News Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

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A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, flight MH17, crashed in eastern Ukraine while traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, with reports indicating it was shot down by a missile, likely from a Buk launcher. Ukrainian officials claim the aircraft was downed by pro-Russian separatists, who initially mistook it for a military plane. All 295 passengers and crew on board are presumed dead, with at least 23 Americans among them. U.S. intelligence has confirmed a surface-to-air missile was involved but remains divided on whether it was launched from Ukrainian or Russian territory. The situation has raised significant international concern and calls for accountability regarding the incident.
  • #51
What have Dutch or Malay PF members to say?
 
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  • #53
Monique said:
It's upsetting how long it takes to get experts to the region to start the recovery of victims and investigation of the attack. People are rummaging through the wreckage and are loading debris into trucks, most evidence must be gone by now.

I heard a radio report this morning from a reporter who arrived at the scene yesterday. He noted where some large pieces had landed. He came back a while later to document it, only to discover the wreckage was gone.

IMO, it would take a planned effort to move large pieces - it's not something a "casual" looter would take.

It's especially infuriating that the party who appears to be guilty of pulling the trigger has appointed itself in charge of the investigation.
 
  • #54
I think it is a combination of local sympathisants/supporters and separatists, these people are on tape loading trucks with airplane debris. The same with the black box, the separatists were denying having black boxes, until someone broadcast the tape with them walking around with one.

Military action has been considered to secure the area, but no-one dares to send troops there in fear of escalation. A reference was even made to 1914.
 
  • #55
Some classic Russian misdirection.
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

They show the missiles (that we know the 'rebels' moved into place from intercepts) in place near the possible launch site (They claim they are Ukraine’s air defense but only the only possible military targets for Ukraine would be it's own aircraft in that area) and then talk about a SU-25 far in front and much lower (they say it could climb to 10km but never said it did) than MH17 for some reason with no evidence it did anything to the plane even while they have space based reconnaissance on the area that should have detected a launch if it happened but we know it didn't because they would have released that in a second to prove their case.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/john-ke...russia-with-mh17-disaster-20140721-zv4mz.html
"There's enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence that I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Mr Kerry said.

I think it's time to show our hand.
 
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  • #57
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...78fe58-11e1-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html

Analysts at the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are continuing to examine information about the crash, but the officials said the intelligence assembled in the five days since the attack points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists in territory they control in eastern Ukraine.

The senior intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.
...
Russia has gone to significant lengths to disguise that flow of weaponry, the officials said, by delivering equipment that matches the inventory of Ukraine’s military. In some cases, the officials said, Russia appears to have pulled aging and inactive tanks out of storage because shipping newer ones would make it obvious that Russian arms were flowing into Ukraine.

“We think they’re continuing to do it” in the aftermath of the strike on the Malaysian aircraft, one of the intelligence officials said.
...
The U.S. officials said they have confirmed the authenticity of some of those recordings, including one in which the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane at the time the Malaysian aircraft was struck.

Analysis comparing that audio clip to other confirmed recordings of Strelkov’s voice “confirmed these were authentic conversations,” one of the officials said.

Hand played.

As expected the people who fired that missile were running it without the command truck that gives them identification (IFF mode 3 for airliners) and designation of targets. The only reason to operation the BUK in stand-alone mode with the primitive internal targeting radar the only gives you a blip on a screen is if you have no planes like the 'rebels' do and don't give a crap about what you hit.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/
 
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  • #58
Prayers to all the victims and families of Flight MH17.
 
  • #59
Monique said:
... but no-one dares to send troops there in fear of escalation. A reference was even made to 1914.

Recognition of the possibility of escalation is rational, but I think it should not become the entire discussion.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn said:
...To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die; there is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal...
link
 
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  • #60
Absolutely right, world leaders are playing chess and thinking many steps in advance to maintain relationships with allies. Each country has their own allies to keep by its side, creating a complex system.

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?
 
  • #61
Monique said:
Absolutely right, world leaders are playing chess and thinking many steps in advance to maintain relationships with allies. Each country has their own allies to keep by its side, creating a complex system.

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

I had heard of a suggestion to use energy (oil, natural gas, I assume) from Algeria.
 
  • #62
If only each country had their own energy reserves. This world would be so much more peaceful :(

Russia will be in big trouble if euro countries cut their energy contacts.
 
  • #63
Monique said:
I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

Why amusing? You assume a U.S. supply of gas to the EU is not possible? Why not?
 
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  • #64
It's hard to describe amusing. He freely speaks his mind and doesn't observe what would be politically correct in this situation. I'm not sure whether I would want him for president, but his statements were refreshing.

And all respect to the US, but wouldn't it be convenient for the States for Europe to be dependent on their energy reserves? If it is possible or not, I'm not an expert in these things..
 
  • #65
Greg Bernhardt said:
If only each country had their own energy reserves. This world would be so much more peaceful :(
I doubt that an every "man is an island" strategy is the path to peace. That is, after handing each theoretically self-contained country its own energy I think we'd quickly find they would also require ... a self-contained food supply, fresh water, mineral resources, sophisticated transportation system, high tech manufacturing, great universities, thriving economy, free press and speech and practice of religion ... etc. And there would still be conflict.
 
  • #66
Monique said:
And all respect to the US, but wouldn't it be convenient for the States for Europe to be dependent on their energy reserves?
What do you mean by "convenient"? It implies to me you think the US would use that dependence for some sinister purpose. Would we be better or worse to buy from than Russia?
 
  • #68
Astronuc said:
Hmmmm. Has that been substantiated?

http://news.yahoo.com/grieving-dutc...think-russia-sanctions-003553898--sector.html

Yes, an example: looters used British victim's bank cards http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/flight-mh17/59667/mh17-looters-used-british-victims-bank-cards or: Victims' phones answered by strangers, relatives say http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-lo...y-strangers-relatives-say-20140723-zw6uo.html or: woman poses in make up looted from victims of flight MH17 downed in Ukraine http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pro-russian-woman-poses-make-up-3915258
 
  • #70
Monique said:
Absolutely right, world leaders are playing chess and thinking many steps in advance to maintain relationships with allies. Each country has their own allies to keep by its side, creating a complex system.

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

mheslep said:
Why amusing? You assume a U.S. supply of gas to the EU is not possible? Why not?
Or perhaps intriguing. Although I could see EU folks being amused by such an offer. Sustainable perhaps, but certainly subject to the vagaries of the market and geopolitical events, and also, there would be a monetary cost.

Recently one of our monthly electrical bills spiked to nearly double from the same period a year earlier, even though we actually used less electricity. When so many folks complained, the utility pointed fingers at 'the market' and said supply was tight and demand higher than normal. Well we used less electricity, but apparently there were others who needed more electricity. Since the utility divested itself of generation (deregulation failed), they buy on the spot market. Now they simply pass along the cost of poor planning, since they don't have to be prepared.

As for the promised competition and reduced prices - that didn't happen. There was no competition - there was no cost reduction - and still isn't. But the folks who did the deals did make lots of money. Oh, now consumers are being asked to pay more, so that the utility will be encourage to expand infrastructure in order to ensure more reliability in the future.


But I digress or diverge, so let's get back OT.

That's really horrible that the folks on the ground would loot the victims, who aren't even involved in the local conflict, but unfortunate, just happened to be passing by. Collateral damage, I guess. :frown:
 
  • #71
mheslep said:
USA Today reports it had journalists on the ground at the crash site (Filip Warwick and Jabeen Bhatt). They report obvious evidence of rampant looting.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ia-plane-ukraine-debris-field-scene/12827931/

It's not that I doubt there was (or is) looting - we are talking about a war-stricken region, with people likely deprived of basic commodities - but I do not think they reported any evidence of rampant looting; they just mentioned it in passing. This is a recurrent problem with this event: a lot of people, including high-ranking officials, say something, failing miserably to substantiate their claims.
 
  • #72
voko said:
It's not that I doubt there was (or is) looting - we are talking about a war-stricken region, with people likely deprived of basic commodities - but I do not think they reported any evidence of rampant looting; they just mentioned it in passing. This is a recurrent problem with this event: a lot of people, including high-ranking officials, say something, failing miserably to substantiate their claims.

Voko, but to be precise using air crash victim credit cards seems like an almost Russian tradition, IMO. In case of Smoleńsk (2010) crash, Russian military units also could not resist such temptation. (No war that time)
 
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  • #73
Please be sure if you do not cite a source that you state it as an opinion.
 
  • #75
Evo said:
Please be sure if you do not cite a source that you state it as an opinion.

For obvious (and not so obvious for those outside Poland) reasons the case was heavily commented on in Polish media, so we (Czcibor and I) take it as a known fact (just like you would probably not ask for a source for the claim Martin Luther King was killed by J.E.Ray :wink:).

I am far from overgeneralizations, I believe such thugs can appear everywhere. Fact is - it happened in Smoleńsk, it happened now.
 
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  • #76
Anyway, I find it somewhat peculiar, that if Evo did not know some basic and uncontroversial fact (Russian did not challenge it and already sentenced those constripts) related to subject instead of making one immediate google search, decided instead to spend more time to edit my post.

But it's only my opinion.
 
  • #77
Here is the tiniest of hints that the MSM is beginning to walk the dog back.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

Another, even earlier hint from the UK media:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-shot-down-says-russian-officer-9619143.html

A senior Russian officer has claimed that a Ukrainian military jet was flying just a few kilometres from the Malaysia Airlines plane minutes before it was downed, while also refuting allegations that it had provided separatists with BUK missile launchers.

In a statement to a press conference today, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov said the Defence Ministry would like to know “why the military jet was flying along [the same civil aviation lines] at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane.”

The SU-25 was, Mr Kartopolov says, gaining height and reached a distance of three to five kilometres from the Boeing 777.

Russian officials say they have evidence of the jet’s presence following images taken by the Rostov monitoring centre, and has urged the US to release satellite images taken at the time of the crash.

Mr Kartopolov, a senior member of the Russian military forces, said that Ukraine’s claims that no military jet operated near the site of the crash last Thursday are “false.”

He told the room that the jets “can briefly climb up to 10,000metres [and are] regularly equipped with air-to-air missiles R-60 that can capture and destroy targets of a distance up to 12km and up to 5km as guaranteed.”
 
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  • #78
  • #79
Evo said:
That's just saying they probably could not tell it was a commercial airliner, nothing new.

Exactly, unfortunately the Russians designed the missile system with override autonomous modes that when used by someone with little knowledge of commercial aircraft flight parameters made this incident very likely and that was a very reckless thing to do with without a strict command and control protocol. It's like handing the keys to your Corvette to a 16 year old on a hot date. The 'rebels' are responsible but IMO they don't bear total responsibility.

The autonomous modes are intended for last-ditch use by the Telar operators, not the more highly trained crews in the battery command vehicle. According to an experienced analyst of Russian-developed radar, the automatic radar modes display targets within range. The operator can then command the system to lock up the target, illuminate and shoot.

Critically, these backup modes also bypass two safety features built into the 9S18M Snow Drift radar: a full-function identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system and non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR) modes. The IFF system uses a separate interrogator located above the main radar antenna and most likely will have been upgraded to current civilian standards.
...
but one of the most basic – jet engine modulation, or the analysis of beats and harmonics in the radar return that are caused by engine fan or compressor blades – should easily discriminate among a 777 with high-bypass turbofans, a turboprop transport or an Su-25 attack fighter.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/buk-missile-system-lethal-undiscriminating
 
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  • #80
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some of it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

A somewhat lengthy memo, but interesting, especially in its drawing parallels with the KAL007 event.

Signed:

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)

Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.)

Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)
 
  • #81
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/21/us-ukraine-crisis-mh17-germany-idUSKBN0HG08520140921

(quote)

(Reuters) - Survivors of German victims of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 downed over Ukraine plan to sue the country and its president for manslaughter by negligence in 298 cases, the lawyer representing them said on Sunday.

Professor of aviation law Elmar Giemulla, who is representing three families of German victims, said that under international law Ukraine should have closed its air space if it could not guarantee the safety of flights.

"Each state is responsible for the security of its air space," Giemulla said in a statement emailed to Reuters. "If it is not able to do so temporarily, it must close its air space. As that did not happen, Ukraine is liable for the damage."

(end quote)
 
  • #82
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29548942#
Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans has said that one of the 298 people killed in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines plane over eastern Ukraine was found wearing an oxygen mask.

His revelation casts doubt on the theory that all on board died instantly when the plane was hit by a missile.

An http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf last month said flight MH17 broke up in mid-air after being hit by "objects" that "pierced the plane at high velocity".

Rebel leaders deny shooting it down.
 
  • #83
Yes, he revealed that yesterday to defend that some passengers probably did suffer. However, it is still under investigation how the oxygen mask ended up around the passenger's neck. No fingerprints or saliva/DNA were retrieved from it, leaving some room for interpretation.
 
  • #84
Sad, but I think "died instantly" is just a comforting thing told to victims families sometimes. A jetliner is big and a missile can make it break apart, but I know of no mechanism by which it could kill everyone onboard instantly.
 
  • #85
russ_watters said:
but I know of no mechanism by which it could kill everyone onboard instantly.
I thought the blast wave would knock everyone unconscious (at least stun them) and the lack of oxygen would be deadly. I have no knowledge on these missiles and their blast waves upon impact, but it seems plausible. However, one passenger was found with an oxygen mask. Since many passengers were completely stripped off their clothes because of the airflow when falling down, finding someone with a mask is remarkable and one can speculate more people wore them. The investigation is long from finished, at least the chances of it happening again should be reduced.
 
  • #86
Monique said:
I thought the blast wave would knock everyone unconscious

SAMs have been used to knock down aircraft for about half a century, and based on the accumulated evidence I find this unlikely. The explosion happens at a distance, and the charge is optimized not for its sheer blast power, but for efficient acceleration and shaping of the shrapnel jet (likely those "high-energy objects" from the report that destroyed MH17).
 
  • #87
voko said:
SAMs have been used to knock down aircraft for about half a century, and based on the accumulated evidence I find this unlikely. The explosion happens at a distance, and the charge is optimized not for its sheer blast power, but for efficient acceleration and shaping of the shrapnel jet (likely those "high-energy objects" from the report that destroyed MH17).
I don't remember if the aircraft broke up in midair. If so, the "blast wave" of being thrown into the atmosphere at 600 mph as the plane disintegrated might explain the differences. If some passengers were in relatively intact sections of the aircraft that were protected from the wind, they might have had an opportunity to put on an oxygen mask. People who were thrown directly into the wind probably died instantly - either from the wind itself or from being struck by other objects.
 
  • #88
voko said:
SAMs have been used to knock down aircraft for about half a century, and based on the accumulated evidence I find this unlikely. The explosion happens at a distance, and the charge is optimized not for its sheer blast power, but for efficient acceleration and shaping of the shrapnel jet (likely those "high-energy objects" from the report that destroyed MH17).
Yes -- so people inside the shrapnel cone would be shredded with the plane, but the rest of the plane would be relatively intact.
 
  • #89
Borg said:
I don't remember if the aircraft broke up in midair. If so, the "blast wave" of being thrown into the atmosphere at 600 mph as the plane disintegrated might explain the differences. If some passengers were in relatively intact sections of the aircraft that were protected from the wind, they might have had an opportunity to put on an oxygen mask. People who were thrown directly into the wind probably died instantly - either from the wind itself or from being struck by other objects.
Ehh, I don't know how "wind" could kill you either. A pilot once survived being ripped from a disintegrating SR-71 at mach 3. He's lucky it didn't tear him apart, but absent that, it didn't harm him.

Disturbing, but if you remember TWA 800, which blew up a few minutes after taking off from New York in 1996...well, it didn't all "blow-up". The front third of the plane, in front of the wings, "blew up" and the rest of the plane kept flying, fully intact (even gaining altitude), for 30 seconds, then in various stages of break-up for several minutes after that. Most of the people inside were almost certainly alive for the entire ride. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800#In-flight_breakup_sequence_and_crippled_flight
 
  • #90
russ_watters said:
Ehh, I don't know how "wind" could kill you either. A pilot once survived being ripped from a disintegrating SR-71 at mach 3. He's lucky it didn't tear him apart, but absent that, it didn't harm him.
Wouldn't he have been wearing a space suit with a full helmet that would have kept the wind from blowing out his lungs?
russ_watters said:
Disturbing, but if you remember TWA 800, which blew up a few minutes after taking off from New York in 1996...well, it didn't all "blow-up". The front third of the plane, in front of the wings, "blew up" and the rest of the plane kept flying, fully intact (even gaining altitude), for 30 seconds, then in various stages of break-up for several minutes after that. Most of the people inside were almost certainly alive for the entire ride. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800#In-flight_breakup_sequence_and_crippled_flight
I remember that but, they weren't at cruising altitude and speed at that point.
 
  • #91
Borg said:
Wouldn't he have been wearing a space suit with a full helmet that would have kept the wind from blowing out his lungs?.
Yes, he was wearing a space suit, which survived the breakup, but I don't know what "the wind blowing out his lungs" means.
I remember that but, they weren't at cruising altitude and speed at that point.
Yes, but unconsiousness/death are not instant when deprived of oxygen.
 
  • #92
I find this photo hard to understand.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29548942
_77470642_cockpit.gif


Investigators said puncture holes showed small objects had entered the plane from above the cockpit floor
 
  • #93
  • #94


Rebel/Russian produced report.
 
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  • #95
russ_watters said:
Yes, he was wearing a space suit, which survived the breakup, but I don't know what "the wind blowing out his lungs" means.

Yes, but unconsiousness/death are not instant when deprived of oxygen.
Sorry for the late reply. I meant that the sudden and violent exposure to winds at high speeds would cause breathing issues besides just oxygen deprevation. I doubt that the diaphram could overcome the force of the wind at the speeds that were experienced by the passengers being ejected into 600 mph winds (I understand that they would quickly reach a slower terminal velocity). I was also thinking about how some passengers would be more frail than others such that being thrown from the aircraft would cause them to be knocked unconsious right away.

With respect to the SR-71 pilot, I would expect that without a helmet, any wind entering his lungs at those speeds would have a very good chance of tearing him apart from the inside and ripping holes through his chest. :eek:
 
  • #96
http://news.yahoo.com/starts-ukraine-collect-wreckage-mh17-083626955.html
The amateur footage, filmed by a resident of Hrabove, shows people reacting in alarm as wreckage blazes only a few meters away from their homes on the afternoon of July 17. The video is perhaps the first taken immediately after the plane came down.

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-claims-photo-downing-mh17-164455641.html

This fake is so bad it's comical.
 
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  • #97
Today marks the 1st anniversary of the MH17 disaster.
 
  • #98

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11745808/Sickening-footage-of-Russian-backed-rebels-arriving-at-MH17-crash-site-emerges.html
 
  • #99
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/13/c_134710565.htm

The DSB led the investigation into the cause of the crash on July 17 last year and made public the long awaited findings during a presentation at Gilze-Rijen Airbase on Tuesday.

"A 9N314M warhead, launched by a Buk surface-to-air missile system, detonated to the left and above the cockpit," DSB Chairman Tjibbe Joustra said. "The forward section of the aircraft was penetrated by hundreds of high-energy objects coming from the warhead. As a result of the impact and the subsequent blast, the three crew members in the cockpit were killed immediately and the airplane broke up in the air. Wreckage was distributed over various sites within an area of 50 square kilometers. All 298 occupants were killed."

"Other potential causes, such as an explosion inside the airplane or an air-to-air missile, have been investigated and excluded," added Joustra when presenting the reports. "No scenario other than a Buk surface-to-air missile can explain this combination of facts."

The reports stated that the missile was launched from a 320-square-km area in the eastern part of Ukraine, but did not mention the exact location of the launch of the Buk rocket, which could have led to answering the question of responsibility.
 
  • #100
StevieTNZ and nsaspook, thank you for keeping this thread alive. I was inclined to "like" your post, but that seemed inappropriate.

I follow the investigations with great interest. It is my hope that those suspected to be responsible will be found, apprehended and brought to an international court. If found guilty, may they receive the harshest of punishments.

The likelihood of direct or indirect Russian involvement cannot be denied. Although I'm an admirer of the accomplishments of Russian science and technology, I do wish to stress this point. Justice should never come second to the games of politics.
 

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