Insights Misconceptions about Virtual Particles - Comments

  • #51
ddd123 said:
Wave particle duality is a half truth because of Hilbert space (as atyy has explained a few times),

It's at best a half truth because it's WRONG ie with a wave multiplying it by a phase factor makes a difference - in QM it doesn't, nor are real waves complex valued. It was known to be wrong when Dirac came up with his transformation theory in 1926, likely 1925 when Heisenberg came up with matrix mechanics and Dirac q numbers a little after.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #52
I mean, taking these bookkeeping mechanisms so literally, isn't it as if I owed you two apples, and these enter a mysterious state of negative reality thereby becoming negapples, from which they pop out again when I return the apples? At this point I don't think making this story up is justified, it's sensationalism isn't it?

Are you afraid of saying, e.g., Stephen Hawking has to round up his budget by selling books? :P
 
  • #53
ddd123 said:
but I don't understand why they use them as popularization as it's not needed.

What precisely don't you get about loose heuristic thinking for pictorial vividness? Seriously it's not hard.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #54
bhobba said:
What precisely don't you get about loose heuristic thinking for pictorial vividness? Seriously it's not hard.

Because for me a heuristic still involves a calculation. Like when you use Newtonian formulas to derive the Hawking temperature of a black hole. Or old quantum theory when you quantize electron "orbits".
 
  • #55
ddd123 said:
At this point I don't think making this story up is justified, it's sensationalism isn't it?

In case you haven't figured it out yet in physics there are many incorrect concepts you learn when starting out that later you have to unlearn. Feynman commented on it. He didn't like doing it but realized you can't tell the truth from the start because you don't have the background to understand it. You don't have the background to understand a Dyson series, asymptotic divergences, perturbation theory, complex integrals etc etc. So they are loose with these concepts and speak of the lines in a Feynman diagram as being real. Later you learn they are not.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #56
But there's no such picture in Hawking radiation. In fact, from the site that was linked earlier: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/BlackHoles/hawking.html

we read:

you'll find Hawking radiation explained this way in a lot of "pop-science" treatments: Virtual particle pairs are constantly being created near the horizon of the black hole, as they are everywhere. Normally, they are created as a particle-antiparticle pair and they quickly annihilate each other. But near the horizon of a black hole, it's possible for one to fall in before the annihilation can happen, in which case the other one escapes as Hawking radiation.

In fact this argument also does not correspond in any clear way to the actual computation. Or at least I've never seen how the standard computation can be transmuted into one involving virtual particles sneaking over the horizon, and in the last talk I was at on this it was emphasized that nobody has ever worked out a "local" description of Hawking radiation in terms of stuff like this happening at the horizon. I'd gladly be corrected by any experts out there... Note: I wouldn't be surprised if this heuristic picture turned out to be accurate, but I don't see how you get that picture from the usual computation.
 
  • #57
ddd123 said:
Because for me a heuristic still involves a calculation.

Heuristic: involving or serving as an aid to learning, discovery, or problem-solving.

And that is exactly what treating them as real is and why even experts are sometimes loose about it.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #58
ddd123 said:
Where does exactly this vacuum fluctuations causing the Hawking radiation heuristic come from?
It comes from taking pieces of intuition and connecting them with a plausible narrative.

A slightly improved version of the following is now an Insight Article.

The starting point is the sound knowledge
that there are technical notions of vacuum fluctuations (= nonzero vacuum expectation values), virtual particles (=internal lines in a Feynman diagram), and that in bare quantum field theory with a cutoff, the vacuum is a complicated multiparticle state depending on the cutoff - though in a way that it diverges when the cutoff is removed, so that nothing physical remains. Then the question arises: is there anything about it to convey a bit of this to ordinary people? It is highly unsatisfactory not to be able to talk about what one is doing in one's research...

So one goes for analogies and images. Already calling internal lines ''virtual particles'' is a step in this direction. Allow yourself a little more liberty and combine it with Feynman's classical absorber theory of radiation; after all Feynman also invented the diagrams bearing his name, possibly even inspired by this analogy. The lines defining the virtual particles look like world lines in a classical process, so why not interpret them (in one's imagination) as the quantum remnants of the classical world lines of Feynman's earlier (later abandoned) theory? This happy accident makes the story possible. It is not completely accurate but plausible (in the absence of correction of the intuition by mathematical formulas) because both classical particles and virtual particles are represented pictorially by lines, and it is something that ordinary people can imagine. This is the beginning of the myth. An extra reassurance that you are on a good path is that the arrows that physicists draw on their diagrams (to indicate the sign of conserved quantum numbers) happen to match Feynman's classical idea that antiparticles are just particles moving backward in time.

To bring in more physics one has to be able to interpret complete Feynman diagrams. Tree diagrams are easy but bring in a new aspect. They talk about real and virtual particles. On an electron line containing two vertices, the electron changes its status from being real (external) to being virtual (internal) and back (external) again. We learn from it a new fact - a virtual particle can become real, and conversely. The interpretation as world lines teaches us other things: A single Feynman diagram should in fact be considered just as a tiny snapshot of an extended web containing all particles in the universe; after all, world lines do not begin and end nowhere. Thus ''in reality'' (meaning in the simplified reality pained for the general public) all particles should be viewed as virtual until they are observed (where they obviously are real). This matches a version of the Copenhagen interpretation: Unobserved particles have a sort of ghost existence, since properties emerge only when they are subjected to a quantum measurement. You are pleased by this coincidence - it seems to say that there is a coherent story to be told. Also, since most of the lines in Feynman diagram end, you have a layman's picture for decaying particles: What you see in a bubble chamber is just a Feynman diagram made visible! This is the first serious manifestation of the myth. In spite of lacking any grounding in real physics (being grounded instead in visual analogy), you feel entitled to make this identification since it serves your final goal, to make some of the intricacies of microphysics accessible to the general public.

The next thing is to interpret the bare multiparticle state. It is obviously a complex superposition of bare particles. Make the next move to identify bare particles with virtual particles; after all both are unobservable but appear in some version of the formalism. Then you have the picture of the vacuum as teeming with particles. From the form of the Feynman diagrams (now looking at loop diagrams) you can read off that in order to make sense of the narrative these particles pop in and out of existence. This is the birth of the next item in the myth. That in a superposition nothing dynamical happens is a small nuisance that you happily sacrifice in order to be understandable to your intended audience. After all you can now give an illusion of having conveyed something of the complexities of the naive perturbative approach without having to talk about perturbation theory. In addition, without asking for it, you have found an unexpected visual interpretation of the notion of a vacuum fluctuation - clearly a teeming vacuum where particles constantly pop in and out of existence fluctuates, and each single act of popping may rightfully be regarded as a fluctuation of the vacuum. Another piece of the myth has found its place. Never mind that there is not the slightest way of justifying this analogy on the level of mathematical formulas. What counts is how the picture appeals to the general public, and it is obvious that drastic simplifications are needed to achieve this goal.

Now one needs to worry about the basic principles of physics in all this. After all, one doesn't want to talk about particles alone but convey some general physics as well. Let us bring in conservation laws. Everyone knows that energy is conserved in Nature. But wait, doesn't the creation of particles require some energy? Don't mind, quantum mechanics comes to the rescue. People will have heard of the Heisenberg uncertainty relation, and if they haven't this is an opportunity to make your audience acquainted with it. It states the intrinsic uncertainty of position and momentum in nonrelativistic mechanics. What does it tell about energy conservation? Nothing at all, but analogy comes to the rescue. In relativistic physics time is the 4th coordinate of position and energy the 4th coordinate of momentum. Thus we don't make a big blunder if we consider a time-energy uncertainty relation. (Though time is nowhere in mainstream physics an operator observable.) Uncertain energy can be liberally interpreted as a slightly inaccurate conservation law. After all, one can derive from quantum mechanics only that the expectation of the energy operator is conserved. Expectation brings to mind that whatever you measure inaccurately must be measured many time for getting an improved accuracy. Thus only the average energy needs to be conserved. Reinterpret the average (in the service of simplifying the physics to give your audience a coherent story) as an average in time.

Thus you found the solution: Energy can be borrowed for a short period of time if it is returned on the average. The next item of the myth arrived. Now you are quite confident that you'll be able to get a full and rich story (for laymen only, so all the small blunders made can be excused) and continue to turn it into something you'll tell in public (or write in a book). You hope that the attentive audience will not ask where the energy is borrowed from, but unfortunately you told the story first a colleague with an unbiased mind and he insisted on that this should be clarified first. You need to look at some more pieces of information to get the next input. Fortunately you soon find it: The zero-point energy of a harmonic oscillator had in the past always been ignored by saying that only energy differences are observable. Maybe it is the bank from which the virtual particles lining up for popping into existence can borrow their energy. And yes - it turns out that the bare quantum field has a huge amount of zero point energy - an infinite amount if you take the physical limit. Clearly this must be the source - and no ordinary person will be interested to question it. Thus the final piece of the myth arrived. You are happy - it will be a really good story conveying a lot of physics while still understandable to ordinary people.

That there is no physical mechanism for how the borrowing works is a small nuisance that (for the layman) can be ignored - after all, they want a simple story that they can believe, not a technical discussion of all the problems involved - they know that quantum mechanics is full of unresolved problems. At this point your story is already so convincing that you don't mind that all observable quantities also become infinite in the limit considered, and that when you instead do a proper renormalization (needed to get the high accuracy predictions quantum field theory is famous for) the whole capital of the vacuum energy bank shrinks to zero.

Now the particle philosophy for the laymen is essentially complete. Only a few - to laymen imperceptible - jumps of the imagination were needed in the service of understandability. Like in a cinema, where the pictures jump in discrete steps but provide a sufficient illusion for the audience to see a continuous story. To make sure that the audience, captured by the imaginative illusion, will not take it for physical reality, and to ensure that your status as a respected scientist is preserved, you begin with a caveat (like Steve Carlip did - see post #5 - before he entered the mythical narrative): ''Be warned - the explanations here are, for the most part, drastic oversimplifications, and shouldn't be taken too literally.'' But in spite of this you can instead be sure that most of your audience will ignore this sentence said in the first few seconds in favor of the nice pictures that you took a whole hour to explain and make intelligible.

When Hawking discovered what was later called Hawking radiation this picture for the general public was already well entrenched. So he only had to figure out how his discovery would fit in - and it fitted well. Instead of talking about gravitational energy (not visible, hence a sort of vacuum) creating a particle-antiparticle pair one partner of which escapes there is only a small step to saying what the educated general public expects. Since the particles are not (yet) observable by the far away observer seeing only the radiation, they must be sold according to the philosophy developed above as virtual particles created (hence vacuum fluctuations in action). Years later, when one of the particles is finally observed by the far away observer, it becomes real as a piece of the observable Hawking radiation.

Thus if you want to summarize to lay people the Hawking effect in a single phrase, what is more natural than to say that ''vacuum fluctuations cause the Hawking radiation'' without repeating the warning ''This shouldn't be taken too literally''?
 
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  • #59
A. Neumaier said:
Thus if you want to summarize to lay people the Hawking effect in a single phrase, what is more natural than to say that ''vacuum fluctuations cause the Hawking radiation'' without repeating the warning ''This shouldn't be taken too literally''?

This is the answer I feared. I don't think it's akin to Feynman's slight oversimplification in the beginning of the QFT story. It seems like a terrible outcome, in which a very slight imprecision is met with such a widespread enthusiasm it is insisted upon a little more. Then pieces are added little by little until you've created a big fraud that runs in parallel with actual science. It's what psychologists call "entrapment", instead of admitting a loss you keep investing upon it because it's become too big to count as a loss, you need to put more and more on stake to make it salvageable.

I know physicists who work at CERN who believe in virtual particle's existence. I've seen you reply on one nature's article saying virtual particles are real because of QCD, so you know what I'm talking about, it's not just a problem of popularization but it's feeding misconceptions of the physicists themselves (except those who specialize in QFT technicalities, I suppose). Isn't this getting out of hand?
 
  • #60
bhobba said:
:smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::smile:

That is indeed the modern view.

Thanks
Bill

From the point of view of QFT, a constant background energy is unobservable, so there is no reason not to define things so that the vacuum state has zero energy. However, when people eventually start dealing with quantum gravity, they might want to reassess this, because a constant background energy would contribute to spacetime curvature.
 
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  • #61
ddd123 said:
Isn't this getting out of hand?
It has been out of hand for many years now. It is a very bad state of affairs, and difficult to reverse since fantasy sells much better than science. But physics goes on as always, and the textbooks on QFT are much better than their popular science counterpart.

Perhaps someone reading this here has the motivation, time, and patience to edit the wikipedia articles (anyone can!) and fight the changes through (which is likely to be hard and time-consuming - I won't do it). It would be best if the most infected pages would get split into two, as suggested here.
 
  • #62
stevendaryl said:
From the point of view of QFT, a constant background energy is unobservable, so there is no reason not to define things so that the vacuum state has zero energy. However, when people eventually start dealing with quantum gravity, they might want to reassess this, because a constant background energy would contribute to spacetime curvature.
In quantum gravity, there is no distinguished vacuum; this is what the Unruh effect demonstrates. Thus there is also no vacuum energy. In full quantum gravity, there is also no background, as the metric is generated dynamically.

There are of course contributions of the various fields to the energy density, but these are everywhere exactly canceled by the gravitational energy. This happens classically as a consequence of what remains from Noether's theorem, and it would be strange if the quantum version wouldn't show the same feature.

The specific distribution of the various forms of energy are properties of the state realized by Nature, not of the quantum gravity theory itself. The latter is about all possible states, while Nature realizes only one of these. Our existence and what we observe proves that this state is neither a vacuum state, nor one obtained from such a state by considering it in the coordinates of a different observer.

Thus a reassessment of the question can only render it meaningless. That it is a question now is only because people are working on small trial fragments and try from these to make guesses about the whole thing without taking into account all constraints. This is legitimate as long as the final theory is not yet clear (since one doesn't know in advance where the relevant changes are needed) but must be a temporary feature that goes away when the final word can be spoken.
 
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  • #63
ddd123 said:
This is the answer I feared. I don't think it's akin to Feynman's slight oversimplification in the beginning of the QFT story. It seems like a terrible outcome, in which a very slight imprecision is met with such a widespread enthusiasm it is insisted upon a little more. Then pieces are added little by little until you've created a big fraud that runs in parallel with actual science. It's what psychologists call "entrapment", instead of admitting a loss you keep investing upon it because it's become too big to count as a loss, you need to put more and more on stake to make it salvageable.

I know physicists who work at CERN who believe in virtual particle's existence. I've seen you reply on one nature's article saying virtual particles are real because of QCD, so you know what I'm talking about, it's not just a problem of popularization but it's feeding misconceptions of the physicists themselves (except those who specialize in QFT technicalities, I suppose). Isn't this getting out of hand?

On the other hand, is it so important that laymen have misconceptions about fundamental physics? What experts hope is that the layman's understanding of a technical topic is a subset of the expert's understanding. That is, the layman will of course understand less than the expert, but shouldn't believe false things. That may be desirable, but unrealistic, given the way that human minds work. Nobody is satisfied with an arbitrary collection of facts. They try to piece the facts together into something that seems like a coherent picture. People perform some kind of mental closure operation. Even if the layman is given only true facts, the closure will likely include some false statements. It might be inevitable.

So I don't think that it does any good for the expert to try to correct misconceptions by handing out individual nuggets of truth. You have to try to nudge the layman into a slightly more accurate closure. You can't just tell people: Your intuitive picture is wrong. You have to suggest a different, better intuitive picture. Or at least, that's my experience.
 
  • #64
A. Neumaier said:
Only a sickness of naive QFT with bare particles. In any sensible treatment the (renormalized = physical) vacuum energy is exactly zero by definition - this is the very starting point! And all physical quantities come out finite.
I heard one professor explain that this infinite vacuum energy is fixed by the fact that nearby vibrational modes propagate to that point and tend to cancel out what would otherwise be an infinite energy, or some other words to that effect. Is this the renormaization that you are referring to? Thanks.
 
  • #65
friend said:
I heard one professor explain that this infinite vacuum energy is fixed by the fact that nearby vibrational modes propagate to that point and tend to cancel out what would otherwise be an infinite energy, or some other words to that effect. Is this the renormaization that you are referring to? Thanks.
Nothing cancels; the vacuum energy is exactly zero by construction.

Renormalization of the vacuum energy means that you normally order the expression for the energy. As a result, each harmonic oscillator has ground state energy zero, hence the vacuum energy is zero, too. Normal ordering is the simplest of a number of renormalization steps that are necessary to arrive at a physically acceptable quantum field theory.
 
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  • #66
A. Neumaier said:
Perhaps someone reading this here has the motivation, time, and patience to edit the wikipedia articles

The problem is (if history is any indication) that they will immediately be reverted by someone who thinks he knows what he is doing, but doesn't.
 
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  • #67
Vanadium 50 said:
The problem is (if history is any indication) that they will immediately be reverted by someone who thinks he knows what he is doing, but doesn't.

I say don't worry about it so much. Instead, people who do know what they're talking about should work on two things: (1) Reminding people that popular accounts always are misleading in small or large ways, so you should take what you read with a grain of salt. (2) Work on coming up with more accurate intuitive pictures of physics to replace the less accurate intuitive pictures. Getting rid of all misconceptions is a fools errand.
 
  • #68
bhobba said:
You have been told that's not what is going on. Yet you ignore it, simply say seem as if it makes it true, and continue on regardless.
What I have been told by Leonard Susskind in his ER=EPR lecture to his peers is that space itself is defined in terms of the entanglement of the "virtual particles" that fill all of space. How do I argue with that? Here Prof Susskind is not referring to virtual particles defined in terms of some perturbation series in the calculation of some observable. He says that these virtual particles are those virtual pairs that pop in and out of existence as in the popular accounts.
 
  • #69
friend said:
What I have been told by Leonard Susskind in his ER=EPR lecture to his peers is that space itself is defined in terms of the entanglement of the "virtual particles" that fill all of space. How do I argue with that?

1. You could educate yourself.
2. A good start would be to read his paper with Juan Maldacena where the words "virtual particle" never appear.
 
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  • #70
Vanadium 50 said:
1. You could educate yourself.
2. A good start would be to read his paper with Juan Maldacena where the words "virtual particle" never appear.
There does seem to be different views on that.
 
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  • #71
Vanadium 50 said:
The problem is (if history is any indication) that they will immediately be reverted by someone who thinks he knows what he is doing, but doesn't.
If it is done poorly, yes. To be successful in the enterprise of someone else one must of course respect the rules of the enterprise. Reversions are mainly made when these are not respected. Thus the first thing to do before making the first changes is to read the rules for making good contributions. (Together with the dependent pages it is a lot, but not an endless amount. Knowing and respecting it better than the previous editors of the page is a big plus.)

One must fight them with their own weapons, not against them. If you can argue that all you do is according to your rules - and with higher standards than what was there before - you can re-revert any attempted reversion. (One of my brothers working on the interface of mathematics and music had this experience.) It is not easy but it would be worth doing - it just needs enough time and commitment, good preparation, a perceptive communication style, and a way of writing that accommodates alternative views without compromising correctness.

Thus one needs to make sure that whatever is claimed is justified by an explicit link to a textbook, and whatever is called in question must be done by pointing out the lack of proper sources. Then one can replace it by equivalent but proper text, with proper citations, or add qualifying remarks that this is the popular science version (since only a popular science book or an article in the Scientific American, etc. is cited). Whenever your text fits the rules significantly better than the previous version of the text, your text will stay or be further improved. Each page also has a talk page associated with it where controversies about the content can be discussed prior to corrections made or after corrections have been reverted. This talk page should also be consulted before changing the main page.

Finally, the fitting advice of someone whose students changed the world within a few generations: ''Unless your sense of truth and your knowledge of the rules surpasses that of the scribes and pharisees, you will never reach the goal.'' (Matthew 5:20, my paraphrase)
 
  • #72
A. Neumaier said:
One must fight them with their own weapons, not against them.
Can you create your own wikipedia.org article "Non-existence of virtual particles"?

I think the problem is that virtual particles by themselves (not as part of a perturbation series) have not been fully justified. If they could be explained on first principles and shown how they are used to explain physical properties, then I think this argument would end. This would be equivalent to explaining the necessity of quantum theory to begin with. And I think the present paradigm is to "shut up and calculate". So it will take someone outside that community to get the ball rolling.
 
  • #73
friend said:
virtual particles by themselves (not as part of a perturbation series) have not been fully justified.
They have never been given a meaning; so there is nothing to justify them. Fantasizing something based on words copied from popular lectures and essays is not a way to make science.
 
  • #74
friend said:
Can you create your own wikipedia.org article "Non-existence of virtual particles"? So it will take someone outside that community to get the ball rolling.
Good luck! With the knowledge of quantum mechanics you demonstrated on PF, you'd make things much worse. You didn't heed the final advice of my post #71.
 
  • #75
My experience with Wikipedia is that, in practice, the most crucial content is decided by a tightly knit community of editors that band wih each other to keep a certain narrative in place.

In any case, the example of Susskind is another one. Does anyone want to answer that? Here it's even advanced seminars where the above tale as explained by Neumaier is taken entirely seriously. I still feel justified in asking why is that, even if I end up annoying bhobba.
 
  • #76
ddd123 said:
the example of Susskind is another one
In a book or survey article for physicists? Please give references.
 
  • #77
friend said:
I don't think it's possible to derive the justification of quantum theory from the axioms we now have. Those are just given to us a priori. And why nature operates according to these rules is not apparent yet. What we have so far are just reverse engineering equations that we have converged on through trial and error. So they are just curve fitting equations that happen to work - so far.
Every physical theory is ultimately made to describe experiments. That is the whole point of physics. If you don't like it, go to philosophy. Making up theories that have no connection to our universe is not physics.
If you can find a function that gets fit to 25 data points and then predicts thousands of others, you have a really successful "curve fitting".
 
  • #78
A. Neumaier said:
In a book or survey article for physicists? Please give references.

Friend should give it, but I believe him because I hear it all the time. The next time I'll hear it I'll try to remember to let you know.
 
  • #79
A. Neumaier said:
In a book or survey article for physicists? Please give references.
ddd123 said:
Friend should give it, but I believe him because I hear it all the time.
I found a reference on p.13 of Susskind's TASI lectures where he mentions virtual processes on p.13, without accompanying mathematics. He describes the laymen version of the Hawking effect in similar terms as Carlip - and on a similar level of superficiality. I wonder how he can substantiate his claim there ''the quark spends part of the time in a virtual state with the wrong baryon number even in empty flat space. What percentage of the time is the baryon number wrong? One might think the answer is incredibly small given the stability of the proton. But it is not. An explicit calculation gives a probability [...]''. The calculation would give an indicator of what he means with his talk. But he doesn't even outline it nor give a reference. The same holds for his other statements on the same page, such as ''The baryon number is constantly undergoing very rapid quantum fluctuations''. No substantiation or reference is given; so it is mere rhetorics, not credible physics.

I found another reference on p.7 of his paper on ER=EPR, perhaps related to what friend mentioned. Again only pictures without formulas or references - mere illustrative rhethorics. Indeed, one can easily see that the virtual particles play no role in the remainder of the paper; they are just a casual remark. And the whole paper is very philosophical anyway with very few formulas - not hardcore quantum field theory. He makes other statements that are careless and wrong if taken literally, e.g., on p.2, ''The universe is filled with subsystems, anyone of which can play the role of observer.''

In both cases, Susskind ostensibly applies very low technical standards to his presentation. The papers appear to be transscripts of the actual lectures (in the second case this is explicity stated at the end of p.2), where one often takes ad hoc liberties to keep the audience alive.

The real point is that (to my knowledge) never ever has anyone substantiated the talk about the properties of virtual particles by a mathematical derivation of these properties from the principles of QFT; they appear (with various degrees of sloppiness) exclusively in informal overviews, and thus are nothing but didactical gadgets aimed at capturing the attention of the audience.
 
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  • #80
A. Neumaier said:
"the quark spends part of the time in a virtual state with the wrong baryon number even in empty flat space. What percentage of the time is the baryon number wrong? One might think the answer is incredibly small given the stability of the proton. But it is not. An explicit calculation gives a probability [...]''. The calculation would give an indicator of what he means with his talk. But he doesn't even outline it nor give a reference.

So there are mystery calculations which we cannot know about that contain the secret of the virtual particles, will we get to the bottom of this? Shouldn't this be in some published article? Or does Susskind keep his work private?
 
  • #81
Re: Just Curve Fitting

It always amazes me to see how people who aren't able to do the science themselves belittle those who can. The electron magnetic moment (technically the gyromagnetic ratio) is known to thirteen decimal places. That's certainly more than you'd expect from your dismissive "just curve fitting".
 
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  • #82
friend said:
How do I argue with that? Here Prof Susskind is not referring to virtual particles defined in terms of some perturbation series in the calculation of some observable. He says that these virtual particles are those virtual pairs that pop in and out of existence as in the popular accounts.

By doing a post pointing to the lecture and asking the experts to explain what he said. It's obvious that's how to proceed - why you don't do it and instead keep arguing about it has me beat. I strongly suspect you are misinterpreting what he said, and if its the lectures I am thinking of they are not to his peers - its for a semi lay audience.

Another course is to study the theory for yourself.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #83
friend said:
There does seem to be different views on that.

There isnt. You simply want to read that into it because you have already made your mind up about it. If you think otherwise post a link to a paper that says it and ask the experts here to explain. Unfortunately many papers shouldn't really have passed peer review - but somehow did. The actual scientists that post here are in the best position to judge that.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #84
bhobba said:
and if its the lectures I am thinking of they are not to his peers - its for a semi lay audience.

The culpit lectures at TASI linked by Neumaier? Theoretical Advanced Study Institute in Elementary Particle Physics (TASI).

Refusing to acknowledge the existence of misconceptions among experts won't make them go away. Maybe send Susskind an email.
 
  • #85
ddd123 said:
Refusing to acknowledge the existence of misconceptions among experts won't make them go away. Maybe send Susskind an email.

First we need to know what was said and then we need to know he was not speaking heuristically. I highly doubt both those conditions are meet.

But even aside from that I know I am on firm ground. If those arguing about it can point to a QFT textbook that says it then it will provide evidence - without that - well the implication is obvious.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #86
I'm not doubting that you're right, I'm discussing the problem that extremely influential theorists really do seem to believe in the existence of virtual states or at least discuss them as if they existed with non-lay audiences (the arxiv paper above with the TASI lectures says that minimal string theory knowledge is required - I take that to imply that non-minimal knowledge of QFT is). Neumaier answered me in the affirmative, it is a problem. Also Neumaier seems interested in this sociological conundrum.
 
  • #87
ddd123 said:
I'm discussing the problem that extremely influential theorists really do seem to believe in the existence of virtual states

And I am saying they don't believe that - they are simply being loose. This can go around and around. Since you can't get into their head you can't know. But having studied it I am certain that's what's happening - as anyone would be if they studied any QFT textbook.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #88
Then what is Susskind being loose about when he says, in the TASI lecture linked above, that "An explicit calculation gives a probability for a quark spending a non-infinitesimal time in a virtual state"? I have studied Sterman and I can't answer myself this question. Being dismissive won't help others to dispel the myth.
 
  • #89
ddd123 said:
Then what is Susskind being loose about when he says, in the TASI lecture linked above, that "An explicit calculation gives a probability for a quark spending a non-infinitesimal time in a virtual state"? I have studied Sterman and I can't answer myself this question. Being dismissive won't help others to dispel the myth.
I don't think a calculation showing this exists. Moreover, even if this calculation exists and shows what is claimed it doesn't make his point since virtual states are not states of virtual particles. (See the definitions in the Insight article ”The Physics of Virtual Particles”)

Some related calculation probably exists, but it most likely says something else than what he takes it to mean unless the meaning is taken with many grains of salt (as statements about virtual particles always should - and his (probably grad student) audience should already be aware of this. (He still sets a bad example by being too sloppy.)

Such blunders (of claiming occasionally a bit more in an informal statement than what really holds) are not rare in lectures. I am slightly prone to them myself, even in math, where everything is fully checkable. Note that both sources are not refereed papers but transscripts of lectures placed on the arXiv. I made a search on google scholar and found only these two sources by Susskind involving the word ''virtual particle''. Thus it seems that in his formal publications he is much more careful.

In general, using sloppy language doesn't mean that the user believes in its literal truth. It is used like common currency. Does everyone using a 1-dollar bill express that ''in God we trust''? The majority of users probably mean ''in Gold we trust''.
 
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  • #90
But if even you can't guess what Susskind actually meant, how are his students supposed to understand it?
 
  • #91
ddd123 said:
But if even you can't guess what Susskind actually meant, how are his students supposed to understand it?
I ask this myself about every lecture or paper about many worlds.

In the TASI lectures I have no difficulty guessing the intended meaning. It is clear that Susskind meant to say (and illustrate in a visually impressive way) that Hawking radiation implies that there is a complex ''interplay between gravity and quantum mechanics'' (p.14). The details didn't matter since they were not needed for what follows. (It is usually in such situations that inaccuracies creep into a description.) Thus intelligent students lose nothing by being mystified about his remarks on p.13.

Only the dumb ones that take for gospel everything uttered by a famous physicist have problems. Rightly so. It is the standard payoff of credulosity.
 
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  • #92
Closed for a bit of moderation
 
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  • #93
This thread has been reopened. However, I have to remind everyone that the point of this thread is to discuss the article by @A. Neumaier. Arguments and disagreements with its content should be based on experience with the computations that he describes, not non-specialist and popular presentations.
 
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  • #94
Buzz Bloom said:
any misconceptions related to Hawking radiation and virtual particles? As I recall, it was in the 1970s when I attended a presentation at MIT by Hawking describing his concept of black hole radiation based on the creation of particle pairs [...]
I just learned from a discussion on http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/71/the-h-bar that [quoting ACuriousMind, bold is his]
ACuriousMind said:
Hawking's original article contains the "virtual particle analogy" with an explicit warning that that is not the reason! It says: "One might picture this negative energy flux in the following way. [virtual particles, blah, blah]. It should be emphasized that these pictures of the mechanism responsible for the thermal emission and area decrease are heuristic only and should not be taken too literally."
Indeed, Hawking's original article gives on p.4 the following version of the fairy tale, including the caveat at the end:
S.W. Hawking said:
One might picture this negative energy flux in the following way. Just outside the event horizon there will be virtual pairs of particles, one with negative energy and one with positive energy. The negative particle is in a region which is classically forbidden but it can tunnel through the event horizon to the region inside the black hole where the Killing vector which represents time translations is spacelike. In this region the particle can exist as a real particle with a timelike momentum vector even though its energy relative to infinity as measured by the time translation Killing vector is negative. The other particle of the pair, having a positive energy, can escape to infinity where it constitutes a part of the thermal emission described above. The probability of the negative energy particle tunnelling through the horizon is governed by the surface gravity K since this quantity measures the gradient of the magnitude of the Killing vector or, in other words, how fast the Killing vector is becoming spacelike. Instead of thinking of negative energy particles tunnelling through the horizon in the positive sense of time one could regard them as positive energy particles crossing the horizon on pastdirected world-lines and then being scattered on to future-directed world-lines by the gravitational field. It should be emphasized that these pictures of the mechanism responsible for the thermal emission and area decrease are heuristic only and should not be taken too literally.
In the discussion mentioned above, yuggib also mentioned an (idealized, but within the idealization fully rigorous) derivation by Fredenhagen and Haag.
 
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  • #95
At the heart of this is a little bit of philosophy. Do you prefer an ontology based on the concept of states, or do you prefer an ontology based on Feynman diagrams.

The real answer is that neither quite works in QFT, the Feynman diagram ontology for all the reasons listed here, the state ontology b/c no Hilbert space has ever been constructed for interacting quantum fields in 3 + 1 dimensions (bound states and states in a confining phase are also mathematically difficult to deal with).

So I disagree a little with the thrust of this thread. I would say one uses the concept that is useful to solve problems with. Practicing physicists have absolutely no problem talking about the Dirac sea for instance, even though it's clear the concept has limited validity. In particle physics, it is often useful to visualize things with the Feynman diagram ontology, although again it depends the details of the circumstance. It works great for an Abelian theory like QED, less useful for something like QCD.
 
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  • #96
Haelfix said:
the state ontology b/c no Hilbert space has ever been constructed for interacting quantum fields in 3 + 1 dimensions
This doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, only that the mathematical tools to prove its existence with full rigor are not yet strong enough. The concept of an S-matrix would be completely meaningless if the Hilbert space wouldn't exist. Most physics is not mathematically rigorous, but nevertheless believed to be correct.

Haelfix said:
it is often useful to visualize things with the Feynman diagram ontology
I never disputed that. Diagrams are there to illustrate, not to provide causal agents (as virtual particles are considered in the view for lay people). In the insight article under discussion I had stated explicitly:

The only way the usual dynamical language for virtual particles is justified by the theory is as purely figurative analogy in ”virtual reality”, useful for informal talk about complicated formulas and for superficial summaries in lectures capturing the imagination of the audience. This has to be kept in mind when reading in professional scientific publications statements involving virtual particles. Otherwise many statements become completely misleading, inviting a magical view of microphysics and weird speculation, without the slightest support in theory or experiment.
 
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  • #97
Haelfix said:
At the heart of this is a little bit of philosophy. Do you prefer an ontology based on the concept of states, or do you prefer an ontology based on Feynman diagrams.

The real answer is that neither quite works in QFT, the Feynman diagram ontology for all the reasons listed here, the state ontology b/c no Hilbert space has ever been constructed for interacting quantum fields in 3 + 1 dimensions (bound states and states in a confining phase are also mathematically difficult to deal with).

So I disagree a little with the thrust of this thread. I would say one uses the concept that is useful to solve problems with. Practicing physicists have absolutely no problem talking about the Dirac sea for instance, even though it's clear the concept has limited validity. In particle physics, it is often useful to visualize things with the Feynman diagram ontology, although again it depends the details of the circumstance. It works great for an Abelian theory like QED, less useful for something like QCD.

What's the difference? Feynman diagrams are just a mathematical notation for the perturbation series for S-matrix elements (in the original version applied to "vacuum QFT", i.e., for treating the scattering of two particles (or decays of one particles) into a few other particles). Underlying is just the formalism of QFT, as has been demonstrated by Dyson in 1948ff.

As a practitioner of QFT, including equilibrium and non-equilibrium relativistic many-body QFT, I've never ever used nor had the desire to use the Dirac sea, which doesn't exist but is renormalized away at the very first steps in building up the formalism employing "normal ordering" to define local observables of (asymptotic) free fields.

I also don't know, what you mean by "Feynman diagram ontology". Is there in ontology implied by Leibniz's vs. Newton's notation of calculus or any other mathematical notation used in physics? Imho this is an example for philosophical mumbo-jambo that discredits philosophy in the opinion of many scientists!
 
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  • #98
Hi Vanhees,
vanhees71 said:
I've never ever used nor had the desire to use the Dirac sea, which doesn't exist but is renormalized away at the very first steps in building up the formalism employing "normal ordering" to define local observables of (asymptotic) free fields!
What you say is true, nevertheless, the concept is still utilized all the time by colleagues in solid state physics as a sort of effective description. Indeed it is even utilized more broadly as a cursory google scholar search shows. The point is convenient fictions are ubiquitous in physics.
vanhees71 said:
Feynman diagrams are just a mathematical notation for the perturbation series for S-matrix elements (in the original version applied to "vacuum QFT", i.e., for treating the scattering of two particles (or decays of one particles) into a few other particles). Underlying is just the formalism of QFT, as has been demonstrated by Dyson in 1948ff
I certainly never suggested the contrary.
vanhees71 said:
I also don't know, what you mean by "Feynman diagram ontology". Is there in ontology implied by Leibniz's vs. Newton's notation of calculus or any other mathematical notation used in physics? Imho this is an example for philosophical mumbo-jambo that discredits philosophy in the opinion of many scientists!
Perhaps philosophy is a poor word choice and an example would make the point. When we talk about a background like Higgs to WW(star), what we might have in mind is a decay that first produces a W and a virtual W, and then is completed to a final state which might be something like l l v v. The intermediate state is just going to influence the final amplitude much like an extra slit does in the interpretation of the final result of a double slit experiment. However if you are completely dogmatic about the state interpretation, the first part of the sentence is nonsense as one of the W's is offshell and carries no interpretation as a particle state. Despite this, hundreds of papers analyzing backgrounds has been written about this exact thing. Ok?

So now if you follow this convenient fiction down the rabbit hole, you might ask, well what we measure is actually not even those final leptons (and missing energy). What we measure is a voltage drop after some long chain of indirect emissions, absorptions and inferences. So the curious student would then say.. Wait a second, since what we measure is not those leptons but they in fact have a finite lifetime within the detector, why couldn't I write the whole thing as a larger diagram where the leptons are in fact internal lines of a bigger diagram? What's the difference between doing something like this and talking about virtual W's?

That is the sort of chain of reasoning (and ontology) that Profesor Neumaier I think would reject, for reasons given in this thread and countless others, but my point was that it is sometimes useful to talk about decays like W Wstar.

At the end of the day, philosophy enters into this b/c things we measure don't exactly correspond mathematically to idealized Von Neuman measurements (with perfect response functions) of S Matrix elements in an infinitely large box off in the infinite future. The mathematics is unambigous, but how you apply the math to the physics does correspond to implicit choices.
 
  • #99
A. Neumaier said:
This doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, only that the mathematical tools to prove its existence with full rigor are not yet strong enough. The concept of an S-matrix would be completely meaningless if the Hilbert space wouldn't exist. Most physics is not mathematically rigorous, but nevertheless believed to be correct.

Yes, I agree although I do prefer not to prejudice myself too much. The failure of things like AQFT likely means the tools we use are wrong, but it could also mean that the theory actually doesn't exist or even alternatively a qft in 3+1 might exist but doesn't correspond to anything physical (much like trying to make the Navier-Stokes equation is essentially an academic exercise, as atomic structure enters into the picture at a certain scale).
 
  • #100
Haelfix said:
that it is sometimes useful to talk about decays like W Wstar.
If it is sometimes useful to talk about a decay like this in terms of virtual mythology, could you please be more specific about what its usefulness consists of?

Unstable particles (with complex mass) are very real - in the present case observable as a resonance. I cannot see what's the use of treating them as virtual particles (with real mass). One trades a clear physical picture with a clear mathematical representation (as complex pole of certain cross sections ) for a fuzzy picture in virtual reality without any substance .

After the trade, there is no longer a way of talking about half-life (an essential property an unstable particle) except in terms of a vague reference to an alleged uncertainty principle that would allow particles to pop in and out existence for a split fraction of a picosecond.

So where is the usefulness?

[Added May 2: Part of the subsequent discussion in posts #101-#152, partly based on a misunderstanding on my part, is resolved in post #153.]
 
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