News Lindsey Graham's Modification of 14th Amendment

[Cyrus]

http://newsroom.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/26/u-s-citizens-deported/

US citizens are accidentally deported because it's tough to establish whether someone is a citizen or not when paperwork is missing. It would be insane if along with a birth certificate you needed proof that your parents were in the country legally

Why would you need papers that your parents were in the country legally?

 

[Evo]

Why would you need papers that your parents were in the country legally?

They weren't born in the US and their parents weren't US citizens when they were born. BIG difference.

 

[Cyrus]

They weren't born in the US and their parents weren't US citizens when they were born. BIG difference.

So why do they need their parents papers, all they need is their own papers.

 

[Evo]

So why do they need their parents papers, all they need is their own papers.

In the case reported, his mother never filled out the papers that would have shown his naturalization.

 

[Cyrus]

In the case reported, his mother never filled out the papers.

<mind boggled> How do you forget to fill out the paperwork for your kids citizenship.

 

[Evo]

<mind boggled> How do you forget to fill out the paperwork for your kids citizenship.

Well, according to the report, if you believe in magic, everyone will know. In other words, fill out the paperwork. Get your kid naturalization papers and a social security card. Boom, proof of citizenship. That way, when they go to prison, they won't have to prove their citizenship like that guy did.

 

[edward]

We always ask what was the original intent of an amendment. In this case it appears to have little to do with immigration. The writers of this amendment, appropriate at the time, could have had no idea that there would be an anchor baby issue in the distant future.

The Fourteenth Amendment (Amendment XIV) to the United States Constitution was adopted on July 9, 1868 as one of the Reconstruction Amendments.

Its Citizenship Clause provides a broad definition of citizenship that overruled the decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857), which held that blacks could not be citizens of the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Emphasis mine.


We have a lot of people coming to this country who only want to make money. They don't really care about becoming Americans and they don't bother to learn English.

 

[Evo]

We always ask what was the original intent of an amendment. In this case it appears to have little to do with immigration. The writers of this amendment, appropriate at the time, could have had no idea that there would be an anchor baby issue in the distant future.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Emphasis mine.


We have a lot of people coming to this country who only want to make money. They don't really care about becoming Americans and they don't bother to learn English.

I have to agree. Times change and no one could have forseen what would happen. Laws need to change to keep up with what is happening.

 

[hamster143]

We have a lot of people coming to this country who only want to make money. They don't really care about becoming Americans and they don't bother to learn English.

I could counter that why should they care about doing something that they can't legally do (becoming Americans)? As for the language, their children do end up learning English.

 

[Cyrus]

I could counter that why should they care about doing something that they can't legally do (becoming Americans)? As for the language, their children do end up learning English.

And that excuses them for not learning English, why?

 

[edward]

I could counter that why should they care about doing something that they can't legally do (becoming Americans)? As for the language, their children do end up learning English.

Many of those children are already of school age and must be taught English at tax payer expense. The effect that they have had on our hospital emergency rooms is deplorable.

 

[hamster143]

And that excuses them for not learning English, why?

What makes you think that they don't learn English?

Many of those children are already of school age and must be taught English at tax payer expense. The effect that they have had on our hospital emergency rooms is deplorable.

We're talking about 4% of the population of the country, primarily healthy non-elderly people. Would our hospital emergency rooms suddenly stop being deplorable if we instantaneously reduced the population by 4%?

 

[edward]

What makes you think that they don't learn English?



We're talking about 4% of the population of the country, primarily healthy non-elderly people. Would our hospital emergency rooms suddenly stop being deplorable if we instantaneously reduced the population by 4%?

You presume that they are evenly spead out across the country. That is not true.

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...p+house+phoenix+&gs_rfai=&fp=f9519659d5d079d0

They have no doctors and no insurance. they show up at our emergency rooms for illnesses and injuries that could be treated elsewhere. Fedeal law requires the ER's to treat them

I won't go into details but my wife recently spent five hours in extreme pain waiting in an ER. About half of the people there were non english speaking hispanics. Enough is Enough.

 

[Office_Shredder]

They have no doctors and no insurance. they show up at our emergency rooms for illnesses and injuries that could be treated elsewhere. Fedeal law requires the ER's to treat them

I won't go into details but my wife recently spent five hours in extreme pain waiting in an ER. About half of the people there were non english speaking hispanics. Enough is Enough.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/er-wait-times-longer-survey/story?id=11240084

It's bad, but it's not like the problem of overcrowded emergency rooms is a uniquely Arizona phenomenon. In fact, 5 hours is faster than average in some states.

Considering also that the ER is not strictly first come first serve, and 'in pain' probably doesn't rank high on the pecking order of selection, I'd say you need more compelling evidence than your anecdote

 

[hamster143]

Y

They have no doctors and no insurance. they show up at our emergency rooms for illnesses and injuries that could be treated elsewhere. Fedeal law requires the ER's to treat them

I won't go into details but my wife recently spent five hours in extreme pain waiting in an ER. About half of the people there were non english speaking hispanics. Enough is Enough.

Two points:

- Our emergency rooms suck badly even in places where hispanics are non existent.

- Three out of four hispanics in the United States are here legally.

 

[Cyrus]

What makes you think that they don't learn English?

I was giving response to a comment Edward made to you. I never said if they do, or don't, bother to learn English. What I did do was challenge your position on why, assuming they don't speak English, it is 'ok' because 'eventually their kids learn it'.

 

[Cyrus]

- Three out of four hispanics in the United States are here legally.

One third of a big number, is still a big number. Even if one Hispanic is here illegally, that's unacceptable.

 

[hamster143]

I never said if they do, or don't, bother to learn English. What I did do was challenge your position on why, assuming they don't speak English, it is 'ok' because 'eventually their kids learn it'.

Straw man. Neither did I imply that it's not 'ok' for them to learn English.

Even if one Hispanic is here illegally, that's unacceptable.

Moving the goalpost. The existence of one illegal Hispanic is obviously irrelevant to the problem of overcrowded ERs.

 

[Cyrus]

Straw man. Neither did I imply that it's not 'ok' for them to learn English.

So we agree then, it is not acceptable for them to come to this country (illegally) and not bother to learn English (the ones that don't). Furthermore, it is not acceptable for them to come to this country (illegally) and learn the language. The first case being more egregious than the second.

Moving the goalpost. The existence of one illegal Hispanic is obviously irrelevant to the problem of overcrowded ERs.

To be clear, I was not making that statement in relation to overcrowded ERs, I was making that statement as to the status of illegal aliens in this country in general. Even one illegal is not acceptable.

Going back to your 1/4th of all Hispanics are illegal, that accounts for a staggering 9.37million illegals! Completely unacceptable!

 

[adaptation]

When I read the tittle of this thread, I expected a bunch of people in here bashing the proposed change. Oops.

Illegal immigration is a failure of United States policy. There is a lot we could be doing to curb the tide. I don't mean building walls.

What evidence is there that the proposed change will have any effect on people crossing the border? It is a speculative maneuver at best. It's reactionary and fails to address that heart of the matter.

I should know better than to get involved in these types of discussions. Nobody is ever open minded enough to actually get anywhere... Caution, rant imminent:

*commence rant*
I'm utterly shocked at the responses of some of you. Many of you are xenophobic or simply (semi)closeted biggots. America is currently viewed as an incredibly racist, money hungry, deceitful, warmongering, bully, child because of people like you.

It is obvious to me that you have not spent any time living in the international community. They are trying to learn English. And by "they", I mean the nationals of every non-native English speaking country who can afford to learn. English is the most spoken language on this planet, and English education is a huge business. Learning is a process. Unfortunately, in many cases it's easier to get into The United States than it is to learn English.

Do you have any idea of why South America and Central America are the way the way they are right now? Are you familiar with chickens coming home to roost? Try reading a little bit about the United States' hand in the ruination of that part of the world.

You do understand that the US was founded by immigrants, right? Not one of them had a green card. In fact, I seem to recall there was some trouble with the previous occupants... You get the fact that the US is supposed to be a shining glorious bastion of liberty and justice for all? We're supposed to be the most free country in the world. We're supposed to be setting an example to all nations, creating a legacy of freedom.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Is that just something written on a statue to you or does it actually mean anything? Have the children of illegal immigrants really hurt you so much that you would deny them the very principals upon which our country and our freedom are based?
*end rant*

Ahhh... I feel better. Thanks for letting me vent

 

[Jack21222]

And that excuses them for not learning English, why?

English is not the official language of the United States. I don't care if an immigrant learns English or not.

 

[cronxeh]

Forget to file is the equivalent of incompetence as a human being. Simply put, evolve or be thrown out of the country

 

[Gokul43201]

From what I see, the US is a multi-cultural country like very few others. For a quick comparison, I choose the UK and France, two other developed nations with a reasonable immigrant community. One would expect, from the criticism here, and from the fact that the UK and France are members of the EU, which protects free movement of labor, that there would be a huge disparity in their treatment of immigrants. Here's what I know:

Unlike the UK and France, which have an official language, the US does not. And neither the UK nor France has bilingual education for immigrants. Both countries, however, do provide bilingual education for natives that speak languages endemic to the region (like Occitan and Franco-Provençal, in parts of France, and Welsh, Gaelic and Cornish, in parts of the UK). Also, closer to the topic of this thread, unlike the UK and France, which do NOT grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants, the US (so far) does.

The US has been accused in this thread of being particularly xenophobic (especially from the point of view of other countries). Anyone care to substantiate that claim?

 

[Cyrus]

English is not the official language of the United States. I don't care if an immigrant learns English or not.

I'm well aware it is not, nor did I claim it was. If you care or not is your opinion, which you are free to hold.

 

[Cyrus]

What evidence is there that the proposed change will have any effect on people crossing the border? It is a speculative maneuver at best. It's reactionary and fails to address that heart of the matter.

Debatable; however, it does send a very strong message and less incentives illegal immigration.

I should know better than to get involved in these types of discussions. Nobody is ever open minded enough to actually get anywhere... Caution, rant imminent:

We'll see how well you fare.

*commence rant*
I'm utterly shocked at the responses of some of you. Many of you are xenophobic or simply (semi)closeted biggots. America is currently viewed as an incredibly racist, money hungry, deceitful, warmongering, bully, child because of people like you.

It's usually not a good idea to preface your argument with your own foot in your mouth.

It is obvious to me that you have not spent any time living in the international community. They are trying to learn English. And by "they", I mean the nationals of every non-native English speaking country who can afford to learn. English is the most spoken language on this planet, and English education is a huge business. Learning is a process. Unfortunately, in many cases it's easier to get into The United States than it is to learn English.

Good for them, I'm glad they are trying to learn English (honestly). However, that does not excuse the illegality of their status in my country.

Do you have any idea of why South America and Central America are the way the way they are right now? Are you familiar with chickens coming home to roost? Try reading a little bit about the United States' hand in the ruination of that part of the world.

Sigh...yes, poor Central and South America. Nothing is their own fault, everything is our fault. Om-nom-nom, eat that foot!

You do understand that the US was founded by immigrants, right? Not one of them had a green card. In fact, I seem to recall there was some trouble with the previous occupants... You get the fact that the US is supposed to be a shining glorious bastion of liberty and justice for all? We're supposed to be the most free country in the world. We're supposed to be setting an example to all nations, creating a legacy of freedom.

Why is this relevant? The US requires legal status for people and commerce entering into its boarders, today. I don't give a flying freight-train about how immigration was handled in 1920. The above paragraph reads as a bunch of feel good platitudes. Freedom, liberty and justice for all does not mean open boarders, do you even have any notion of what the words "Freedom, liberty and Justice for all" even means? If you don't (and you don't), then simply ask someone on here to explain it to you.

Is that just something written on a statue to you or does it actually mean anything? Have the children of illegal immigrants really hurt you so much that you would deny them the very principals upon which our country and our freedom are based?
*end rant*

I was not aware that writing on statutes trump laws these days. To end my reply to your long winded post, no one is denying them the very principles on which our country was based, but what you are doing is denying those principles to people that apply to enter the states through the appropriate legal process.

 

[drankin]

Is that just something written on a statue to you or does it actually mean anything? Have the children of illegal immigrants really hurt you so much that you would deny them the very principals upon which our country and our freedom are based?
*end rant*

Ahhh... I feel better. Thanks for letting me vent

It's a great quote. It's not part of our Constitution. The spirit of that quote is practiced in a legal manner. We have a system of immigration. Even when we were coming here in droves off the boats in the day.

We do need a physical barrier between our two countries and guards to protect it. There is absolutely nothing else that can prevent undocumented, illegal, pathologically unchecked persons from migrating here and diluting our labor resources.

It's easy to call someone a bigot by definition when they strongly disagree with you.

 

[cronxeh]

It's easy to call someone a bigot by definition when they strongly disagree with you.

So what? Yes I am a bigot. What are they going to do about it? Show me their papers before they run their mouth. And make sure their kids are here legally, too. There is always some agenda there, and knowing people they are trying to gain favors for a personal cause. People are just that selfish, but when you as a whole nation acting selfish they get all rattled and discombobulated. How can you Americans be so selfish, you rich pigs - let us in and let us have your riches! How about, no?

 

[edward]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/er-wait-times-longer-survey/story?id=11240084

It's bad, but it's not like the problem of overcrowded emergency rooms is a uniquely Arizona phenomenon. In fact, 5 hours is faster than average in some states.

Considering also that the ER is not strictly first come first serve, and 'in pain' probably doesn't rank high on the pecking order of selection, I'd say you need more compelling evidence than your anecdote

But then you were not there were you?

This is not my first trip to an emergency room in Tucson for Gods sake. It is obvious to residents how the situation has changed since we have been flooded with illegals.

My wife would have died had I not called our family physician to intervene. He came to the emergency room which is damn unusuall these days. My wife was rushed to surgery immediately.

My other alternative was to take my wife to a new hospital 20 miles away. The illegals don't go there because it is too far to drive!

 

[apeiron]

The US has been accused in this thread of being particularly xenophobic (especially from the point of view of other countries). Anyone care to substantiate that claim?

I would suggest the basic driver here is something else - US levels of inequality, the gap between its haves and have nots. So it is not an ethnic based tension being expressed but an economic one.

See this reference to Pew research.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/the-divided-states-of-america/

 

[Gokul43201]

I would suggest the basic driver here is something else - US levels of inequality, the gap between its haves and have nots. So it is not an ethnic based tension being expressed but an economic one.

See this reference to Pew research.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/the-divided-states-of-america/

Are you saying also that this is a fair justification ... that it's reasonable to call the US xenophobic because it has a higher income disparity than say, countries in the EU (irrespective of its actual policies regarding immigration)?