LEST WE FORGET: Honoring Our Veterans

[Danger]

A tip of the hat to our vets, both surviving and not.
LEST WE FORGET
And now I must off to the Legion to prepare for tomorrow's ceremonies.

 

[JamesU]

Remembrance day?

tomorrow is veteran's day :p

 

[Smurf]

rememberance day is Canada's version of veterans day. actually its quite a bit different

 

[tribdog]

rememberance day is Canada's version of veterans day. actually its quite a bit different

lol. Canada's version of everything is quite a bit different

 

[ek]

Lest we forget those who gave their lives to preserve the freedoms we enjoy today.

I'll be at the local cenotaph. I encourage others to go as well. But if you can't make it, at least make sure you take a minute or two at 11:00 to remember those who fought.

And don't forget to wear your poppy if you're going anywhere.

 

[ek]

In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

-Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD - Canadian Army

 

[Pengwuino]

We can't celebrate Veterans Day because we might offend someone

 

[Anttech]

In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Not far from where I am right now, there are many many many cemeteries (One has my Grandfather in it, he was a navigator for a pilot for the British Air force, and was shot down 3 months before the end of WW2) dedicated to all the known and unknown soldiers that died in WW2. I have also been to Normandy recently, and the Nazi defenses are still there, and the allied bombs still scare the green fields. Not far from there, you can still see the trenches from WW1..

If I can I'll post some pictures...

We should never forget this day, so another day like this will not happen again

 

[revelator]

We can't celebrate Veterans Day because we might offend someone

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

 

[imabug]

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

sadly, no.

 

[revelator]

sadly, no.

What's the deal then? It's ludicrous to not be able to celebrate a holiday. Who's offended by Veteran's Day?

 

[Astronuc]

Veterans Day spirit remains

It's painfully obvious that the once-noble belief that Nov. 11, 1918 marked the "end of the war to end all wars" did not come to fruition. However, the national event honoring those who serve remains poignant.

This year, as in far too many years past, American soldiers are still fighting, and dying, throughout the world. Their goal is to spread democracy, a system we in America are blessed to live with. However, the spirit of this national day of recognition for veterans resonates with urgency this year.

When first created in 1919, then-President Woodrow Wilson declared the day "will be filled with solemn pride in the heroism of those who died in the country's service and with gratitude for the victory, both because of the thing from which it has freed us and because of the opportunity it has given America to show her sympathy with peace and justice in the councils of the nations."

Those goals toward peace and justice must not be compromised. Yet an increasing number of Americans, 43 percent according to the latest poll, now believe U.S. and British leaders lied about the need to initiate the Iraq war. The conflict of those supporting and those opposing the war within our own country is growing, but that clash should not diminish soldiers' service.

Indeed, war critics and supporters alike should be energized by the goals of that initial day of remembrance that emphasized peace. For 86 years, Americans have been recognizing the 11th day of November as a moment to reflect on the possibilities of a brighter, more peaceful future.

Striving for an end to war and greater international understanding is the best honor Americans can give to the men and women who serve, and have served, in the military. That action looks to a future where citizens can live without fear and soldiers will not be placed in harm's way.

While democracy makes its halting, but hopefully forward, progress in Iraq, our soldiers are fulfilling their duty. And the sooner the Iraqi government is established, the sooner our men and women can return home and be proudly greeted and thanked for the sacrifices they've made. And Americans can once again hope that finally, war will be a thing of the past.

Editorial from my local newspaper.

 

[matthyaouw]

We can't celebrate Veterans Day because we might offend someone

But you can't not have it without offending the veterans... Thats quite a conundrum... Actually, its not a conundrum, its just rediculous.

 

[Entropy]

Who's offended by Veteran's Day?

Well, I'm not exactly offended. I'm apposed to all types of armed services and disargee with everything these people fought and possibly died for. Although I respect their courage, it is not something I would even consider celebrating. But honestly I don't care what other people celebrate.

 

[Danger]

One serious difference between the Canuk and Yank approaches to the day is highlighted in Astro's quote. We do not seek to spread democracy; we seek to uphold peace and prevent the spread of tyranny. You would never catch us invading another country because we don't approve of their political structure. If they try to impose that structure upon someone else, then we'll step into prevent it.

 

[loseyourname]

One serious difference between the Canuk and Yank approaches to the day is highlighted in Astro's quote. We do not seek to spread democracy; we seek to uphold peace and prevent the spread of tyranny. You would never catch us invading another country because we don't approve of their political structure. If they try to impose that structure upon someone else, then we'll step into prevent it.

How on Earth is that a difference in the holiday? Veteran's Day is not a celebration of any particular foreign policy or war. It's a day to remember and celebrate all US veterans of war that survived. Then on Memorial Day we celebrate and remember those who died. Should we exclude from consideration those veterans who served in the War of 1812 (entirely defensive war) or those who served in the Spanish-American War (entirely offensive war) because their war doesn't fit into our ideological view of what war should be?

 

[Danger]

I was going by what the editorial said. It merely points out the difference between an aggressive or a defensive military posture.
We restrict it to one holiday. It honours all past and present military personnel, police officers, and fire/rescue workers, with particular emphasis on those no longer with us.

 

[loseyourname]

I was going by what the editorial said. It merely points out the difference between an aggressive or a defensive military posture.

Yeah, and it's not talking about what the holiday actually means, it's just explicating the writer's personal opinion that we should use the holiday to push his political agenda.

We restrict it to one holiday. It honours all past and present military personnel, police officers, and fire/rescue workers, with particular emphasis on those no longer with us.

Well, that is an actual difference between the holidays. You honor all of those who served. We only honor the survivors today.

 

[Anttech]

Well, I'm not exactly offended. I'm apposed to all types of armed services and disargee with everything these people fought and possibly died for. Although I respect their courage, it is not something I would even consider celebrating. But honestly I don't care what other people celebrate.

Its not a celibration, and it certainly is not to remember Americans ONLY. It is a day to remember ALL those who fought and died during the Great War.. One thing History has taught us is that we have short memories... Nobody wants what happened during the 1st world war to happen again, and one way to stop this from happening again is to highlight and remember what happened on the day it ended.

 

[Anttech]

One serious difference between the Canuk and Yank approaches to the day is highlighted in Astro's quote. We do not seek to spread democracy; we seek to uphold peace and prevent the spread of tyranny. You would never catch us invading another country because we don't approve of their political structure. If they try to impose that structure upon someone else, then we'll step into prevent it..

What was it that Lord Acton said:

"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" Dont think Canada is immune to this, its a flaw with Man, not a nation of Men…

 

[ShawnD]

What's the deal then? It's ludicrous to not be able to celebrate a holiday. Who's offended by Veteran's Day?

November 11 marked the end of WW1. Most people forget what that war was even about, so I'll recap it in point form

-Archduke of Austria is assassinated in Serbia by a member of Black Hand, a Serbian group of rebels or "terrorists"
-Black Hand has known ties to the Serbian government, so Austria demands that Serbia let Austria lead a full investigation on the matter
-Serbia says no you guys suck
-Austria attacks Serbia
-Serbia has ties to Russia, so Russia attacks Austria
-Austria has an alliance with Germany, so Germany attacks Russia
-Russia has an alliance with France, so France attacks Germany ()
-Germany used a plan made up many years before this which meant crossing over Belgium to get to France
-Belgium had a pact with Britain, so Britain attacks Germany

So basically November 11 celebrates the day we supported terrorism. That's how you can see it as offensive.

The non-offensive way would be to say that November 11 marked the end of a war that was about basically nothing. How much of nothing? Ask anybody around you what WW1 was about. I bet you won't find 1 person who actually knows.
This should never happen again.

 

[Danger]

You might have misunderstood my distinction there, Anttech. I meant only to point out that our national identity is as peacekeepers and defenders, not the starters or prolongers of wars that shouldn't happen. Case in point: we sent everything we had against Hitler, but had nothing to do with Viet Nam or Iraq.

 

[ShawnD]

Case in point: we sent everything we had against Hitler, but had nothing to do with Viet Nam or Iraq.

We did some minor stuff in the first Iraq war because it was officially a UN operation (99% of support was American though). Vietnam and Iraq part 2 are not UN operations, so we have no part in them.

 

[Anttech]

So basically November 11 celebrates the day we supported terrorism.

You want elibarate on this?

 

[Anttech]

You might have misunderstood my distinction there, Anttech. I meant only to point out that our national identity is as peacekeepers and defenders, not the starters or prolongers of wars that shouldn't happen. Case in point: we sent everything we had against Hitler, but had nothing to do with Viet Nam or Iraq.

OK... My point was that if you had the Might of the US, you may have gone the same route as them.. You may not have tho.. As you say you have a different 'culture' than the USA... I could go on but I may offend (and I don't want too), so I won't

 

[matthyaouw]

So basically November 11 celebrates the day we supported terrorism.

Barfight analogy- Steve tells dave his girlfriend is a skank. A brawl ensues with steve + drinking buddies and Dave + drinking buddies. Dave pushes down gary (innocent bystander) to get to Steve's buddy, and him and a buddy fight back. That doesn't mean Gary & co think Steve was right to tell Dave his girlfriend is a skank
And who is this "we"? Where does Canada come in?

 

[Danger]

We did some minor stuff in the first Iraq war because it was officially a UN operation

Exactly. We went in defense of Kuwait, not to punish Saddam or take his oil. Even then, our greatest contribution was in civilian oilfield fire suppression, at which we are without question the best in the world. (Red Adair rules!)

OK... My point was that if you had the Might of the US, you may have gone the same route as them.. You may not have tho.. As you say you have a different 'culture' than the USA... I could go on but I may offend (and I don't want too), so I won't

I wouldn't be offended, since you're an outside (neutral) observer of North American society. A few others here might be though, on both sides, so if you want to carry on the discussion you're more than welcome to PM me. Just be forewarned that I'm notoriously lousy at responding promptly.

And who is this "we"? Where does Canada come in?

Canada is a member of the British Commonwealth, and as such is under the rule of England (more in name than anything else now). Our armed forces are part of theirs, under ultimate command of the King (then) or Queen (now).

 

[Smurf]

Canada's hardly perfect. In case people forget, while we were fighting Hitler we had concentration camps of our own for the Japanese.

Oh, and Somalia, and Dresden never would have happened if it weren't for us, and we voted against the UN stopping (or trying to stop) the genocide in East Timor.

We also sent our navy to Korea (which saved a bunch of American lives, interestingly). Residential Schools.

And that's just off the top of my head, really.

 

[Danger]

Correct, Smurf. We are far from angelic. (My girlfriend went to a residential school, incidentally. Her's wasn't nearly as bad as some, but they forced her to write right-handed by tying her left behind her back. )

 

[ShawnD]

You want elibarate on this?

I clearly stated it in the timeline of events. Serbia was haboring terrorists. We (USA, Canada, Britain, Australia, France, Russia, etc) supported Serbia.

It's sort of like the situation Afghanistan had:
Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist, just like Gavrilo Princip.
Bin Laden's group is called Al Qaeda, Princip's group is called Black Hand (he's not the leader of it).
Al Qaeda resides in Afghanistan, Black Hand resides in Serbia.
Al Qaeda killed ~3000 American civilians, Black Hand killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria.
USA said to Afghanistan "hand his ass over", Austria said "we want Dragutin Dimitrijevic, Milan Ciganovic, and Major Voja Tankosic".
Afghanistan says "no", Serbia says "that would violate our constitution"
USA invades Afghanistan, Austria invades Serbia.
USA wins war, Austria pulls most of the world into a war and ends up losing.


The only thing that made WW1 different from other squabbles is how everybody pulled everybody else in. A routine squabble between two countries blew up into a worldwide conflict. We need to remember how and why this happened so it never happens again.

 

[Anttech]

I clearly stated it in the timeline of events. Serbia was haboring terrorists. We (USA, Canada, Britain, Australia, France, Russia, etc) supported Serbia.

Sorry shawn its not clear, and its no where near as simple as that.

 

[ShawnD]

Care to explain how it's different?