Mathematical Quantum Field Theory - Field Variations - Comments

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around mathematical quantum field theory, specifically focusing on field variations and the terminology associated with jet bundles and Lagrangians. Participants explore concepts related to equations of motion, the structure of jet bundles, and the implications of differential forms in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest using the term "physical jet bundle" for a jet bundle constrained by equations of motion, while others question whether "jet sub-variety" might be more appropriate.
  • There is a discussion about the distinction between "shell" and "prolonged shell" within the context of jet bundles, with some asserting that the subspace exists as a super smooth set, which is sufficient for the theory.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the terminology and whether a simpler version of a generic jet bundle, related to classical mechanics, should still be referred to as a "jet bundle."
  • A question is raised regarding the interpretation of a specific differential 2-form and the significance of a minus sign in the context of field variations and spacetime derivatives.
  • Participants engage in clarifying the wording and definitions in the context of the original post, with some noting typographical errors that have been corrected.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on terminology and the interpretation of mathematical expressions, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved regarding the definitions and implications of jet bundles and field variations.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions highlight the need for clearer terminology and definitions, particularly in relation to the equations of motion and the structure of jet bundles. There are also unresolved questions about the implications of certain mathematical expressions.

Urs Schreiber
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Greg Bernhardt submitted a new PF Insights post

Mathematical Quantum Field Theory - Field Variations
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In leadup to Prop 4.5: maybe say "physical jet bundle" for a jet bundle restricted by equations of motion?
Or should we say "jet sub-variety"?

I know you don't really get into this until ch5 where (I guess?) you impose(?) a specific Lagrangian (action?) on a generic jet bundle, restricting the latter to the ("on-shell"?) subspace satisfying the EoM arising from the Lagrangian? Still, the distinction needs clearer terminology, imho.

Btw, there's a typo in defn 4.7: "Monkowski"
 
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strangerep said:
I know you don't really get into this until ch5 where (I guess?) you impose(?) a specific Lagrangian (action?) on a generic jet bundle, restricting the latter to the ("on-shell"?) subspace satisfying the EoM arising from the Lagrangian?

Yes! All this is now in 5. Lagrangians.

There is considered the "shell" as a subspace ## \mathcal{E} \hookrightarrow J^\infty_\Sigma(E)## of the jet bundle, the vanishing locus of the Euler-Lagrange form, as well as the "prolonged shell" ##\mathcal{E}^\infty \hookrightarrow J^\infty_\Sigma(E)## which is the smaller vanishing locus also of all the "differential consequences" of the equations of motion.

strangerep said:
Or should we say "jet sub-variety"?

In good cases this is a sub-manifold/sub-variety (or rather sub-locally-pro-supermanifold), but this is not necessary for the theory to proceed. The subspace always exists as as super smooth set, and that is all we need.

strangerep said:
In leadup to Prop 4.5: maybe say "physical jet bundle" for a jet bundle restricted by equations of motion?
...
the distinction needs clearer terminology, imho.

Okay, could you give me more precise coordinates in which line you'd like to see the wording improved? I am not sure I see which line you have in mind "in leadup toProp.4.5". Thanks.
strangerep said:
there's a typo in defn 4.7: "Monkowski"

Thanks! Fixed now.
 
[URL='https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/urs-schreiber/']Urs Schreiber[/URL] said:
Okay, could you give me more precise coordinates in which line you'd like to see the wording improved? I am not sure I see which line you have in mind "in leadup to Prop.4.5".
I'm not sure either. Let me read your "Lagrangians" chapter first, and then (possibly) come back to this.

Btw, my background in this comes from dynamical symmetries in ordinary classical mechanics, where one works within a much simpler version of a generic jet bundle, i.e., particle position(s) and all time derivatives thereof. I'm not sure whether one should still call that a "jet bundle", though. (?)
 
strangerep said:
simpler version of a generic jet bundle, i.e., particle position(s) and all time derivatives thereof. I'm not sure whether one should still call that a "jet bundle", though. (?)

Yes, this is the jet bundle of the bundle ##\mathbb{R}^1 \times X \overset{pr_1}{\longrightarrow}\mathbb{R}^1## where ##\mathbb{R}^1## is thought of as the time axis, and where ##X## is the manifold inside which the particles roam. (This is field theory in dimension ## p + 1 = 0 + 1##.)
 
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Near the end of example 4.11:
[URL='https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/author/urs-schreiber/' said:
Urs Schreiber[/URL]]$$d(\delta\phi^a) ~=~ - \delta(d\phi^a) ~=~ \dots $$In words this says that “the spacetime derivative of the variation of the field is the variation of its spacetime derivative”.
Is this just sloppy wording, or does the minus sign somehow not mean anything here? :oldconfused:
 
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strangerep said:
does the minus sign somehow not mean anything here?

We are looking at a differential 2-form, which is the wedge product of a field variation ##\delta \phi^a## with the change ##d x^\mu## in spacetime position. As always for differential forms, we keep track with a sign of the orientation of the infinitesimal volume spanned by this 2-form.

You may change the order of the two 1-forms in the wedge product and equivalently write

$$ d (\delta \phi^a) = d x^\mu \wedge \delta \phi^a_{,\mu} $$
 

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