Magnetic water? and a question or 2 about ions

[another idiot]

I'm sure you'll all think I'm brain damaged but i was wondering if water, polarized within an electric field, might exhibit some magnetic properties... with the molecules having a slight electric dipole, could the 2 positively charged H atoms be thought of as an electric current of sorts, "orbiting" the O atom? if so, could these positive "electric currents" be effected by any magnetic fields that were pulsed through the spin axis of the water molecule? could the water molecules be made to spin around the electric field lines which are polarizing the water ( the H atoms in effect "orbiting" the E field lines), if a pulsing magnetic field was also pumped across the water, with the M field lines being parallel to the E field lines?



i was also wondering about the possible effects of using positively ionized oxygen (ionized as much as possible) instead of normal neutral atmospheric O2 in an internal combustion engine. I have been led to believe that lone O atoms and ions are more energetic than neutral O2, and as such they will attack any fuel molecules in the combustion chamber more aggressively in their quest to re-stabilize.

what effect if any might the use of highly charged air have on the burning process? would more energy (provided by the ionization energy of the ions) be released from the engine? would it be possible to effect engine power and efficiency by simply filling a section of the air intake with a highly charged conductive mesh intended to strip electrons from the air as it enters?

if highly positively ionized oxygen was mixed with water which had also been positively charged, would the O ions be aggressive and energetic enough to disrupt the water in their quest for electrons? would hydrogen be released from the water as its bonding electrons were picked up by the O+++ ? or would hydrogen atoms simply be stolen by the O+++ forming new water molecules to replace the ones that were shredded? or would nothing much happen at all??


i apologise for my ignorance and lack of education... if any of you clever folks out there have the time to provide any answers to my inane babble, i would appreciate any responses and knowledge you might have to share...

 

[Bob S]

Water is not magnetic. If it were, I will sell you a magnet water conditioner/softener (see http://www.magnet4less.com/index.php?cPath=1_42&gclid=CO_LierE35oCFRFMagodZzRYyg). I might even sell you a gasoline fuel magnetic polarizer to improve fuel economy 20%!
[True] Water can infuence the combustion of fuel in internal combustion engines (but not the fuel efficiency). It was used in aircraft engined during World War II to improve takeoff thrust. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines )

 

[another idiot]

i realize that water is not magnetic in the sense that it can't be picked up with a magnet... but i still wonder if the slight electric dipole of the molecule might mean that the slightly charged particles forming it could be deflected and accelerated by a well aimed magnetic field? am a wrong in thinking that charged particles can be acted upon by a magnetic field? why should the charged particles within a water molecule not react in the same way as the ones in a particle accelerator which are propelled by magnetic fields? they may not be magnetic particles in the sense that they can be picked up by a magnet, but their electric charge means that they are effected by magnetic fields, doesn't it?

i have read a bit before about water injection systems, interesting stuff... it seems to me that it must have some effect on the efficiency as well as the power of the engine... if the extra piston pressure provided by the expanding water droplets mean that the engine is producing more power using the same amount of fuel, obviously it could also produce the same amount of power using less fuel. how can you effect power without effecting efficiency?

 

[another idiot]

although this isn't exactly what i was talking about, this vid apparently shows water being distorted by a passing magnetic field...

 

[Borek]

Heh, speaking about magnetic water, check this one

http://media.revver.com/broadcast/49446/video.mov

But you better don't believe what you see.

 

[another idiot]

yeah, funny video... crashed my computer though, cheers for that... i'll go and start my download again...
what do you make of the youtube link i posted? and the old levitating frog vid? have you seen that one?
it's not exactly what I'm getting at with my first question, I'm more interested in the effect of a carefully aimed pulsing magnetic field on individual electrically polarised water molecules than the reactive magnetic field caused by eddy currents in impure water as a passing magnetic field waxes and wanes...

 

[Adriaran]

I'm not too experienced in physics or chemistry or anything, just so you know haha...but I'm pretty sure I'm correct here...

Water doesn't have any directly electric conductive properties. Water can only conduct electricity, because of the metal ions and such that are contained within water. For example, if you take tap water, it conduct an electric current because of what's in it. But distilled water cannot, because it is pure H2O and has no ions capable of passing a current. So you would not be able to send an electric current through the water.

 

[alxm]

I'm not too experienced in physics or chemistry or anything, just so you know haha...but I'm pretty sure I'm correct here...

Water doesn't have any directly electric conductive properties. Water can only conduct electricity, because of the metal ions and such that are contained within water. For example, if you take tap water, it conduct an electric current because of what's in it. But distilled water cannot, because it is pure H2O and has no ions capable of passing a current. So you would not be able to send an electric current through the water.

A commonly-held myth. Water ionizes itself, and so even perfectly pure water conducts electricity. Science teachers sometimes say that distilled water doesn't conduct electricity, or that it conducts poorly, which it does, compared to say, metal. But compared to fluids that hardly ionize at all, e.g. oil, distilled water is an excellent conductor. Dirty water conducts about as much better than distilled water, as distilled water does to most oils, to give you an idea of the magnitudes involved.

 

[Borek]

Ultra pure water has a specific resistance around 18 MΩcm - high enough to make pH measurements of pure water almost impossible. Still, as alxm alredy wrote, it is ionized - see water ion product.

 

[another idiot]

all interesting stuff, but it doesn't really answer or apply to my question... an electric current through the water is not part of the situation that i describe. the potential field across the water should polarise the water molecules regardless of current flow. the purpose of this is simply to align the molecules such that a magnetic field can be applied uniformly to all the molecules... the polarising electrodes also form a gap in the flux path of a magnetic circuit, one which provides a powerful surging magnetic field across the gap containing water molecules uniformly oriented by the polarising electric field...
that being said, would the magnetic field surging through the H2O molecules have any accelerating or decelerating effect on the positively charged hydrogen atoms that formed them? i realize that the dipole across the molecule is tiny, and so the charge on the hydrogen atoms is also pretty small, but still... what effect would a well aimed magnetic field have on them?

 

[another idiot]

hello? anybody out there? if an admin reads this, is there any chance you could move my question to the high energy/ particle physics forum?.. i guess really what I'm describing is a twisted type of accelerator so maybe someone over there might have some thoughts on the subject... one other thought while I'm here: would the hydrogen bonds between adjacent water molecules stop any rotation of the molecules caused by the magnetic field (if any accelerating force is actually present...)?

 

[Topher925]

Keep in mind that I'm not a physicist or a chemist, but I believe most matter has some permeability and therefor is susceptible to magnetic fields do to most molecules being at least somewhat polar. Similar to the levitating frog you mentioned, you can do the same thing with water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iygf2qy5LqI&feature=player_embedded

Both the frog and the water droplet levitation was performed using a VERY powerful solenoid which generates magnetic fields on the order of ~20 Teslas. A lot stronger than any permanent magnet you will find.

what effect would a well aimed magnetic field have on them?

I would imagine that the poles of the molecules would align in somewhat of a similar orientation but this should not affect their net kinetic energy. I'm not to bright when it comes to chemistry and electromagnetism so hopefully some of the forums intellectual heavy weights in chime in.

 

[another idiot]

the device i have in mind uses a solenoid, not a permanent magnet, and the magnetic field is pulsed across the water, it's not a static field... I also hope that some heavyweight intellectual physicists can help out here...

 

[chemisttree]

all interesting stuff, but it doesn't really answer or apply to my question... an electric current through the water is not part of the situation that i describe. the potential field across the water should polarise the water molecules regardless of current flow. the purpose of this is simply to align the molecules such that a magnetic field can be applied uniformly to all the molecules... the polarising electrodes also form a gap in the flux path of a magnetic circuit, one which provides a powerful surging magnetic field across the gap containing water molecules uniformly oriented by the polarising electric field...
that being said, would the magnetic field surging through the H2O molecules have any accelerating or decelerating effect on the positively charged hydrogen atoms that formed them? i realize that the dipole across the molecule is tiny, and so the charge on the hydrogen atoms is also pretty small, but still... what effect would a well aimed magnetic field have on them?

You can read about the effects of strong magnetic forces on water molecules, hydrogen bonding and processes dependent on the rate of proton exchange (ionization, for example) http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html"

 

[wil3]

Water is naturally dimagnetic. this occurs when all electrons within the molecule exist paired in molecular orbitals. This is important because the opposite spin of hte electrons within the orbital neutralizes the intrinsic magnetic properties of electrons, and so the net molecule actually is repulsed by magnets.

Dimagnetism is commonly exploited in basic levitation experiments, such as levitating pyrolytic graphite or bismuth slugs. The dimagnetism of water is exhibited in experiments such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E", where a frog was levitated by a powerful magnet because of its high water content. A stream of water can also be deflected by a charged balloon or static field.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation

http://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/diamagnetism_www/index.html

 

[Borek]

I wonder what currents are induced in the levitating animal.

 

[wil3]

I wonder what currents are induced in the levitating animal.

The electromagnet is a DC device, and so by Faraday's law no currents are induced in nearby conductors until the signal in the magnet varies. When the power to the magnet is turned on or off there may be eddy currents in neighboring conductors, but the frog is likely safe because it has a very high internal resistance.

Interesting point though. I wonder what other effects a powerful magnetic field can have on living organisms?

 

[Borek]

The electromagnet is a DC device, and so by Faraday's law no currents are induced in nearby conductors until the signal in the magnet varies.

Just because magnetic field is constant doesn't mean magnetic flux through the circuit inside of the frog is constant. Quite the opposite - frog is moving, so the flux must be changing.

 

[wil3]

Just because magnetic field is constant doesn't mean magnetic flux through the circuit inside of the frog is constant. Quite the opposite - frog is moving, so the flux must be changing.

Whoa, I never even considered that! Does it matter that the most of the frog's motions are in the same plane (ie, it waves its arms around, but it does not move up and down). Because since most of the motion is lateral, doesn't that mean the flux (which is relative to the plane) does not change?

 

[Borek]

Look at the flux definition - while there exist movements that mean constant flux, any wobbling must lead to flux changes. Muscle contraction - that leads to cross section change - must mean flux change. And so on.

 

[wil3]

Oh, okay! So because the frog is wobbling, and not just shifting left and right, that means that the area intersecting the field is changing, altering the flux. I see what you mean- thanks! : ]

 

[another idiot]

The electromagnet is a DC device

i would have to say that the electromagnet CAN BE a DC device, but doesn't neccessarily have to be driven by a constant DC... what about a coil driven by a unidirectional pulse signal?... a coil doesn't have to produce a steady constant magnetic field, and in the system that i describe, it doesn't...

 

[another idiot]

i'm glad I'm not that frog though...

 

[wil3]

Oh, lol, I meant that this particular electromagnet would have been a high current constant signal DC device. I mean, of course there are different DC signals that can be used in the coil, but in general most electromagnets being used for their brute strength tend to be straight DC.

And I agree, I am glad I am not the frog as well. I am also glad I am not the monkey that NASA sent into space, or the sheep scientists practiced cloning with.

 

[another idiot]

perhaps i should put together a vid or picture clearly showing the system I'm wondering about. will get back to you all with that one...
but then again maybe i should just build the thing and see if it works... after all, the scientific method is to test a theory by experiment, not just to ask other people if a thing could work... if i ever track down the parts i need to make it i'll have to give it a go...

 

[chem123]

I encoutered a company a couple of years ago that was making water and oil emulsions by passing the coarse oil and water mixture through a magnetic field. Very simple device that did produce oil and water emulsions but their stability was not nearly as good as those produced by coventional high pressure emulsification techniques. I enquired to the company about how in fact the emulsification process was working inside the magnetic field and they mentioned something about the magnetic properites of water. They were very vague.
After seeing the device work, it seemed to me that the location of the magnetic field was just a more contstricted portion of the emulsification cycle through the device and the emulsification was purely mechanical. But I don't know, the company apparently had PhD research being done on the device. Food for thought.

 

[Borek]

I won't quote a source now, but I have read a paper in the peer reviewed journal about use of magnetic field for scale protection - they have found that magnetic field starts deposition of scale not on the internal tubes surface, but in the water volume, so it is easier to remove. Or something like that - I don't remember details

 

[another idiot]

i thought you didn't like my magnetic water question Borek... glad to see you're still taking an interest. i guess i could have phrased it better though...
back on the subject of funny videos did you ever see this version of the hutchison effect? it's a classic, i love this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8pTio26Xgw&feature=fvw&pos=0

 

[LawrenceM]

Is there a floating frog forum in here? or can someone start one? I need to brush up on my dimagnatism theory.