News Lindsey Graham's Modification of 14th Amendment

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Congressman Lindsey Graham's proposal to modify the 14th Amendment aims to prevent children born to illegal immigrant parents from automatically receiving U.S. citizenship. Proponents argue that this change would not reward illegal behavior and would discourage illegal immigration. Critics counter that punishing children for their parents' actions is unjust, as these children have committed no crime and may face significant hardships, such as lack of access to healthcare and education, if denied citizenship. The debate highlights differing views on immigration, human rights, and the responsibilities of the U.S. government versus the actions of foreign governments, particularly Mexico. Some participants express concern over the implications of such a law on innocent children, while others emphasize the need to uphold legal immigration standards and discourage illegal entry into the U.S. The discussion also touches on the broader challenges of immigration policy and the realities faced by those seeking a better life.
  • #121
Cyrus said:
I want free school, gimme that too. It's my RIGHT.

Did you read that either? It says that elementary and fundamental education should be free, and that higher education should be accessible to all based upon merit and not on the ability to pay. Obviously, the US does not uphold the latter!

That's it I am running for office, and don't you dare attack my honor or reputation as Corrupt Governor Cyrus!

Cyrus, what does the word "arbitrary" mean in the first line of the article you quoted?
 
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  • #122
Thanks for the UDHR stuff. Article 15 looks like the answer to the Nationalism thread. Too bad I can't link on a Wii...
 
  • #123
cristo said:
Did you read that either? It says that elementary and fundamental education should be free, and that higher education should be accessible to all based upon merit and not on the ability to pay. Obviously, the US does not uphold the latter!

You'll have to excuse us silly AMURIKANS, with our top higher education system in the world.
 
  • #124
cristo said:
Cyrus, what does the word "arbitrary" mean in the first line of the article you quoted?

Don't you dare try to have satire about me on late night programs, that would be an arbitrary attack of my character! I'll sue you! (see larry flynt vs falwell).
 
  • #125
Cyrus said:
You'll have to excuse us silly AMURIKANS, with our top higher education system in the world.

Top higher education system? I must have missed that memo.
 
  • #126
cristo said:
Top higher education system? I must have missed that memo.

You know, ...MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Harvard, etc.

Article 25 Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance.

Yay for government handouts!
 
  • #128
cristo said:
Oh, I see, you mean the universities that are (mostly) ranked lower than the British universities. :wink:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educ...0/02/25/worlds-best-universities-top-400.html

The US has 6 of the top 10 schools on that list, and 13 of the top 20.

Arguing whether the US or UK has a better university system based on a world ranking list is fairly arbitrary and does little to further the discussion at hand.

Going back to the declaration of human rights, I don't see how a document can propose to call itself a list of fundamental human rights when it states that education should be compulsory. Making something compulsory is in fact the opposite of declaring something a "right".
 
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  • #129
russ_watters said:
The cause is this: Rights are protections, not financial gifts - healthcare has no basis for being called a "right" and does not fit with the concept of rights. By taking things that have no logical/philosophical/theoretical basis as rights and granting them the status of rights, you create the above incongruity. It is fine that you believe that the government should be made to provide such things, but they are not rights, they are simply government services like roads and museums.

Rights are human constructions. For example, free speech is a right, but it is also a property. According to the Bill of Rights, I have the right to free speech. According to article one of the constitution, I also have the right to own such speech under copyright law. I have the right to sell my speech, and I have the right to sue others who 'borrow' my speech. But a question arises, do I have absolute free speech? Obviously, I do not because I cannot reproduce your free speech unless I independently create it or license it from you. So in theory, I do not have complete freedom of speech. There are other snags on speech, but the point is that it is all artificial. Rights may be defined as what you can do without getting into some kind of legal trouble. An even better definition would be: A right is what is expected of the government that rules the population.

Can health-care be called a right? I suppose it depends on how a person views the *right* to live. Do people deserve life? Not a very good question I suppose. A better question may be: Should governments do everything within their power to protect the lives of their citizens? Military is often said to exist for such purposes. One often hears governments declare that the military is protecting citizens. So would health-care also protect citizens? I think so for several reasons.

1. Obviously, access to health-care saves lives.
2. Not so obvious, sickness spreads throughout a population. By denying a certain portion of the population access to health-care, the other portion with access may have an increased chance of becoming sick. Why? Sickness is often contagious. Although health-care may first appear a "financial gift", one may be protecting oneself and becoming less sick.
3. Very not so obvious, a lot of people without health-care may be doing 'self-treatments.' For example, one has went to the doctor and has left over antibiotics and gives the remaining antibiotics to the person without health-care. The antibiotics are used improperly, and the bug develops resistance to antibiotics making it more difficult to treat. The 'hard-working and financially independent' person comes along and catches said sickness, and he or she has a very difficult time getting rid of the bug because the bug has developed a resistance to the antibiotics. The person spends a lot of money, loses productivity, and may even lose some functionality.

In a basic nutshell, I would not call health-care a gift; instead, I would say it is in the best interest of self preservation even when the health-care is provided to others at some expense to yourself.
 
  • #130
Cyrus said:
LOL, the declaration of human toilet paper, as I call it. It's great for wiping one's backside.

Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.

Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?

The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html

So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?
 
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  • #131
apeiron said:
Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.

Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?

The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html

So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?

Since when is this a discussion about undermining social structures? Your bias clouds your arguments to the point of making them irrelevant to the topic.

We don't want illegal immigration and we don't want their babies.
 
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  • #132
...and we don't want their drugs. Oil, on the other hand, is a mutually beneficial legal export.
 
  • #133
apeiron said:
Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.

The document is a nice gesture.


Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?

The cartels are the largest problem. At one time, the immigrants returned home after they worked in the US and started businesses. As the cartels grew more and more powerful, things started to change. I've spoken with a few of the immigrants, and they say that when they return home to start a business, the cartels are moving in and taking it over. In addition, it is very dangerous. Some of the cartels control parts of the country and impose their own laws and taxes. So for now, they are staying inside of America.

So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?

The United States is not undermining anything. Mexico simply has a very weak and highly corrupt government. The error of the United States is ignoring the problem.
 
  • #134
One thing at a time.
apeiron said:
Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?

The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html

So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?
Are you seriously suggesting that the US is to be blamed for undermining the social structure of Mexico by purchasing the oil that Mexico wants to export? You would prefer that the US impose an embargo on Mexican Oil?
 
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  • #135
apeiron said:
Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.

Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?

The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html

Ohhh, now I see ...the rest of the world wants to use MY money to benefit THEIR social problems, and cry foul if I don't give it up. Hmmmmmm, yeah. No. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #136
cristo said:
Did you read that either? It says that elementary and fundamental education should be free, and that higher education should be accessible to all based upon merit and not on the ability to pay. Obviously, the US does not uphold the latter!
Higher education in this country is available for free through grants and scholarships to those with surpassing merit and an inability to pay. Those who can pay must pay. Those who can not pay but are not necessarily of great merit may have access to loans and such to help pay and may have those loans deferred, or even forgiven, if they choose to take on certain professions that directly benefit their community.

SixNein said:
In a basic nutshell, I would not call health-care a gift; instead, I would say it is in the best interest of self preservation even when the health-care is provided to others at some expense to yourself.
I do not consider health care a "right" though it is my personal opinion that medical professionals have a duty to preform services for their community and that the state is obligated to financially assist all those that directly provide such essential services to the community in so far as is practicable. Taking an angle from this direction seems much more logical to me. The case could be made that the US government does not do all that is practicable to provide for such services and I would not necessarily disagree.
 
  • #137
Simply posting up the UN's Universal (self declared) Declaration of Human Rights as to what is, or is not, a right is an argument from authority.
 
  • #138
russ_watters said:
...and we don't want their drugs.
Well we don't want the violence, crime and border disorder that comes with it. Clearly many want Mexican drugs, even the odd non-inhaling US President.
 
  • #139
Cyrus said:
Ohhh, now I see ...the rest of the world wants to use MY money to benefit THEIR social problems, and cry foul if I don't give it up. Hmmmmmm, yeah. No. :rolleyes:

You don't get it. Your money is creating their social problems. And when some of these problems spill over onto your territory, you bleat self pityingly.
 
  • #140
apeiron said:
Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?

Cite?
 
  • #141
apeiron said:
You don't get it. Your money is creating their social problems. And when some of these problems spill over onto your territory, you bleat self pityingly.

Woe is Mexico.

Side question, do you live in the US, or Europe?
 
  • #142
CRGreathouse said:
Cite?

Yes, I did :zzz:.

Click? No you didn't.
 
  • #143
Cyrus said:
Woe is Mexico.

Side question, do you live in the US, or Europe?

Neither.
 
  • #144
apeiron said:
Neither.

Mexico? LOL.
 
  • #145
SixNein said:
Rights are human constructions. For example, free speech is a right, but it is also a property. According to the Bill of Rights, I have the right to free speech. According to article one of the constitution, I also have the right to own such speech under copyright law. I have the right to sell my speech, and I have the right to sue others who 'borrow' my speech. But a question arises, do I have absolute free speech? Obviously, I do not because I cannot reproduce your free speech unless I independently create it or license it from you. So in theory, I do not have complete freedom of speech. There are other snags on speech, but the point is that it is all artificial. Rights may be defined as what you can do without getting into some kind of legal trouble. An even better definition would be: A right is what is expected of the government that rules the population.

Can health-care be called a right?
As is common today, you are using the word "right" as a synonym for "entitlement". Historically, those words were not used interchangeably, as they are based on two completely different concepts.

An entitlement is the result of human agreement or contract, like you were saying. An entitlement to half off my next oil change, as a non-politicized example.

A right is the result of nature, and is based on what we naturally have the ability to do. A right to blink, as a non-politicized example. This is why they are often referred to as "natural" or "God-given" rights. They exist independently of any human agreement or contract.

It's unfortunate that these words are so often used interchangeably, since there is no other synonym for either that effectively differentiates the two different concepts.

The constitution contains no references to entitlements, only rights. And no rights are "granted" by the constitution, only protected from infringement.
 
  • #146
apeiron said:
Yes, I did :zzz:.

Click? No you didn't.

Interesting second article - says nothing in support of your claim, btw.
 
  • #147
Al68 said:
A right is the result of nature, and is based on what we naturally have the ability to do. A right to blink, as a non-politicized example. This is why they are often referred to as "natural" or "God-given" rights. They exist independently of any human agreement or contract.
Right! Like Hobbes says, I have the natural right to kill you, if I so choose.


On this topic, I much prefer Jonathan Wallace:
The natural rights debate leads us down a false road. The energy spent in arguing which rules exist should better be spent deciding which rules we should make. The "perfect freedom" Locke described "to order their actions and dispose of their possessions and persons as they see fit... without asking leave or depending upon the will of any other man", does not dictate the existence of rights; instead it leaves us perfectly free to legislate them.

I prefer this freedom, which seems to me simple and clear: we are all at a table together, deciding which rules to adopt, free from any vague constraints, half-remembered myths, anonymous patriarchal texts and murky concepts of nature. If I propose something you do not like, tell me why it is not practical, or harms somebody, or is counter to some other useful rule; but don't tell me it offends the universe.​
 
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  • #148
Al68 said:
As is common today, you are using the word "right" as a synonym for "entitlement". Historically, those words were not used interchangeably, as they are based on two completely different concepts.

An entitlement is the result of human agreement or contract, like you were saying. An entitlement to half off my next oil change, as a non-politicized example.

A right is the result of nature, and is based on what we naturally have the ability to do. A right to blink, as a non-politicized example. This is why they are often referred to as "natural" or "God-given" rights. They exist independently of any human agreement or contract.

I have the natural ability to kill another person. Do I have the right to murder?Article 1 section 8 of the United States constitution provides exclusive rights:

Article 1 said:
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
 
  • #149
Cyrus said:
Interesting second article - says nothing in support of your claim, btw.

Curious comment. I pointed out that a US appetite for drugs risks Mexico becoming a failed state. What else is the article about?
 
  • #150
apeiron said:
Curious comment. I pointed out that a US appetite for drugs risks Mexico becoming a failed state. What else is the article about?

Right, you said the US buys oil from Mexico. Your article talks about extreme corruption with drug runners. The fact that drugs are (illegally) smugged into the US boarders, actually makes my argument of strong boarder protection. So I'm curious as to why you would try and argue this position?
 

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