Limit of a trigonometric function

chwala
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Homework Statement


Mod note: Edited the following to fix the LaTeX[/B]
compute

##\lim_{n \rightarrow +0} \frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4(2x)}####\lim_{n \rightarrow +\infty} \frac {\sin(x)} x##

##\lim_{n \rightarrow +\infty} \frac {\sin(x)} x##ok find limit as x→0 for the function ##[ 8-9cos x + cos 3x/{sin^4}2x]##

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


use Lhopital rule...
 
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chwala said:

Homework Statement


compute

$$\lim_{n \downarrow 0} {\frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4}2x}$$$$\lim_{n \rightarrow +\infty} {\frac {\sin(x)} x}$$

$$\lim_{n \rightarrow +\infty} {\frac {\sin(x)} x}$$[/B]ok find limit as x→0 for the function ##f(x) = 8-9cos x + cos 3x/{sin^4}(2x) ##

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


use Lhopital rule...

Well, 2 and 3 look alike and don't need L'H rule. You can deal with those yourself, right ? If not, what's the problem ?
1 and 4 are one and the same too ?
 
BvU said:
Well, 2 and 3 look alike and don't need L'H rule. You can deal with those yourself, right ? If not, what's the problem ?
1 and 4 are one and the same too ?
sorry my interest is on 1 only...i was trying to post in latex form by using 2 and 3 as a hint...
 
No need to apologize, we just want to be clear on what we are looking at. So $$
\lim_{n \downarrow 0} {\frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4}(2x)} $$ is the right one ?

(as you see, it's easy to come to the wrong expression...)
 
ok find limit as x→0 for the function ##[ 8-9cos x + cos 3x/{sin^4}2x]##
note that 2x is on the denominator...wish i could post this using latex...
 
Now we are at $$
\lim_{n \downarrow 0} 8-9\; cos x+ { cos 3x \over sin^4 (2x)}
$$ which probably is not what your exercise intended.

o0)
 
not clear post in latex please
 
BvU said:
Now we are at $$\lim_{n \downarrow 0} 8-9\; cos x+ { cos 3x \over sin^4 (2x)} $$ which probably is not what your exercise intended.
I though I did post using LaTex ? What is it that is not clear ?
 
##sin^42x## is the common denominator to all those terms in numerator and not the way you have posted. It is post number 4 which is correct with the only amendment on the 2x, that should be on the denominator as ## sin^4.2x##
 
  • #10
chwala said:
##sin^42x## is the common denominator to all those terms in numerator and not the way you have posted. It is post number 4 which is correct with the only amendment on the 2x, that should be on the denominator as ## sin^4.2x##

Well you have posted it without the nessecary brackets so he couldn't know. He just copies what you wrote in the first post.
 
  • #11
Good. So we are at $$
\lim_{n \downarrow 0} \frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4(2x)}
$$
(the 2x in the wrong place was caused by me unintentionally ).

You mentioned l'Hopital. It is so to say your attempt at solution. What is it and what does it yield here ?
 
  • #12
BvU said:
Good. So we are at $$
\lim_{n \downarrow 0} \frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4(2x)}
$$
(the 2x in the wrong place was caused by me unintentionally ).

You mentioned l'Hopital. It is so to say your attempt at solution. What is it and what does it yield here ?

I doubt that is the exercise though, since the limit does not depend on n, assuming that there is no correlation between n and x.

Most likely, it is: ##\lim_{x \downarrow 0} \frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4(2x)}##
 
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  • #13
chwala said:
ok find limit as x→0 for the function ##[ 8-9cos x + cos 3x/{sin^4}2x]##
note that 2x is on the denominator...wish i could post this using latex...

It would be nice to post in LaTeX, but you can post clear and unambiguous questions simply by using parentheses properly! For example, here is your question in plain text, but using parentheses: (8 - 9 cos(x) + cos(3x))/sin^4(2x). Here is the same thing using in-line LaTeX: ##(8 - 9 \cos x + \cos 3x)/\sin^4(2x)##, and again using "displayed" |aTeX:
\frac{8 - 9 \cos x + \cos 3x}{\sin^4 2x}
The first, plain-text version, is every bit as readable as the LaTeX versions, but of course it looks better. One advantage of the LaTeX versions is the need for fewer parentheses: ##\cos 3x## comes out perfectly clearly without the need for extra parentheses like ##\cos (3x)##. (However, I felt is necessary to use parentheses for clarity in ##\sin^4(2x)## in the in-line version but not in the displayed version.) They are all necessary in the plain text version, but you can sometimes make that easier to read by using different parenthesis style, as in [8 - 9 cos(x) + cos(3x)]/sin^4(2x).
 
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  • #14
Thanks sorry folks i have been on holiday...i will endeavour to look at this when i am free...
 
  • #15
now using LHospital rule, we need to get the first derivative of
##\lim_{x \downarrow 0} \frac {8-9cos x+cos 3x} {sin^4(2x)}## because substituting 0 will give us an indeterminate form...on applying the rule i am getting:,
##\lim_{x \downarrow 0} \frac {9sin x-sin 3x} {8cos 2x.sin^3(2x)}## ok is this step correct?
 
  • #16
chwala said:
now using LHospital rule, we need to get the first derivative of
## \displaystyle \lim_{x \to 0} \frac {8-9\cos x+\cos 3x} {\sin^4(2x)}## because substituting 0 will give us an indeterminate form...on applying the rule i am getting:,
## \displaystyle \lim_{x \to 0} \frac {9\sin x-\sin 3x} {8\cos 2x\cdot\sin^3(2x)}## ok is this step correct?
First of all, you are not taking the derivative of the overall expression. Rather you are taking the derivatives of the numerator and denominator respectively.

You also have a error in the derivative of the numerator.
 
  • #17
SammyS said:
First of all, you are not taking the derivative of the overall expression. Rather you are taking the derivatives of the numerator and denominator respectively.

You also have a error in the derivative of the numerator.
but hospital rule says we take the derivatives indepedently i.e of the numerator and the denominator indepedently.Why should i take the derivative of the whole expression?
 
  • #18
chwala said:
but hospital rule says we take the derivatives indepedently i.e of the numerator and the denominator indepedently.Why should i take the derivative of the whole expression?
Right ! You should not take the derivative of the whole expression. But that's actually what you said you did in post #15 .
 
  • #19
I made a slight mistake...
If ## f(x)= 8-9cos 2x + cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 sin x - 3 sin 3x ##
If ##g(x)= {(sin 2x)^4} ⇒ dg/dx = 8cos 2x{(sin 2x)^3} ##
and this is lhopital's rule what do you mean that i took derivative of whole expression?
 
  • #20
chwala said:
I made a slight mistake...
If ## f(x)= 8-9cos 2x + cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 sin x - 3 sin 3x ##
If ##g(x)= {(sin 2x)^4} ⇒ dg/dx = 8cos 2x{(sin 2x)^3} ##
and this is lhopital's rule what do you mean that i took derivative of whole expression?

He meant that you said in post #15 that you wanted to take the derivative of whole expression.
 
  • #21
Math_QED said:
He meant that you said in post #15 that you wanted to take the derivative of whole expression.
ok are my derivatives in post 19correct?, if so how do i move from there...
 
  • #22
You take the limit for ##x\downarrow 0## :smile: and see what comes out.
 
  • #23
chwala said:
ok are my derivatives in post 19correct?, if so how do i move from there...
df/dx is wrong. Try to find the correct derivative of that function.
 
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  • #24
Math_QED said:
df/dx is wrong. Try to find the correct derivative of that function.
##df/dx##? i don't understand...
 
  • #25
f is short for numerator, like in: f/g.
 
  • #26
BvU said:
You take the limit for ##x\downarrow 0## :smile: and see what comes out.
as x→0, we get 0, indeterminate form , meaning we should differentiate again?
 
  • #27
Math_QED said:
df/dx is wrong. Try to find the correct derivative of that function.
posts 22 and 23 are contradicting...
 
  • #28
No. I overlooked your error. MQ did not.
 
  • #29
chwala said:
I made a slight mistake...
If ## f(x)= 8-9\cos 2x + \cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 \sin x - 3 \sin 3x ##
If ##g(x)= {(\sin 2x)^4} ⇒ dg/dx = 8\cos 2x{(\sin 2x)^3} ##
and this is lhopital's rule what do you mean that i took derivative of whole expression?
As Math_QED state there is a (small) error in your expression for ##\ df/dx \ .\ ## Likely it's a typo.
 
  • #30
It's complicated helping you. What you wrote was

If ##f(x)= 8-9\cos 2x + \cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 \sin x - 3 sin 3x##

What you meant to write was $$f(x)= 8-9\cos x + \cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 \sin x - 3 \sin 3x$$

Now you have the derivative for the numerator and the derivative for the denominator. Both go to 0 for ##\ x\downarrow 0\ ##, so you end up with '0/0' and you have to do it again - and again
 
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  • #31
BvU said:
It's complicated helping you. What you wrote was

If ##f(x)= 8-9\cos 2x + \cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 \sin x - 3 sin 3x##

What you meant to write was $$f(x)= 8-9\cos x + \cos 3x ⇒ df/dx = 9 \sin x - 3 \sin 3x$$

Now you have the derivative for the numerator and the derivative for the denominator. Both go to 0 for ##\ x\downarrow 0\ ##, so you end up with '0/0' and you have to do it again - and again
hahahahahahahhahaha BVU sometimes the brain goes off yeah you get the indeterminate form 0/0, let's do it all over again...thanks
 
  • #32
now if ## f'(x) = 9 sin x-3sin 3x## , → ## f''(x) = 9cos x -9 cos 3x##
and
## g'(x) = 8cos 2x(sin 2x)^3 ##, →##g''(x)= -16(sin 2x)^4 + 96 (sin 2x)^2 (cos 2x)^2##
is this correct? substituting limits will still give 0/0
 
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  • #33
That's why I added the ... and again ...
If you do it right, the sequence will come to a satisfying end, and then we will hand you a quasi-alternative approach that works a little faster (and marginally less error prone as well).
 
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  • #34
BvU said:
That's why I added the ... and again ...
If you do it right, the sequence will come to a satisfying end, and then we will hand you a quasi-alternative approach that works a little faster (and marginally less error prone as well).
BvU said:
That's why I added the ... and again ...
If you do it right, the sequence will come to a satisfying end, and then we will hand you a quasi-alternative approach that works a little faster (and marginally less error prone as well).
is step 32 correct?
 
  • #35
Haha, just suppose I am too lazy to check it :smile: and simply wait for the final answer - which I calculated yesterday on a piece of paper I accidentally discarded :rolleyes: , Carry on !
 
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  • #36
Glad you take it like a good sport. My point is that I carefully try to seduce you to build up some self-confidence in the things you already are quite able to do and check by yourself (just look at the careful formulation :smile: !). A bit of tenacity and stubbornness can come in quite useful, and you can always go back and check steps later on.
 
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  • #37
chwala said:
is step 32 correct?
It looks like you need to do at least one more step.

Added in Edit:
Well, if you're correct in post #32, that one more step also gives the form 0/0 .

A step after that should give you something good.

Added in 2nd Edit:

In the expression for g''(x) in post #32, the 96 should be 48 instead.

Added in 3rd Edit:

Have you tried Taylor expansions of numerator & denominator ?
 
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  • #38
agreed seen the mistake ## g''(x)=-16(sin 2x)^4+ 8cos 2x.(3(sin 2x)^2.2 cos 2x)## → ##g''(x)=-16(sin 2x)^4+48(sin2x)^2.cos 2x##
 
  • #39
now ##f'''(x)= -9 sin x +27 sin 3x##
## f'''(x) = 27 sin 3x - 9 sin x##
##g'''(x)= -64(sin 2x)^3.2cos 2x+ 192sin 2x.(cos 2x)^2+48(sin 2x)^2.-2sin 2x##
##g'''(x)= -128 (sin 2x)^3.cos 2x+192sin 2x(cos 2x)^2-96(sin 2x)^3##
again here we get the indeterminate form 0/0
##f''''(x)=81 cos 3x-9cos x##
##g''''(x)= 256(sin 2x)^4-384(sin 2x)^2.cos 2x+384(cos 2x)^3-384(sin 2x)^2cos 2x-576(sin 2x)^2cos 2x##
##g''''(x)=256(sin 2x)^4-384(sin 2x)^2.cos 2x+384(cos 2x)^3-960(sin 2x)^2.cos 2x##
##g''''(x)=256(sin 2x)^4-1344(sin 2x)^2cos 2x##
is this step correct...do we reduce ##sin 2x=2 sin x cos x##?
and ##cos 3x=cos(x+2x)=cos x.cos2x-sinx.sin2x##
are these steps necessary, let's try we close this...long since i looked at Taylor series...
 
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  • #40
I recognize ##f''''##. It no longer gives zero but 72 for ##x \downarrow 0##.
The numerator also gives nonzero for ##x \downarrow 0##, but there I expect 384 (just a hunch :smile:) so there is something to be improved.

Reducing isn't desired at all here, just taking the limit is enough once the numerator gives nonzero.
 
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  • #41
Both the numerator and the denominator can be expressed as polynomials of cos(x) and then applying L'Hospital is much easier.
 
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  • #42
chwala said:
agreed seen the mistake ## g''(x)=-16(sin 2x)^4+ 8cos 2x.(3(sin 2x)^2.2 cos 2x)## → ##g''(x)=-16(sin 2x)^4+48(sin2x)^2.cos 2x##
Poor Chwala. Lost in ciphering.$$
g''(x)=-16(sin 2x)^4+ 8cos 2x.(3(sin 2x)^2.2 cos 2x)\rightarrow \\ g''(x)=-16 \sin^4 2x+48 \sin^2 2x \cos^2 2x$$ ##\quad## The last ##\cos 2x## needs to be squared. The easy check is that the sum of powers is and stays 4.

[edit] you still had that square in post #32 so I'll consider it as a sloppy typo. Painful, becasue you build on it afterwards.

(PS you want to use \cos and \sin =instead of cos and sin in ##\TeX##)​
If you don't like spoilers, don't read the remainder of this post :smile:)

Here's the helping hand so you can concentrate on thinking:
$$ g'''(x)= -128 (sin 2x)^3.cos 2x+192sin 2x(cos 2x)^2-96(sin 2x)^3 $$
now becomes
$$g'''(x)= -128 \sin^3 2x \cos 2x + 192 \sin 2x \cos^3 2x - 192 \sin^3 2x \cos 2x $$
note the cosine has a power 3, not 2, in the middle term​

and here my natural laziness takes over: I have already seen that ##\ f''''\ ## goes to nonzero for ##\ x\downarrow 0\ ## so I am not interested in terms of ##\ g''''\ ## that do go to zero -- the ones with sines in them. That leaves $$ g''''(x)= 384 \cos^4 2x + \text {sine terms}$$ (really happy with the 384 :rolleyes: )

At this point we look back and check what we've done. If so desired, a numerical check on the calculator or in excel ( x f g f/g, respectively):
Fortran:
0.1000 0.0002990016233728 0.0015578416669531 0.191933
0.0100 0.0000000299989995 0.0000001599573385 0.187544
0.0010 0.0000000000029995 0.0000000000160000 0.187469
0.0001 0.0000000000000000 0.0000000000000016 0.000000
(I have big problems getting equal spacing fonts in PF that respect spacing and tabbing :H )

As you see, f and g race to zero very rapidly -- which is in line with our having to differentiate four times. And 72/384 = 0.1875 so that looks fine !

----

If you are all happy and content with this result, we are going to look at what I dangled in front of you in post #33 (and Sammy mentioned it in post #37) and what Elizabeth brought in in post #41.
 
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  • #43
lol...i must have been tired oooh yeah,i left out ##384(cos2x)^3## limit becomes ##{72/384}##
 
  • #44
BvU said:
I recognize ##f''''##. It no longer gives zero but 72 for ##x \downarrow 0##.
The numerator also gives nonzero for ##x \downarrow 0##, but there I expect 384 (just a hunch :smile:) so there is something to be improved.

Reducing isn't desired at all here, just taking the limit is enough once the numerator gives nonzero.
small error you meant denominator not numerator...
 
  • #45
chwala said:
small error you meant denominator not numerator...
Correct. Sorry.

Now, what about his Taylor series approach ? As you see from the description, it's a way to write a function as a polynomial where the derivatives appear in the coefficients. So instead of differentiating numerator and denominator until one of the two is nonzero in the limit, you look at these coefficients.

Note: I don't think I ever heard of l'Hôpital until I started to 'work' for PF.​

In the toolkit of nearly all scientists there is the first (or sometimes a few) of these Taylor coefficients for frequently occurring functions. They are extremely useful for estimating behaviour af composite functions, for taking limits, for estimation, numerical procedures etc, etc. In this exercise we need

upload_2016-8-26_9-37-56.png

upload_2016-8-26_9-38-41.png

(pictures from Wikipedia - having a hard time letting them appear as pictures)​

I had to look them up, for a reason:

'Everyone' knows that 'sine goes like x' and that 'cosine goes like ##\ 1-x^2/2\ ## for small x. But your slightly sadistic exercise composer carefully concocted a quotient that goes to zero like ##\ {ax^4\over b x^4}\ ##.

In the denominator you see a ##\ 2x^4\ ## as the first nonzero term in the Taylor series. So in this exercise the denominator goes like ##\ 16 x^4 \ ##And that's all you need to know for this exercise (that sure beats differentiating four times and derailing once or twice on the way, doesn't it ?). If the numerator goes like 'x to the less than four' the limit doesn't exist and for 'x to the more than four' the limit is zero.

And in the numerator some work is required, for the first coefficients are 'coincidentally' canceling: 9-8+1 . And so is the next coefficient (for ##\ x^2\ : \ 9 * {1\over 2} - {1\over 2} * 9 \ ##) so we need terms up to ##x^4## (of course -- look at the denominator).

And even lazy me was curious enough to work on $$ - 9\left (1-{x^2\over 2} + {x^4\over 24}\right ) + \left (1-{(3x)^2\over 2} + {(3x)^4\over 24}\right )$$ until I had ##\ {72\over 24 }\ ##. (That's why I expected 384 = 16 * 24 in your final denominator fourth derivative). Granted, it's work, but a lot less work than differentiating four times and derailing once or twice on the way.

- - - -

So much for the lecture notes. I called this a quasi-alternative approach because you still work with the derivatives that are tucked away in the coefficients of the Taylor series.

@ehild came (#41) with the suggestion to express numerator and denominator as polynomials of cosines. I still see a lot of work coming at me to then do l'Hôpital but perhaps she saw a shorter path through ?
 
  • #46
BvU said:
Note: I don't think I ever heard of l'Hôpital until I started to 'work' for PF.​
At this part of the world, l'Hospital rule is taught first, as a method to find the limit of functions f(x)/g(x) when the limit of both f and g are zero. Taylor and Maclauren series come later.

BvU said:
@ehild came (#41) with the suggestion to express numerator and denominator as polynomials of cosines. I still see a lot of work coming at me to then do l'Hôpital but perhaps she saw a shorter path through ?
Yes, the Taylor series method is easier, if somebody is familiar with it.
Transforming the numerator and denominator to polynomials of cos(x) requires high-school trigonometry only.
The result is $$\frac{1}{4}\left(\frac{2-3y+y^3}{y^4-2y^6+y^8}\right)$$ where y=cos(x), and we have to take the limit when y-->1. It needs l'Hopital twice.
 
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  • #47
ehild said:
At this part of the world, l'Hospital rule is taught first, as a method to find the limit of functions f(x)/g(x) when the limit of both f and g are zero. Taylor and Maclauren series come later.
Same here in my part of the world (U.S.).
 
  • #48
Dutch are pragmatic.
 
  • #49
BvU said:
...

@ehild came (#41) with the suggestion to express numerator and denominator as polynomials of cosines. I still see a lot of work coming at me to then do l'Hôpital but perhaps she saw a shorter path through ?
Just need to get cos(3x) in terms of cos(x):
##\cos(3x)=4\cos^3(x)-3\cos(x)##​
The derivative of the numerator is then ##\ 12\sin^3(x)\ .##

The derivative of the denominator then has a factor of ##\ \sin^3(2x)\ ## which is easily reduced.

##\sin^3(x)\ ## in both numerator & denominator cancel. The answer is readily at hand.

+ + + + for @ehild !
 
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  • #50
BvU said:
Dutch are pragmatic.
Or you just missed the lecture about l'Hospital rule ?? :wink:
 
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