Construction My Storm Shelter: Summer Project w/ Dog Kennels & Lights

[berkeman]

The most dangerous thing I see that is actually in the shelter are the propane bottles. My opinion.

Yeah, maybe better to switch to MREs instead. Some come with a Flamless Ration Heater to give you the ability to have a hot meal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal,_Ready-to-Eat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flameless_ration_heater

 

[Averagesupernova]

Don't get me wrong, I have several in my basement. Of course I walk through there every day and it is a lot bigger than a storm shelter. So I'd likely smell a leaky bottle. Not saying I wouldn't use it as @dlgoff would, but it would be a concern. Knowing someone personally who was involved in a propane explosion gives me second thoughts. It was a basement filled waist high with gas. No smell, leaky underground pipe and the gas made it into the basement. The construction foreman tells me a worker lit a match and it was described that blue flame floated around until the top layer of gas was solid flame. At that instant things happened REALLY fast. Next thing he knew he was in the hospital. Nothing left of the structure. Don't recall if he was found in the rubble or was blown out. So, again, I think twice about propane.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on exactly what such a shelter is for. Some think one occupies it for less than an hour while the worst of the storm passes. Others think you might be living in for days because the house has been blown away, probably to land on some witch somewhere. Of course the different use cases have different requirements, capabilities and risks.

 

[Averagesupernova]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on exactly what such a shelter is for. Some think one occupies it for less than an hour while the worst of the storm passes. Others think you might be living in for days because the house has been blown away, probably to land on some witch somewhere. Of course the different use cases have different requirements, capabilities and risks.

I've thought the same thing. But propane is very useful in a shelter maybe just for lighting for a few minutes.

 

[berkeman]

Knowing someone personally who was involved in a propane explosion gives me second thoughts. It was a basement filled waist high with gas. No smell, leaky underground pipe and the gas made it into the basement.

Ouch! Glad that they survived.

So propane does not incorporate Mercaptan like natural gas distribution does? That seems problematic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanethiol

 

[Averagesupernova]

I am not sure they survived. The foreman did because he was not in the basement. But I am pretty sure (not 100%) that both workers died. Foreman visited his worker at the burn unit, relayed this info to me. Propane loses its smell after filtering through the soil.

 

[berkeman]

Propane loses its smell after filtering through the soil.

Ah, interesting. I did not know that.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Ah, interesting. I did not know that.

I don't ever want to find out personally. This is what I was told at the time. The construction company being involved in lawsuits over the deal implied that I could believe it when I was told.

 

[dlgoff]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

 

[Vanadium 50]

But propane is very useful in a shelter maybe just for lighting for a few minutes.

So is a flashlight.

 

[berkeman]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

LOL. Back in hunting camp we used to have a running joke about this. When a newbie to the group went to light a propane lantern, someone would invariably yell out, "Hey, anybody know anything about these Coleman lanterns?"

But no, no major injuries. Just a few singed eyebrows, and I think you are a bit more skilled than our hunting newbies were.

 

[berkeman]

BTW, I think you may have addressed this before (you said you have a CO detector I think), but how do you ventilate this flame when you are cooking. Do you use some sort of a hood arrangement?

 

[Averagesupernova]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming certain death for you. It's just a consideration.

 

[mfb]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on exactly what such a shelter is for. Some think one occupies it for less than an hour while the worst of the storm passes. Others think you might be living in for days because the house has been blown away, probably to land on some witch somewhere. Of course the different use cases have different requirements, capabilities and risks.

The rate of houses blown away ("I want to live elsewhere for a while") should be much lower than the rate of a risk of such an event ("I better go into the shelter").

Tornadoes are not around for long, right? Cooking can be done outside the shelter if the house was blown away.

 

[Averagesupernova]

If the house is blown away, certain things need to be stashed in the shelter regardless if they are used in there or outside after the event. Smart thing to do is leave them in there permanent. Battery anything is good as far as safety goes compared to gas but of course batteries go dead on the shelf, etc. Pretty sure @dlgoff has been in these situations more than most of us so I'm not going to question much more. Gas is always a concern as I have stated. Not a death sentence. Just be cautious.

 

[mfb]

I mean things like ventilating when cooking - that's easy if you cook outside.

 

[dlgoff]

I think you are a bit more skilled

Well, thank you sir.

BTW, I think you may have addressed this before (you said you have a CO detector I think), but how do you ventilate this flame when you are cooking. Do you use some sort of a hood arrangement?

Yes, there's a CO detector on the wall behind where the camp stove is.

Because carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air ... detectors should be placed on a wall about 5 feet above the floor.

how do you ventilate this flame when you are cooking.

There's are blowers in both in and out ducts. The air flow rate is very high; almost feels like a tornado inside. No pun intended. Here's a picture showing the air flow direction in & out of the shelter:

 

[Tom.G]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

Definitely!

I've had two of them leak in the past four years. Fortunately they were the smaller ones used with a handheld propane torch and they were slow leaks.

Since it wasn't used much, I normally removed the torch head after use, packed everything back into the carrying case, then stored it in the bedroom closet (door opened). Both times when I entered the closet a day or two later I smelled the propane. The first time, I chalked it up to a well-used gas cylinder. The second occurence was after the first use of a new cylinder. The solution was to leave the torch head on the gas cylinder and use the shutoff valve on the torch head to seal things.

The valve in the cylinder is the same design as the tire valve on your car, it depends on a spring pushing a seal against a valve seat. If there is any imperfection or dirt there, it leaks.

You can NOT count on detecting a slow leak while remaining in an enclosed area. Just as with a natural gas leak, your nose fails to detect a very gradual gas build-up.

I was lucky, I wonder how many lives I used up with this. ( meow)

Cheers,
Tom

 

[dlgoff]

The valve in the cylinder is the same design as the tire valve on your car, it depends on a spring pushing a seal against a valve seat. If there is any imperfection or dirt there, it leaks.

Ever consider testing? Stick it under water. You would see a slow leak. I've been using propane torches for probably 30 years and have never experienced this.

BTW Did you not read post #67? With the amount of air moving through the shelter, I think I could open a torch valve an let all the propane escape and the blowers would remove it a matter of seconds.

 

[Tom.G]

As it was the only propane source in the vicinity, I never bothered with the water test... it was easier to reattach the torch head.

Yes, I noticed fans. The massive air movement for your particular case removes most of the consequences of a leaking gas cylinder. I was posting mostly as a heads-up for those in less forgiving situations, as when your power goes out.

I realize that propane is a quite convenient fuel source. But have you considered alcohol, or Sterno?

 

[dlgoff]

... and a feed to an external antenna?

Here's the weather radio's vhf antenna (a little hard to see):

Here's the CB radio's antenna:

 

[berkeman]

Here's the weather radio's vhf antenna (a little hard to see):

Love it -- looks like a mag-mount antenna smacked onto a metal AC unit or something?

 

[dlgoff]

Love it -- looks like a mag-mount antenna smacked onto a metal AC unit or something?

Yes, it's a mag mount but is epoxied to the aluminum air intake filter.

 

[berkeman]

Yes, it's a mag mount but is epoxied to the aluminum air intake filter.

LOL, makes sense. Danged aluminum.

I once bought ARRL magnetic signs to put on my Suburban during emergency responses, identifying me as an Emergency Radio Operator. I bought 3 of the magnetic signs, so I could mark my front driver and passenger doors, and my rear lift gate.

When I got them I thought I'd check out how they looked -- I smacked the first 2 on the front doors, and went to smack the 3rd one on the rear lift gate. If fell right off! Turns out the rear lift gate on Suburbans is made out of cursed aluminum to make them easier to lift, I guess. The 3rd sign then became a spare...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

smack the 3rd one on the rear lift gate. If fell right off!

Heh, engineers!

 

[OCR]

 

[Vanadium 50]

Now you gone and messed up the polarization!

 

[dlgoff]

Now you gone and messed up the polarization!

It's Microsoft Paint that messed it up.

 

[Wrichik Basu]

It's Microsoft Paint that messed it up.

Use IrfanView. It's certainly better than MS Paint in many aspects.

 

[dlgoff]

Use IrfanView. It's certainly better than MS Paint in many aspects.

I tried it, but after it associated all my .jpg files to itself, I promptly deleted it and restored my PC from a backup to eliminate all it's tracks.

 

[Tom.G]

Use IrfanView. It's certainly better than MS Paint in many aspects.

I tried it, but after it associated all my .jpg files to itself, I promptly deleted it and restored my PC from a backup to eliminate all it's tracks.

That's configurable. In 'Irfan View' click on:
"Options" -> "Set file associations..." -> "Extensions" to select the ones you want.
As of Version 4.35, dated 2012, it lists 69 supported extensions.

Personally, I've found it quite useful and versatile.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Wrichik Basu]

I tried it, but after it associated all my .jpg files to itself, I promptly deleted it and restored my PC from a backup to eliminate all it's tracks.

Calm down, it's not a virus. Even if it does associate all jpg files to itself, that can be changed without much trouble. In future, you will find that software much more useful than MS Paint.

 

[dlgoff]

That's configurable. In 'Irfan View' click on:
"Options" -> "Set file associations..." -> "Extensions" to select the ones you want.
As of Version 4.35, dated 2012, it lists 69 supported extensions.

Personally, I've found it quite useful and versatile.

Cheers,
Tom

Evidently that doesn't work. I had no file associations boxes checked and it did it anyway.

 

[dlgoff]

Calm down, it's not a virus. Even if it does associate all jpg files to itself, that can be changed without much trouble. In future, you will find that software much more useful than MS Paint.

bold by me
If you want to discuss this, please start a different thread somewhere. This thread is for My Storm Shelter.

 

[Averagesupernova]

This thread is for My Storm Shelter.

And a fine shelter it is.

 

[dlgoff]

And a fine shelter it is.

Thank you sir.

 

[nduka-san]

a nice ending to the story of a storm shelter