Manifestation of messenger particles?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the manifestation of messenger particles, particularly in the context of heat transfer in chemical and nuclear reactions. Participants explore the relationship between messenger particles like photons, gluons, W and Z bosons, and the concept of heat as a form of energy. The conversation touches on theoretical implications and the nature of energy transfer mechanisms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that in exothermic chemical reactions, photons are emitted as a result of electron reconfiguration, which can be observed as heat.
  • Others argue that heat transfer mechanisms like conduction and convection are primarily about the random velocities of atoms rather than electronic excitations.
  • A participant mentions that significant energy is required to initiate conduction and convection, suggesting that valence electrons may be excited at high temperatures.
  • One participant asserts that heat is a form of energy and questions the relationship between messenger particles and energy, seeking clarification on their connection.
  • Another participant corrects a claim about energy units, emphasizing that energy is measured in Joules, while also discussing the role of force in energy transfer.
  • Some participants challenge the reasoning behind linking energy to messenger particles, suggesting that breaking down energy into fundamental units does not imply a direct relationship with messenger particles.
  • A later reply disputes the initial claim about conduction and convection, asserting that the explanation provided is incorrect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between messenger particles and heat, with some supporting the connection while others contest the explanations provided. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on the nature of heat and energy transfer.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made regarding the mechanisms of heat transfer and the definitions of energy and force. Some participants reference external sources to support their claims, but these do not resolve the ongoing debate.

pivoxa15
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It is accepted that in exothermic chemical reactions which is essentially a reconfiguration of electrons into a more stable form, photons are emitted. When a molar sample is experimented, we can most easily observe these photons as heat (since not all emit photons in the visible wave length).

If you think about the heat mechanism like convection, conduction. The atoms interact with each other via the collision of the outer shell electrons. When they are exicted the electrons move into a higher level orbit and when they go down again, photon is emitted. So in this way, heat transferred via conduction and conduction is also due to the photon. There is also heat transfer via radiation which obviously is a more direct way of using photons to heat objects.

In nuclear reactions the force carrier are predominantly gluons. However, in nuclear reactors used for energy generation, they claim the energy they derive from nuclear reaction is mainly heat which then goes to heat water and the mechanical energy of the water in the form of steam is able to all sorts of useful work. In this way the manifestation of gluons is heat again.

So the manifestation of photon and gluon is heat. Correct?

What about W and Z bosons? How about the graviton if they exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_particle
 
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pivoxa15 said:
If you think about the heat mechanism like convection, conduction. The atoms interact with each other via the collision of the outer shell electrons. When they are exicted the electrons move into a higher level orbit and when they go down again, photon is emitted. So in this way, heat transferred via conduction and conduction is also due to the photon.

Aren't conduction and convection all about the random velocities of (ground state) atoms, rather than internal electronic excitations?
 
Sometimes, It takes a lot of energy to start a conduction and convection going in a macroscopic sense (i.e. boiling water or cooking with a pan). I imagine when the pan is 200 celsius degrees hot or so some of the valence electrons would be excited to higher levels.
 
I think your original post is nonsense. Heat is just a form of energy, just like electric/nuclear/gravitational potential energy. You can sometimes convert one type of energy into another. What of it?
 
Heat is energy. But energy is in the units of Nm. So a force is recquired to exist in order for energy to occur. Fundalmentally all force comes from the messenger particles according to particles physics today. Therefore there should be a link between messenger particles and energy. A popular form of energy (especially in chemistry and nuclear physics) is heat. Have I made some mistakes in stating this? Why I am nonsensical?
 
Wouldn't it be more correct to say energy is measured in the units of Joules?
Nm=Joules, right?
 
Jarle said:
Wouldn't it be more correct to say energy is measured in the units of Joules?
Nm=Joules, right?

Correct but N which is the unit for force is involved. So energy=>force Whenever a form of energy is observed, a force has occurred which is carried out by messenger particles.
 
pivoxa15 said:
Correct but N which is the unit for force is involved. So energy=>force Whenever a form of energy is observed, a force has occurred which is carried out by messenger particles.

You shouldn't be playing this game to "deduce" the nature of a quantity. After all, I can easily point out that "Nm" is not the most "fundamental" unit of energy. You can further break it down as "kgm^2/s^2", and now what? You are going to then deduce that "energy => length, mass and time", and therefore must have "messenger length, mass and time"? That would sound ridiculous.

Zz.
 
pivoxa15 said:
If you think about the heat mechanism like convection, conduction. The atoms interact with each other via the collision of the outer shell electrons. When they are exicted the electrons move into a higher level orbit and when they go down again, photon is emitted. So in this way, heat transferred via conduction and conduction is also due to the photon.
No, this is not how conduction or convection works.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatra.html#c2

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/phonon.html
 

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