Linear Transformations & Dual Space Problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem related to linear transformations and dual spaces in the context of vector spaces. Participants explore the implications of the condition \(\phi(x)\,\psi(x)=0\) for all \(x\in V\) and whether this leads to the conclusion that either \(\phi=0\) or \(\psi=0\). The scope includes mathematical reasoning and conceptual clarification regarding the properties of dual spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that since \(\phi(x)\) and \(\psi(x)\) are elements of a field, the condition \(\phi(x)\,\psi(x)=0\) implies either \(\phi=0\) or \(\psi=0\), based on the property of fields having no zero divisors.
  • Another participant challenges this by noting that the dual space is not necessarily a field and provides an example using \(V=\mathbb{R}^3\) to illustrate that elements of the dual space can be expressed as linear combinations of the components of vectors.
  • Further clarification is provided regarding the nature of linear transformations in the dual space, emphasizing that they map from \(V\) to the underlying field \(F\).
  • Participants discuss the logical structure of the proof, distinguishing between the implications of \(\phi(x)\psi(x)=0\) for specific \(x\) versus for all \(x\).
  • A participant proposes a proof structure based on the assumption that both \(\phi\) and \(\psi\) are non-zero for some vectors, leading to a contradiction.
  • Several participants confirm the correctness of the proposed proof and express gratitude for the guidance received throughout the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the validity of the proof structure proposed by one participant, but there remains a discussion about the properties of the dual space and the implications of the initial condition. The discussion reflects both agreement on the proof's correctness and ongoing debate regarding the nature of the dual space.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved issues regarding the definitions and properties of dual spaces, particularly in relation to whether they can be treated as fields in all cases. The discussion also highlights the need for careful logical reasoning when interpreting the implications of the given conditions.

Sudharaka
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Hi everyone, :)

Here's a question and I'll also write down the answer for which I got zero marks. :p I would really appreciate if you can find where I went wrong.

Question: Let \(\phi,\,\psi\in V^{*}\) be two linear functions on a vector space \(V\) such that \(\phi(x)\,\psi(x)=0\) for all \(x\in V\). Prove that either \(\phi=0\mbox{ or }\psi=0\).

Note: \(V^{*}\) is the dual space of \(V\).

My Answer: Note that both \(\phi(x)\) and \(\psi(x)\) are elements of a field (the underlying field of the vector space \(F\)). Since every field is an integral domain it has no zero divisors. Hence, \(\phi(x)\,\psi(x)=0\Rightarrow \phi=0\mbox{ or }\psi=0\).
 
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Assume $\phi(x)\psi(x)=0$ for all $x\in V$, $\phi(x_1)\ne0$ and $\psi(x_2)\ne0$. Show that $\phi(x_2)=0$ and consider $\phi(x_1+x_2)\psi(x_1+x_2)$.

The dual space is not immediately a field. For example, for $V=\mathbb{R}^3$, $V^*$ is also $\mathbb{R}^3$: any $\phi((x_1,x_2,x_3))$ has the form $a_1x_1+a_2x_2+a_3x_3$ for some $a_1,a_2,a_3$.
 
Evgeny.Makarov said:
Assume $\phi(x)\psi(x)=0$ for all $x\in V$, $\phi(x_1)\ne0$ and $\psi(x_2)\ne0$. Show that $\phi(x_2)=0$ and consider $\phi(x_1+x_2)\psi(x_1+x_2)$.

The dual space is not immediately a field. For example, for $V=\mathbb{R}^3$, $V^*$ is also $\mathbb{R}^3$: any $\phi((x_1,x_2,x_3))$ has the form $a_1x_1+a_2x_2+a_3x_3$ for some $a_1,a_2,a_3$.

Thanks very much for the reply, but I'm not sure if I am getting you here. I know that the dual space is not a field in general, but the thing is the dual space consist of linear all the transformations from \(V\) to it's underlying field \(F\). That is maps of the form, \(f:\,V\rightarrow F\). So if we take any linear transformation from the dual space, \(V^{*}\equiv L(V,\, F)\), the images of that linear map lie in the field \(F\). Am I correct up to this point? :)
 
Sudharaka said:
the dual space consist of linear all the transformations from \(V\) to it's underlying field \(F\). That is maps of the form, \(f:\,V\rightarrow F\). So if we take any linear transformation from the dual space, \(V^{*}\equiv L(V,\, F)\), the images of that linear map lie in the field \(F\). Am I correct up to this point?
Yes. This implies, of course, that if $\phi(x)\psi(x)=0$ for some $x$, then either $\phi$ or $\psi$ is 0 on that $x$. Formally,
\[\forall x\,(\phi(x)\psi(x)=0\to\phi(x)=0\lor\psi(x)=0)\]
whereas the question asked to prove
\[(\forall x\,\phi(x)\psi(x)=0)\to(\forall x\,\phi(x)=0)\lor(\forall x\,\psi(x)=0)\]
 
Evgeny.Makarov said:
Yes. This implies, of course, that if $\phi(x)\psi(x)=0$ for some $x$, then either $\phi$ or $\psi$ is 0 on that $x$. Formally,
\[\forall x\,(\phi(x)\psi(x)=0\to\phi(x)=0\lor\psi(x)=0)\]
whereas the question asked to prove
\[(\forall x\,\phi(x)\psi(x)=0)\to(\forall x\,\phi(x)=0)\lor(\forall x\,\psi(x)=0)\]

Thanks again. This clarifies everything. I see the difference now. :) Let me write down the proof along the lines you have indicated in post #2.

Let \(\phi(x)\psi(x)=0\) for all \(x\). Assume that there exist \(x_1\) and \(x_2\) such that \(\phi(x_1)\neq 0\) and \(\psi(x_2)\neq 0\). Then we know that, \(\phi(x_2)\psi(x_2)=0\Rightarrow \phi(x_2)=0\) (since \(\psi(x_2)\neq 0\) and \(F\) is a Field so it can't have zero divisors).

Now consider, \(0=\phi(x_1+x_2)\psi(x_1+x_2)= \phi(x_1)\psi(x_1)+\phi(x_2)\psi(x_2)+ \phi(x_1) \psi(x_2)+ \phi(x_2)\psi(x_1)=\phi(x_1) \psi(x_2)\)

Hence we get, \(\phi(x_1) \psi(x_2)=0\) which implies that \(\phi(x_1)=0\mbox{ or }\psi(x_2)=0\) which is a contradiction. Therefore either \(\psi=0\) or \(\phi =0\)

Now I should be correct. Aren't I? :)
 
Yes, this is correct.
 
Evgeny.Makarov said:
Yes, this is correct.

Thanks for all the help you provided and guiding me through the problem. :)
 

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