News Lindsey Graham's Modification of 14th Amendment

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Congressman Lindsey Graham's proposal to modify the 14th Amendment aims to prevent children born to illegal immigrant parents from automatically receiving U.S. citizenship. Proponents argue that this change would not reward illegal behavior and would discourage illegal immigration. Critics counter that punishing children for their parents' actions is unjust, as these children have committed no crime and may face significant hardships, such as lack of access to healthcare and education, if denied citizenship. The debate highlights differing views on immigration, human rights, and the responsibilities of the U.S. government versus the actions of foreign governments, particularly Mexico. Some participants express concern over the implications of such a law on innocent children, while others emphasize the need to uphold legal immigration standards and discourage illegal entry into the U.S. The discussion also touches on the broader challenges of immigration policy and the realities faced by those seeking a better life.
  • #91
Gokul43201 said:
Are you saying also that this is a fair justification ... that it's reasonable to call the US xenophobic because it has a higher income disparity than say, countries in the EU (irrespective of its actual policies regarding immigration)?

It would seem logical that if the driver is more intense, so will be the observed behaviour.

However xenophobia has other drivers, such as social homogeneity. Some countries, like Korea for example, would rank highly here - on a general attitude of social closed-ness.

This is a good study of the drivers of xenophobia...

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1089&context=edpsychpapers

Not unlike other prejudices, xenophobia is a multidimensional and
multicausal phenomenon.
Xenophobia is intricately tied to notions of
nationalism and ethnocentrism, both of which are characterized by belief
in the superiority of one’s nation-state over others (Licata & Klein,
2002; Schirmer, 1998). Esses, Dovidio, Semenya, and Jackson (2005)
teased out some important distinctions regarding constitutive elements
of xenophobia. They found that individual and group national identity
focus that is nativistic (i.e., believing that national identity is based on
birth
) rather than civic and cultural (i.e., believing that national identity
is based on voluntary commitment to institutions) results in stronger
negative views of foreigners.
Their experimental studies also revealed
that nationalism (belief in the superiority of one’s nation over others)
rather than patriotism (affective attachment to one’s nation) is related to
increased negative views of immigrants
. Last, Esses, Dovidio, Jackson,
and Armstrong (2001) have shown that high social dominance orientation,
which is related to individual belief in inherent cultural hierarchies
and inequalities within a society, is predictive of anti-immigrant sentiments.

Thus, this scholarship suggests that ethnocentrism, nationalism,
nativism, and belief in a hierarchical world order have been strongly associated
with xenophobia.

So you have three factors dissected there.

As a society, the US might be expected to score low on the belief that birthplace counts (unlike Korea).

When it comes to feelings of superiority...well I think that would might rate on the high side. It is certainly a view I get from PF contributors. However I would have said the US has had also to be an intensely patriotic country - being a nation of immigrants, rallying around the flag and taken oaths of allegiance are a powerful bonding mechanism.

Perhaps this conflict is part of what we are hearing here. US is a superior social institution and so it is, by definition going to be less xenophobic (our comments are just realistic) and less unequal (our inequality levels are evidence of our economic dynamism). All we require of newcommers is that they be the best (as they are joining a superior institution) and they demonstrate the requisite bonding patriotism (criticism of US as the best is poorly tolerated).

So I would say that the feelings of superiority and demand for uncritical patriotism are both unusually strong features of the US - certainly compared to the many other countries I've lived in or visited. If I put up the national flag outside my house, or knew the words to the national anthem, I would be considered positively weird in my country. The only flags I have ever seen hung outside a house here have been foreign ones.

As to the third factor, belief in static social hierarchies, here the US would be presumed to score low. Its ethos is anyone can be president. And the US does score low in surveys. But again, the reality may have become more hierarchical in fact. The US is extremely stratified now in economic terms (Gini coefficients) so there is indeed now something for those at the top, or even in the middle, to protect against incomers.

So overall, you would expect the US to be at low risk for xenophobia as a national trait. If it is expressed, it would be due to more particular tensions - such as economic inequalities. And with inequality having become extreme by international standards, then xenophobia might well be expressed strongly along that particular faultline. Which would explain some of the outrageous (to someone living somewhere else) comments heard here.

Anyway, more of what that paper argues...

Indeed, the popular
myth of the United States as a “melting pot” of assimilated immigrants
is neither supported by historical data nor by evaluation of the treatment
of immigrants in the United States, especially for the immigrants
of color (Schirmer, 1998). Although restrictive and punitive immigration
measures have specifically targeted migrants because of their race and
social class, a broader cultural milieu of anti-immigrant sentiment has
prevailed regardless of immigrants’ demographic characteristics (Perea,
1997). These prejudices are perhaps best comprehended under the heading
of xenophobia

The United States has been known throughout its history as a nation
of immigrants (Smith & Edmonston, 1997). At the same time, the
United States has a long history of xenophobia and intolerance of immigrants
(Fuchs, 1995; Takaki, 1989). White western Europeans, who colonized
the Americas, as well as individuals from many other nations,
moved to the United States relatively freely and in great numbers until
the restrictions of the early 1900s (Daniels, 2002). In 1921, the U.S.
Congress passed the Quota Act, which established a new system of national
origin restrictions, favoring northern European immigrants over
those from other regions of the world. In 1924, the Johnson-Reed Act
further reduced the quota and created the U.S. Border Patrol. Subsequent
immigration policies continued to be guided by race and social
class-based policies (e.g., Chinese Exclusionary Act, the Alien Land Act,
the McCarran-Walter Act) that denied entry or the right to citizenship
to non-White immigrants (Daniels, 2004). Non-White immigrants were
first able to become naturalized citizens only in 1952, whereas this privilege
had been granted to the majority of White immigrants since 1790
(Daniels, 2002). Immigration laws in the 1940s and 1950s were marked
by strong prejudices against individuals of German descent as well as
all those who might be “communists” (Gabaccia, 2002). With the Civil
Rights movement of the 1960s, the ethnically and racially restrictive immigration
quotas were challenged (Daniels, 2002; Gabaccia, 2002).

Then noting that immigrant labour has been both tolerated economically while being simultaneously labelled illegal...

Undocumented migration to the United States has been especially targeted
in recent policies and cultural debates (Gabaccia, 2002). Prior to the
1960s, migrant agricultural workers, especially from Mexico, could gain
lawful temporary employment in the United States under the bracero program.
The 1965 Immigration Act resulted in a denial of all legal rights to
migrant workers, and their status in the United States became that of undocumented
or illegal immigrants. However, the demand for migrant labor
in the United States increased rather than diminished, and in spite
of policies that made life more difficult for them, the numbers of undocumented
workers has continually increased (Daniels, 2004; Perea, 1997).

If this is the true history, it weakens complaints about "all these illegals crossing the border and stealing our jobs, our hospital beds". A fair social contract can't have it both ways. There is no other word for this kind of situation other than exploitation.

If the US government has been turning a blind eye while illegals have found jobs, then the government ought to pay for healthcare etc. There is a clear moral responsibility there. If it is instead mostly US employers who can be blamed for giving illegals jobs, then the cost should fall on them.

And the people unhappy about illegals - either simply from "pure" irrational xenophobic predudice, or hopefully instead, defensible social contract principles - ought to turn their anger towards those actually responsible for the situation.
 
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  • #92
apeiron said:
However xenophobia has other drivers, such as social homogeneity.
I thought you were talking about drivers of the perception of xenophobia - I need to back up and start over. But I will not have enough time over the next couple of days, so I will have to get to this next week, when I find more time.
 
  • #93
apeiron said:
Then noting that immigrant labour has been both tolerated economically while being simultaneously labelled illegal...

If this is the true history, it weakens complaints about "all these illegals crossing the border and stealing our jobs, our hospital beds". A fair social contract can't have it both ways. There is no other word for this kind of situation other than exploitation.
The legal seasonal bracero program and the later abuses by california farms which led to Agricultural unions is worthy of discussion, but is taking away from the discussion of the current topic of making children of illegal aliens legal. Feel free to open a thread about the Bracero program and laws passed to end it, resulting in farm owners hiring illegals.

Let's keep this thread on the current issue.
 
  • #94
Evo said:
I'd like to see a trade system, for every hard working Mexican that wishes to work in the US, we get to send an equal number of our white trash to them.
LOL. Now that's a good idea. :biggrin:

Seriously, I think we're confusing two very different issues. Citizenship means constitutionally protected rights, generally after becoming an adult. Right to free speech, bear arms, free from illegal search, etc. That's the consequence here. Citizenship doesn't constitutionally entitle anyone to any "benefits" from government.

Regardless of your position on entitlements, denying an entitlement to someone doesn't violate any constitutional right of citizenship, anyway, so it's a moot point.
 
  • #95
Evo said:
I'd like to see a trade system, for every hard working Mexican that wishes to work in the US, we get to send an equal number of our white trash to them.
Al68 said:
LOL. Now that's a good idea. :biggrin:
Except that it appears to equate a "hard working Mexican" with "white trash". I can't imagine that such a comparison was intended, but that is how an unwitting passerby is likely to interpret it.
 
  • #96
Gokul43201 said:
Except that it seems to equate a "hard working Mexican" with "white trash". I can't imagine that such a comparison was intended, but that is sure how a passerby is likely to interpret it.
No, I hold a hard working person of any nationality above a worthless legal bum.
 
  • #97
Evo said:
No, I hold a hard working person of any nationality above a worthless legal bum.

OK, how about we trade 3 relocated Katrina victims living off the state of Texas for one hardworking illegal Mexican drug runner? I think there's a better chance of the drug runner helping the economy. I'm just saying.

*ducks*
 
  • #98
Math Is Hard said:
OK, how about we trade 3 relocated Katrina victims living off the state of Texas for one hardworking illegal Mexican drug runner? I think there's a better chance of the drug runner helping the economy. I'm just saying.

*ducks*

I am not sure if there can be any legitimate process that can distinguish hardworking illegal Mexicans or bums living off the state.
 
  • #99
Gokul43201 said:
Unlike the UK and France, which have an official language, the US does not.

English is only the de facto official language of the UK (much like it is in the US).

And neither the UK nor France has bilingual education for immigrants.

The UK has started to open bilingual schools (e.g. there are some French-English schools in London).

Both countries, however, do provide bilingual education for natives that speak languages endemic to the region (like Occitan and Franco-Provençal, in parts of France, and Welsh, Gaelic and Cornish, in parts of the UK).

Yes, but these are British people who speak another language as their first language (and, in fact, have that language as their official language-- welsh is the official language of wales).

Also, closer to the topic of this thread, unlike the UK and France, which do NOT grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants, the US (so far) does.

Not automatic, but a child born here illegally becomes a citizen on his 10th birthday.


I really don't think you can draw a parallel between the UK and the US, since we are two very different countries. European countries have complex immigration situations that do not exist in the US (for example, a billion people have the right to come and live in the UK simply because they are European).
 
  • #100
Cyrus, thank you for the time you took responding to my initial post. By saying that I was going on a rant, I was kind of trying to make sure no one would take the ranting too seriously. (Oops.) It was a post that was obviously driven by emotion rather than logic. Please feel free to take this more sane, less emotional post more seriously.
drankin said:
It's a great quote. It's not part of our Constitution. The spirit of that quote is practiced in a legal manner. We have a system of immigration. Even when we were coming here in droves off the boats in the day.

We do need a physical barrier between our two countries and guards to protect it. There is absolutely nothing else that can prevent undocumented, illegal, pathologically unchecked persons from migrating here and diluting our labor resources.

It's easy to call someone a bigot by definition when they strongly disagree with you.
I agree with everything you said except for the physical barrier part. You remeber the Berlin Wall? Great wall of China? The Maginot Line? There are probably others I don't know about. I think if people had more incentive to stay in Mexico, it would be much more effective than any wall.
Gokul43201 said:
The US has been accused in this thread of being particularly xenophobic (especially from the point of view of other countries). Anyone care to substantiate that claim?
Can I substantiate my own claim? Hahaha.

I live in China. While there is a general sense of fascination with western culture and the United States in particular here, there is a lot of ill sentiment in regards to our foreign policy. In my job I meet people from all over the world. The general sentiment is the same: the individual American might be alright, but our government is not. It's harder when I might people who are not this open minded...

People ask me if I know that the US is referred to as "The World Police." (The assumption is, I don't know bad stuff about my own country.) Believe it or not, they don't mean "police" in a good way. They mean we stick our noses where they don't belong. We deal unfairly with weaker nations so we'll come out on top. We close our borders to the countries whose population is poor or not predominantly white. (I'm talking perception. Whether or not it's true, is a whole other discussion.)

Actually, when I was studying here, I had some classmates from the ROK who meant "World Police" in a good way. They have been the exception so far.
Al68 said:
Seriously, I think we're confusing two very different issues. Citizenship means constitutionally protected rights, generally after becoming an adult. Right to free speech, bear arms, free from illegal search, etc. That's the consequence here. Citizenship doesn't constitutionally entitle anyone to any "benefits" from government.

Regardless of your position on entitlements, denying an entitlement to someone doesn't violate any constitutional right of citizenship, anyway, so it's a moot point.
You're right. I kept thinking of it as a rights issue, but it's not.

Considering the intention of the amendment, I'll concede that it's probably a stretch to extend it to illegal immigrants. I don't have any objection to being true to the spirit of the constitution. What bothers me here is the way people are trying to go about this.

Immigrants, especially illegal ones, always become a target when economic trouble is around. They are the classic scapegoat. "Those immigrants took my job/scholarship/place in line/etc." "I'm sick of paying for those immigrants to (insert just about anything here)."

You should take a look at a breakdown of America's budget. See what percent of your taxes actually goes into paying for illegal immigrants. Then compare that to our economic dependence on illegal immigrants and the amount of money they generate in our economy.

The real question is: Why are they coming to the US illegally? Until we address this problem in a thoughtful, non-reactionary, long term perspective way, the problem will persist. No amount of walls or changes to who becomes a citizen are going to solve the problem permanently.
 
  • #101
Math Is Hard said:
OK, how about we trade 3 relocated Katrina victims living off the state of Texas for one hardworking illegal Mexican drug runner? I think there's a better chance of the drug runner helping the economy. I'm just saying.

*ducks*
I'm not talking about people down on their luck, I'm talking about people that are allergic to supporting themselves.
 
  • #103
Math Is Hard said:
Sounds like a forced "repatriation" program may be in order. Louisiana needs to pony up. And who doesn't understand that most of that land would not have existed under natural circumstances?

But I'm going off topic.
 
  • #104
cristo said:
But the child hasn't done anything illegal. Why should it be punished?

If a person throws a baby at me, that's assault. The baby didn't do anything illegal, but if I have to defend myself from it hitting me, I will.
 
  • #105
leroyjenkens said:
If a person throws a baby at me, that's assault. The baby didn't do anything illegal, but if I have to defend myself from it hitting me, I will.

That's a very well thought out and relevant comment. Thank you.
 
  • #106
cristo said:
That's a very well thought out and relevant comment. Thank you.
:roflcopters:
 
  • #107
Math Is Hard said:
That article was written just a year after Katrina. Now that people have had a chance to reexamine things it appears that the post-Katrina crime wave was a tad overhyped. One real problem with those Katrina evacuees is that most of their kids went to Louisiana public schools. That problem is also more or less non-existent now. Those Katrina kids now doing quite well in Texas schools.

But ... once a New Orleanian, always a New Orleanian -- at least that is how New Orleans' then mayor Ray Nagin wanted the Census Bureau to count those Katrina evacuees even though Katrina happened almost five years ago.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6868718.html
http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2010/04/hurricane_katrina_evacuees_exc.html
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Nagin-Houstons-Katrina-evacuees-as-New-Orleans-residents-in-Census-83665532.html
 
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  • #108
cristo said:
I guess my main point of that post you quote is twofold. Firstly, the American dream as seen from the outside is somewhat hypocritical, since while people are encouraged to work and better themselves, they are not really given the chance to.
In what sense? Legal immigrants still arrive at the rate of http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=730" . I expect that figure would be much higher but for the flux of illegal immigrants, especially from Mexico. Annecdotally, I have friends that have migrated here from the UK and Russia that became US citizens.

But secondly, I was merely trying to make the point that your typical Mexican will have no chance of legally getting into the US.
Clearly there is some legal immigration now, there are many legal latin american immigrants, and I again I expect there would be more if the border was controlled.
 
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  • #109
cristo said:
English is only the de facto official language of the UK (much like it is in the US).
Thanks for the correction. I was using a poor source (or, perhaps, I was using it poorly): http://www.thecommonwealth.org/YearbookHomeInternal/139560/

The UK has started to open bilingual schools (e.g. there are some French-English schools in London).
I mentioned biligual schools in the sense of helping immigrants integrate into society. Are the French, the biggest immigrant community in the UK? I thought the biggest communities were from the Indian subcontinent, Africa, and more recently, Eastern Europe.

Yes, but these are British people who speak another language as their first language (and, in fact, have that language as their official language-- welsh is the official language of wales).
I'm not criticizing the existence of the schools - just pointing out that they are not relevant to immigrant populations.

Not automatic, but a child born here illegally becomes a citizen on his 10th birthday.
Is the citizenship on the 10th birthday automatic? Does the child have to be a resident in the UK for that period? Is there an application process, and what does it involve? If you have a reference for this, that would be nice.

I haven't read the bill that is the basis of this thread, so do not know if it too provides some later-in-life procedure for children born here to gain citizenship differently from a random foreigner.

I really don't think you can draw a parallel between the UK and the US, since we are two very different countries. European countries have complex immigration situations that do not exist in the US (for example, a billion people have the right to come and live in the UK simply because they are European).
I agree, and I'm not trying to draw a parallel between the UK and the US. I am merely trying to locate the basis for the claims that the US is particularly unfair in its immigration policy. And I can't see a better way than to compare with the immigration policies of other countries.
 
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  • #110
adaptation said:
I agree with everything you said except for the physical barrier part. You remeber the Berlin Wall? Great wall of China? The Maginot Line? There are probably others I don't know about. I think if people had more incentive to stay in Mexico, it would be much more effective than any wall

No wall was ever intended. There are places near population centers, California and Texas, in particular, where there are 20 foot high metal fences. It didn't take long for the illegals to come up with 24 foot ladders.

Most of the border only has an ordinary wire fence. A number of off road areas where vehicles carrying drugs cross frequently have had spaced metal barriers installed. It didn't take long for them to overcome the barriers.

http://img.skitch.com/20090202-k7nb26p11pnfxeq8ph1mqkhy8.jpg

This one was still under construction:

http://photos.signonsandiego.com/albums/070621ramps/Image00068.jpg

There is nothing inhumane about the border fence.

Having an incentive to stay in Mexico would be wonderful. The USA has given Mexico millions of dollars to help them provide jobs for their people. The money quickly disappears into the hands of bureaucrats.

This is a much more complicated situation that many people seem to realize. Ten years ago I was all for immigration from Mexico. After seeing what has happened I have had to change my mind.

We (Arizonans) can not afford to give them free medical care and to educate non English speaking children. The past several years we have had an increasing number of illegals coming from all over Central America.
 
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  • #111
Gokul43201 said:
Thanks for the correction. I was using a poor source (or, perhaps, I was using it poorly): http://www.thecommonwealth.org/YearbookHomeInternal/139560/

I think there's a lot of misinformation about this on the net!

I mentioned biligual schools in the sense of helping immigrants integrate into society. Are the French, the biggest immigrant community in the UK? I thought the biggest communities were from the Indian subcontinent, Africa, and more recently, Eastern Europe.

No, the French are no the biggest immigrant community, I just know that those schools exist. I'm sure there are many other bilingual schools, but can't find anything to cite on them!

Is the citizenship on the 10th birthday automatic? Does the child have to be a resident in the UK for that period? Is there an application process, and what does it involve? If you have a reference for this, that would be nice.

It's on application if the child has been resident in the UK for the first 10 years (with the exception of at most 90 days per year). [see section 1(4) of 1981 nationality law ]
I agree, and I'm not trying to draw a parallel between the UK and the US. I am merely trying to locate the basis for the claims that the US is particularly unfair in its immigration policy. And I can't see a better way than to compare with the immigration policies of other countries.

The problem is that the parallel isn't really there. For example, if you count the French, say, or Eastern Europeans as immigrants, then the UK is far fairer on these people than, say, the US. But this is not because UK immigration law is lax, but rather that EU law dictates that EU residents should be treated as those of the home EU country.
 
  • #112
adaptation said:
Cyrus, I agree with everything you said except for the physical barrier part. You remeber the Berlin Wall? Great wall of China? The Maginot Line? There are probably others I don't know about. I think if people had more incentive to stay in Mexico, it would be much more effective than any wall.

I agree with you. The Mexican government is currently fighting for its life. The drug cartels are currently trying very hard to supplant it. So Americans should not be surprised to see people trying to illegally immigrate. If the people were going somewhere else, the United States may even call them refugees.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100804/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_mexico

I live in China. While there is a general sense of fascination with western culture and the United States in particular here, there is a lot of ill sentiment in regards to our foreign policy. In my job I meet people from all over the world. The general sentiment is the same: the individual American might be alright, but our government is not. It's harder when I might people who are not this open minded...

In some ways, the Chinese fascination with America worries me. In particular, I wonder if there is enough resources for the Chinese to live as Americans have lived in the past, and I wonder if china is planning on pursing imperialistic policies. I've noticed that china has become more assertive with its military in recent years.


People ask me if I know that the US is referred to as "The World Police." (The assumption is, I don't know bad stuff about my own country.) Believe it or not, they don't mean "police" in a good way. They mean we stick our noses where they don't belong. We deal unfairly with weaker nations so we'll come out on top. We close our borders to the countries whose population is poor or not predominantly white. (I'm talking perception. Whether or not it's true, is a whole other discussion.)

I think it would be fair to call America moderately imperialistic.

Considering the intention of the amendment, I'll concede that it's probably a stretch to extend it to illegal immigrants. I don't have any objection to being true to the spirit of the constitution. What bothers me here is the way people are trying to go about this.

I think such an amendment is unnecessary.


Immigrants, especially illegal ones, always become a target when economic trouble is around. They are the classic scapegoat. "Those immigrants took my job/scholarship/place in line/etc." "I'm sick of paying for those immigrants to (insert just about anything here).

The laser focus on immigration has more to do with the hard up economy than anything else I think. In addition, I believe America is undergoing some major transformations that frighten a lot of people.

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB121867492705539109.html


The real question is: Why are they coming to the US illegally? Until we address this problem in a thoughtful, non-reactionary, long term perspective way, the problem will persist. No amount of walls or changes to who becomes a citizen are going to solve the problem permanently.

Agreed.
 
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  • #113
I realize I'm late to this, but I just cannot see how this can be believied:
cristo said:
But the child hasn't done anything illegal. Why should it be punished?
Cristo, if I steal a car and give it to my kid, then the government takes that car away from my kid, would you call that punishment for the kid? It is rediculous to call removal of an illegally obtained benefit a punishment.

Taking something away that is not rightfully earned is not punishment, it is justice!.

The cause is this:
... by not allowing the child citizenship, you are denying the child things like healthcare or education (both of which I appreciate some of you do not class as human rights).
Rights are protections, not financial gifts - healthcare has no basis for being called a "right" and does not fit with the concept of rights. By taking things that have no logical/philosophical/theoretical basis as rights and granting them the status of rights, you create the above incongruity. It is fine that you believe that the government should be made to provide such things, but they are not rights, they are simply government services like roads and museums.

It is easy to show practical failings resulting from calling things like healthcare rights and the situation the US is now in is an obvious example. Other countries have had worse immigration situations, and there is no basis for forcing one country to provide such a wide range of care to a huge influx of unplanned immigrants. It doesn't cost the government anything to allow real rights, though it may cost a little to actively protect them when infringements are found. But things like social security and healthcare are a huge financial burden and if the number of immigrants is big enough, it becomes physically impossible to actually provide the services. Real rights - like freedom of speech - don't such continuous financial upkeep.
I really don't think you can draw a parallel between the UK and the US, since we are two very different countries. European countries have complex immigration situations that do not exist in the US (for example, a billion people have the right to come and live in the UK simply because they are European).
Isn't that exactly the problem the US has and how is it a problem for the UK? If those billion people suddenly decided that the healthcare in the UK was better and streamed across the English channel, the UK could not support them. But they don't do that because Europe is relatively homogenous - all countries are on nearly the same level - and there is no need for a French person to go to the UK to get better free services. Mexicans come to the US precisely because we are not on the same level. With rare exceptions (ie, Yugoslavian refugees), Europe doesn't have this problem. If it did, it would have to deal with it to avoid the drag on its economies.
 
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  • #114
russ_watters said:
Cristo, if I steal a car and give it to my kid, then the government takes that car away from my kid, would you call that punishment for the kid? It is rediculous to call removal of an illegally obtained benefit a punishment.

Of course not, but that child does not need a car. You are comparing apples and oranges.

The cause is this: Rights are protections, not financial gifts - healthcare has no basis for being called a "right" and does not fit with the concept of rights.

Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights would appear to state otherwise.
 
  • #115
LOL, the declaration of human toilet paper, as I call it. It's great for wiping one's backside.

It's got some good stuff mixed in with a lot of social welfare garbage.
 
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  • #116
Cyrus said:
LOL, the declaration of human toilet paper, as I call it. It's great for wiping one's backside.

Why does that not surprise me.
 
  • #117
cristo said:
Why does that not surprise me.

Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

I don't feel like working cristo, you pay taxes so I can enjoy my right to security during my unemployment. Really, this isn't a right, this is a welfare program. This united declaration reads like a whose-who of social welfare handouts. Now, there is nothing wrong with instituting these things in policy, but it is not ok to call these things 'rights.'
 
  • #118
Cyrus said:
I don't feel like working cristo, you pay taxes so I can enjoy my right to security during my unemployment. Really, this isn't a right, this is a welfare program.

Try reading. How does you not wanting to work fit into a "lack of livelihood beyond [your] control"?
 
  • #119
cristo said:
Try reading. How does you not wanting to work fit into a "lack of livelihood beyond [your] control"?

You should see how people milk the welfare system in this country. There is a difference huge between theory and practice. What does 'beyond my control' even mean? The economy is bad, it's beyond my control - gimme money.
 
  • #120
Article 24 Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

I want to work one day a month, and rest the other days. Seems reasonable to me. :-p

Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

I want free school, gimme that too. It's my RIGHT.

Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation.

That's it I am running for office, and don't you dare attack my honor or reputation as Corrupt Governor Cyrus!
 
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