Magnetic fields and relativity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction of magnetic fields and relativistic effects, particularly in the context of two protons moving towards each other. Participants explore how relativity may influence the magnetic forces between charged particles and seek relevant equations for these interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the right-hand rule applies to two protons interacting while moving towards each other and how relativity might affect their magnetic repulsion.
  • Another participant asserts that relativity will affect the attraction and repulsion of charged particles, noting that Coulomb's law applies strictly to stationary charges and hints at the complexity of adapting it for relativistic scenarios.
  • A participant references an article suggesting that if a proton and an electron move in the same direction, they would experience magnetic repulsion, raising questions about the relativistic nature of magnetism.
  • A participant provides a relativistic expression for the force on a particle due to another particle, emphasizing that this expression is valid only for constant velocity and becomes more complex with acceleration.
  • Discussion includes the forces acting on charged-particle beams, noting the interplay of Coulomb and magnetic forces, and how these forces behave differently for parallel and anti-parallel beams.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of relativity for magnetic interactions, with some asserting that relativity affects these forces while others question the extent of this effect. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific equations and the nature of magnetic fields in relativistic contexts.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of deriving equations for relativistic interactions and the limitations of applying classical laws like Coulomb's law to moving charges. There are also references to specific conditions under which certain forces may cancel or add, indicating a dependence on the configuration of the charged particles.

Jedimasta
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i have several questions which relate to a project i will be starting soon
we all know the right hand rule and others, but does it apply to 2 particles interacting with each other? for example if 2 protons are moving towards each other

-------+>
<+---------

like that ^

will relativity affect them, causing the magnetic fields to make them repel each other more strongly than they would if they were stationary next to each other?

if they were 0.000,000,001m away from each other, and traveling at half the speed of light relative to each other, how much of the force pushing them apart would be from the magnetism at their closest point? (travelling perpendicular to each other)

also i need the relevant equations to answering this question so that next time i have a similar question, i can solve it myself
EDIT: does magnetic field strength generated by a single particle increase in strength linearly or exponentially? (if a proton doubles its velocity, does its magnetic field strength double? or quadruple?)
 
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This may helpful: http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/7cp/ch06/ch06.html (section 6.2). See especially figure m.
 
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for example if 2 protons are moving towards each other
will relativity affect them, causing the magnetic fields to make them repel each other more strongly than they would if they were stationary next to each other?

yes relativity will affect attraction/repulsion: Columbs law strictly holds only for static (stationary) point charges. I have never seen the adaptation to a relativistic formula...I would not even venture a guess, but I bet you it's interesting...
 
bcrowell said:
This may helpful: http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/7cp/ch06/ch06.html (section 6.2). See especially figure m.

i noticed in that article it says that if a proton and an electron were moving in the same direction, they would experience magnetic repulsion

if this were true, it would mean magnetism is NOT relativistic, since if it was, then those particles would experience no magnetic fields from each other, since relative to each other, they are stationary (while technically this effect would be observed if the same effect was tried with power cables *i will explain it if i have to, but its complicated, and a real pain in the *** to do*)

i need a 100% sure answer to my questions

also if someone could post the relevant equations to my second question it would be much appreciated
 
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The relativistic expression for dp'/dt of a particle due to another particle is given by:
\frac{d{\bf p&#039;}}{dt}=\frac{qq&#039;[{\bf r}+{\bf v&#039;\times(v\times r)}]}<br /> {\gamma_v^2[{\bf r}^2-({\bf v\times r)^2}]^{\frac{3}{2}}}.

But, this is only true for the first particle moving with constant velocity v.
If that particle accelerates, which is likely, then the equation becomes more complicated and requires use of the retarded time, making it almost intractable.
 
For two parallel or anti-parallel charged-particle beams, there are both Coulomb and magnetic forces. The forces are essentially the same for individual particles and for particle beams, but understanding the beam-beam interaction is a little easier than the particle-particle forces because of the transient effects with individual particles. The Coulomb force and the magnetic force are opposite for parallel beams, and cancel for very relativistic beams. See attachment. For anti-parallel charged-particle beams, the Coulomb and magnetic forces are additive.The same equations in the attachment can be used, but the sign of the force in equation [3] et. seq. should be changed. For currents in wires, there is no Coulomb force between the wires.

Bob S
 

Attachments

  • Beam_beam_forces1A.jpg
    Beam_beam_forces1A.jpg
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  • Beam_beam_forces2A.jpg
    Beam_beam_forces2A.jpg
    5 KB · Views: 368
ok thanks for the help guys, much appreciated
 

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