News National Interfaith Alliance Lawsuit is TOSSED OUT

[mugaliens]

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/01/29/national-interfaith-alliance-president-hits-air-force-academy-prayer-breakfast-and-fundamentalist-keynote/" tells the story of four USAF Academy faculty members who, along with the National Interfaith Alliance, filed for an injunction against the USAF Academy-hosted National Prayer Breakfast. According to the article, "Of particular concern is the Air Force Academy’s selection of Lt. Clebe McClary to keynote a prayer breakfast that it is hosting."

Well, that's how this fiasco began, along with a rather lengthy and out-to-lunch letter by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_L._Weinstein" (mentioned in the article) appearing in the Colorado Springs Gazette last week. It was countered on the same page by a rather detailed but dead-on historical reminder that after Thomas Jefferson wrote his "separation of church and state" letter to the Danbury Baptist Church, he continued holding worship services in government buildings due to a lack of church buildings in the area.

Weinstein pulled a similar stunt against the USAF Academy back in 2005, and that was dismissed by a U.S. District Court Judge, as well.

The story morphed over the last week, with the four faculty members claiming they felt they would be unfairly viewed and their careers would be in jeopardy if they didn't attend. As a 20-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force, having received many invitations over the years, and having attended half a dozen prayer breakfasts, I can't fathom how or why those faculty members would/could ever come to that conclusion, for two simple reasons:

1. Every invitation I've ever received has made it abundantly clear the event is strictly optional.

2. Although all members on base are invited, few attend. In fact, I'd put the numbers at around 7%, given the base populations and the numbers attending. If the four faculty members' concerns had any validity at all, the 93% who didn't attend would all have put their careers in jeopardy.

Today, a judge threw out the lawsuit citing "lack of evidence."

Yeah!

Some people erroneously think "separation of church and state" automatically translates into government being forbidding from having anything to do with religion at all. Jefferson didn't think so. Our current Congress doesn't think so (each session begins with prayer). The courts don't think so, either, and have consistantly ruled that government facilities may be used to host religious events, provided they do not respect one establishment of religion over another.

It's nice to see when sane minds behind the bench do the right thing.

 

[Evo]

Religion has no place in any area of government that is paid for by taxes, IMO.

If people in military wish to hold prayer breakfasts, it should not be at taxpayers expense.

 

[Lacy33]

religion has no place in any area of government that is paid for by taxes, imo.

If people in military wish to hold prayer breakfasts, it should not be at taxpayers expense.

amen!

 

[mugaliens]

If people in military wish to hold prayer breakfasts, it should not be at taxpayers expense.

So you advocate banning all chapels and chaplains? What if they exist because long ago it was determined that the inclusion of religious activities makes for a more efficient, effective, and well-grounded member of the military, thereby saving as much if not more taxpayer dollars than the chaplaincy costs?

Regardless, the funds for the Prayer Breakfasts come from the passing of the plate at chapel services on Sunday, not from your taxpayer dollars.

 

[Proton Soup]

Spirituality apparently affects soldier fitness.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/13/132904866/armys-spiritual-fitness-test-angers-some-soldiers

"Researchers have found that spiritual people have decreased odds of attempting suicide, and that spiritual fitness has a positive impact on quality of life, on coping and on mental health," says Cornum, who is director of Comprehensive Soldier Fitness.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Religion has no place in any area of government that is paid for by taxes, IMO.

If people in military wish to hold prayer breakfasts, it should not be at taxpayers expense.

The military, and government in general, should provide for the wellbeing of all regardless of gender, race, religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, etc. As religious services are important for the wellbeing of many in the US military, I have no problem with taxpayer money supporting religious services for service people who choose to attend (the same opportunities for funding are available to soldiers of any religion). By the same token, I do have problems with the fact that, even with the repeal of DADT, the partners of homosexual service people would not be afforded the same benefits as the partners of heterosexual service people.

 

[waht]

USA is a highly religious country. And so, church+state is just a natural consequence of majority rule and dominance over a minority like secularists or any other group for that matter, religious or not, it's usually the majority way or the highway.

 

[WhoWee]

Spirituality apparently affects soldier fitness.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/13/132904866/armys-spiritual-fitness-test-angers-some-soldiers

Given the tragic statistics - this is an important discussion.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127860466

"Nearly as many American troops at home and abroad have committed suicide this year as have been killed in combat in Afghanistan. Alarmed at the growing rate of soldiers taking their own lives, the Army has begun investigating its mental health and suicide prevention programs."

 

[WhoWee]

USA is a highly religious country. And so, church+state is just a natural consequence of majority rule and dominance over a minority like secularists or any other group for that matter, religious or not, it's usually the majority way or the highway.

I'm not so sure of that - any support for this comment?

 

[JaredJames]

USA is a highly religious country. And so, church+state is just a natural consequence of majority rule and dominance over a minority like secularists or any other group for that matter, religious or not, it's usually the majority way or the highway.

Doesn't the constitution say something about keeping them separate?

amen!

Seconded.

 

[mugaliens]

Doesn't the constitution say something about keeping them separate?

Nope. Our First Amendment merely prohibits our government from "respecting an establishment of religion." When one goes back and reads the letters of those who wrote, modified, and ratified the First Amendment, it's abundantly clear they simply meant to prohibit the government from giving the nod to ("respecting") one religion ("an establishment of religion") over another.

Please re-read para 2 of the OP.

 

[waht]

I'm not so sure of that - any support for this comment?

While there is no official recognition of some church or temple allowed by the constitution, but rather, since the majority of US population is religious and always has been, most if not all elected politicians are religious. That is fine of course, as long as they keep it to themselves, but unfortunately it's not always the case. The net result is that it's pretty tough going against checks and balances ran by people, who in their private lives, have allegiance to same institution, the church.

The OP is one such example of abuse of power, which I argued is derived exclusively from majority.

Another example is when the president ends his speech by saying "God bless America" or US mint prints "In God we trust" on every dollar, or including 'God' in the pledge.

At first sight, these are innocent little interjections interwoven into the fabric of US government. But at face value they are Trojan Horses used to advance the religious message.

 

[JaredJames]

Nope. Our First Amendment merely prohibits our government from "respecting an establishment of religion." When one goes back and reads the letters of those who wrote, modified, and ratified the First Amendment, it's abundantly clear they simply meant to prohibit the government from giving the nod to ("respecting") one religion ("an establishment of religion") over another.

Please re-read para 2 of the OP.

Yeah just Googled it and saw the wiki on. Interesting stuff.

I still hold that the government shouldn't pay for it.

Am I right in thinking the constitution simply says the government can't prevent you practising, not that they have to supply you the means to?

On this basis, any military personnel should be allowed to practice their religion but I don't see why valuable space on an aircraft carrier (or any government asset) should be dedicated to a religion (I was just watching a documentary from a year or so back on life on board a British Naval Aircraft Carrier and they had quite a substantial prayer room).

Plus the fact the Navy employed a priest on board - now a room I could just about let go seeing as it doesn't really have an associated cost, but a priest? There's an expense we could do without!

 

[Jasongreat]

Doesn't the constitution say something about keeping them separate?

No it doesnt, it says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Which imo says that congress can't forbid one to practice a religion, nor can they force one to practice a religion. The separation part comes from a private letter between Jefferson and the danbury baptists like mugaliens already pointed out in the op.

Edit: sorry aready has been adressed.

 

[WhoWee]

While there is no official recognition of some church or temple allowed by the constitution, but rather, since the majority of US population is religious and always has been, most if not all elected politicians are religious. That is fine of course, as long as they keep it to themselves, but unfortunately it's not always the case. The net result is that it's pretty tough going against checks and balances ran by people, who in their private lives, have allegiance to same institution, the church.

The OP is one such example of abuse of power, which I argued is derived exclusively from majority.

Another example is when the president ends his speech by saying "God bless America" or US mint prints "In God we trust" on every dollar, or including 'God' in the pledge.

At first sight, these are innocent little interjections interwoven into the fabric of US government. But at face value they are Trojan Horses used to advance the religious message.

I'll accept your response to indicate you don't have any direct support for your post then?

 

[Jack21222]

Nope. Our First Amendment merely prohibits our government from "respecting an establishment of religion." When one goes back and reads the letters of those who wrote, modified, and ratified the First Amendment, it's abundantly clear they simply meant to prohibit the government from giving the nod to ("respecting") one religion ("an establishment of religion") over another.

Please re-read para 2 of the OP.

"Respecting" in this case means "about," or "with respect to."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respecting

Anyway, your interpretation of the first amendment is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Here's what the SCOTUS says the establishment clause means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education

"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'" 330 U.S. 1, 15-16.

For the rest of this thread, people should keep the above meaning in mind.

No it doesnt, it says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Which imo says that congress can't forbid one to practice a religion, nor can they force one to practice a religion. The separation part comes from a private letter between Jefferson and the danbury baptists like mugaliens already pointed out in the op.

The above goes for you, too. The separation part comes from the Supreme Court. They argue that the text of the first amendment, which you quoted, has the same meaning as the "wall of separation" mentioned by Jefferson.

 

[JaredJames]

"Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa."

I'm curious, would that apply to the government providing prayer rooms and other such facilities?

 

[turbo]

Last May, soldiers were punished for not attending an evangelical Christian concert on base. They were confined to barracks and were assigned to chores and forbidden to use their cell phones or computers because they chose not to attend the concert.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/us-soldiers-punished-for-_b_687051.html

 

[WhoWee]

Last May, soldiers were punished for not attending an evangelical Christian concert on base. They were confined to barracks and were assigned to chores and forbidden to use their cell phones or computers because they chose not to attend the concert.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/us-soldiers-punished-for-_b_687051.html

Do you think this blogger might be a tad biased?

"Chris RoddaSenior Research Director, Military Religious Freedom Foundation; Author, Liars For Jesus"

Her blog needs support.

 

[turbo]

Apparently, you have been living under a rock somewhere. This was all over the news and although you think the lady is "biased" you might do a little digging on your own.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/19/u-s-soldiers-punished-for-not-attending-christian-concert/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/us/21brfs-SOLDIERSSAID_BRF.html

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently, you have been living under a rock somewhere. This was all over the news and although you think the lady is "biased" you might do a little digging on your own.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/19/u-s-soldiers-punished-for-not-attending-christian-concert/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/us/21brfs-SOLDIERSSAID_BRF.html

Your personal attack aside - perhaps if you posted a real news account I wouldn't have to do a little digging on my own. Your sources look pretty slim. The NY Times article is from August - has nothing else been reported in the past 6 months?

Your support - needs support - IMO.

 

[turbo]

Your personal attack aside - perhaps if you posted a real news account I wouldn't have to do a little digging on my own. Your sources look pretty slim. The NY Times article is from August - has nothing else been reported in the past 6 months?

Your support - needs support - IMO.

It was not a personal attack. This situation was all over the news last summer, and it should not have to be dredged up in detail all over again. I don't suppose the story was covered on FOX or in the Washington Times, but mainstream media carried it, and it engendered letters to the editor and editorial columns regarding the propensity of some of our military's leaders to proselytize for evangelical Christian religions. Why should taxpayer dollars be spent hiring $$$$$$$ Christian groups to "entertain" our troops? Especially, the ones who feel that they are forced to attend the concerts.

Edited to correct the name of the newspaper from the Post to the Times

 

[WhoWee]

It was not a personal attack. This situation was all over the news last summer, and it should not have to be dredged up in detail all over again. I don't suppose the story was covered on FOX or in the Washington Post, but mainstream media carried it, and it engendered letters to the editor and editorial columns regarding the propensity of some of our military's leaders to proselytize for evangelical Christian religions. Why should taxpayer dollars be spent hiring $$$$$$$ Christian groups to "entertain" our troops? Especially, the ones who feel that they are forced to attend the concerts.

Well, if it was "all over the news" and "mainstream media carried it" - you should be able to support your post - shouldn't you?

Btw - first you tell me (I'll assume you meant the living under a rock comment) was not personal - then you make a comment about Fox News and the Washington Post - that sounds personal. If I suggested you frequent Huffington or al jazeera you would be indignant - wouldn't you?

 

[turbo]

Well, if it was "all over the news" and "mainstream media carried it" - you should be able to support your post - shouldn't you?

Btw - first you tell me (I'll assume you meant the living under a rock comment) was not personal - then you make a comment about Fox News and the Washington Post - that sounds personal. If I suggested you frequent Huffington or al jazeera you would be indignant - wouldn't you?

Not a bit. And if you demand detailed support for every single post that offends your sensibilities, you'll end up unsatisfied anyway. BTW, I not only look at Huffington, bur Yahoo and Google News feeds every day, and when their internal links point to sources, I often follow those, too, no matter where they lead.

And yes, this story was covered all over the mainstream media. You can easily dredge up a hundred links to it if you wish. I'm not going to do that for you. IMO, anybody reading this thread has probably already become familiar with this problem in our military. And it IS a problem. Enforcing religious beliefs through a command structure in a crucial part of our society is dangerous. Would you support a general officer who required all of the troops in his command to attend Muslim prayer-services or Buddhist ceremonies?

 

[WhoWee]

Not a bit. And if you demand detailed support for every single post that offends your sensibilities, you'll end up unsatisfied anyway. BTW, I not only look at Huffington, bur Yahoo and Google News feeds every day, and when their internal links point to sources, I often follow those, too, no matter where they lead.

And yes, this story was covered all over the mainstream media. You can easily dredge up a hundred links to it if you wish. I'm not going to do that for you. IMO, anybody reading this thread has probably already become familiar with this problem in our military. And it IS a problem. Enforcing religious beliefs through a command structure in a crucial part of our society is dangerous. Would you support a general officer who required all of the troops in his command to attend Muslim prayer-services or Buddhist ceremonies?

Again turbo - you continue to maintain it was all over the news - it should be VERY easy for you to support your post with a mainstream news report.

 

[turbo]

Again turbo - you continue to maintain it was all over the news - it should be VERY easy for you to support your post with a mainstream news report.

I already did so. Please stop the hectoring and nay-saying. If you wish to come up with stories countering the ones I posted, you are free to do so. Otherwise, I'm done on this thread and you can beat it into the ground, if you like.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Apparently, you have been living under a rock somewhere. This was all over the news and although you think the lady is "biased" you might do a little digging on your own./QUOTE]

Your first link is by the same person. You can't refute the claims that a source is biased by providing another reference from the same source. (That's not a comment about the substance of the argument; I don't care one way or the other)

 

[turbo]

Your first link is by the same person. You can't refute the claims that a source is biased by providing another reference from the same source. (That's not a comment about the substance of the argument; I don't care one way or the other)

Is MSNBC a real news source?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38792399/ns/us_news-life/

How about Army Times?

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/09/MONDAY1army-concert-090610w/

How about the Examiner?

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-...shed-for-not-attending-christian-rock-concert

How about the "News-Lite" USA Today?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-08-21-troops-christian-concert_N.htm

It would have been very difficult to have avoided notice of this story last summer, since it was all over the mainstream media. The idea that taxpayer money is being spent to proselytize for any religion (popular or not) to our soldiers is offensive to me. The government should have no role in that arena. If the military wants to provide chaplains, rabbis, imams, etc for the troops for support and consultation, that's OK by me, but to force troops to attend religious gatherings is 'way over the line.

 

[WhoWee]

Is MSNBC a real news source?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38792399/ns/us_news-life/

From the MSNBC link:(my bold) "At the Pentagon, Army spokesman Col. Thomas Collins said the military shouldn't impose religious views on soldiers.

"If something like that were to have happened, it would be contrary to Army policy," Collins said."

The rest of the story is the same as the other account?

"The Military Religious Freedom Foundation first reported on the Christian concert. The foundation said it was approached by soldiers who were punished for not attending or offended by the religious theme of the event.

The group's president, Mikey Weinstein, claims Christian-themed events are "ubiquitous" throughout the military, and he credited the soldiers for stepping forward.

"Whenever we see this egregious, unconstitutional religious tyranny our job is to fight it," he said."

 

[Evo]

From the MSNBC link:(my bold) "At the Pentagon, Army spokesman Col. Thomas Collins said the military shouldn't impose religious views on soldiers.

"If something like that were to have happened, it would be contrary to Army policy," Collins said."

The rest of the story is the same as the other account?

"The Military Religious Freedom Foundation first reported on the Christian concert. The foundation said it was approached by soldiers who were punished for not attending or offended by the religious theme of the event.

The group's president, Mikey Weinstein, claims Christian-themed events are "ubiquitous" throughout the military, and he credited the soldiers for stepping forward.

"Whenever we see this egregious, unconstitutional religious tyranny our job is to fight it," he said."

WhoWee, you asked turbo to post a mainstream news source and he did.

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee, you asked turbo to post a mainstream news source and he did.

The Pentagon spokesperson in his source said "If something like that were to have happened, it would be contrary to Army policy," Collins said."

That's not exactly support and validation of the story - is it?

 

[Evo]

The Pentagon spokesperson in his source said "If something like that were to have happened, it would be contrary to Army policy," Collins said."

That's not exactly support and validation of the story - is it?

Did you miss the link to this in turbo's original article?

At Fort Eustis, he promoted a series of concerts, featuring christian performers, aimed at awakening Soldier's sprititual awareness.

This is in www.army.mil[/URL]

[URL]http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/07/09/10753-fort-lee-commanding-general-reaches-out-to-soldiers/[/URL]

 

[WhoWee]

Did you miss the link to this in turbo's original article?


This is in www.army.mil[/URL]

[URL]http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/07/09/10753-fort-lee-commanding-general-reaches-out-to-soldiers/[/URL][/QUOTE]

I'm not questioning the concerts. This is his first post:(my bold)
[I]"Last May, [B]soldiers were punished for not attending an evangelical Christian concert on base. They were confined to barracks and were assigned to chores and forbidden to use their cell phones or computers because they chose not to attend the concert[/B].

[PLAIN]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-..._b_687051.html "[/I]

I still don't see a mainstream news report that validates this story - do you?

 

[turbo]

Thanks, Evo. My sister and I discussed this situation at length last summer. Her son is a lifer in the Navy, and though she is a Christian, she brought him up to make his own choices and she respects those choices.

My nephew has worked his way through the ranks from a grunt to Warrant Officer (specialty in propulsion) and has had to deal with sometimes not-so-subtle pressures to conform in areas of faith. He was sailor of the year so many times at so many levels from individual ships up to entire carrier groups that you would think such coercion wouldn't be a problem. It was. There is no need to subject our military personnel to such pressures. They already have enough to worry about, with long deployments, extended separations from family and friends, etc.

 

[mugaliens]

For the rest of this thread, people should keep the above meaning in mind.

Your "above meaning" is rubbish, and is contrary to the writings of both Jefferson and the other founding fathers. It's revisionist history at it's worst. Do not forget it was Jefferson who, both before and after writing the letter to the Danbury Baptists, hosted church services in federal buildings. If he believed even a

The separation part comes from the Supreme Court. They argue that the text of the first amendment, which you quoted, has the same meaning as the "wall of separation" mentioned by Jefferson.

You are correct in that it came from the Supreme Court. Ordinarily, no private letter, even one written by a President, has the authority to become a key cornerstone of federal law. Madison, in fact, vetoed two bills submitted to him by Congress as he felt the bills violated the First Amendment. It was the Supreme Court of the United State who misappropriated Jefferson's private letter, thereby creating a precedent in case law which has yet to be successfully contested by Congress. Many have critized SCOTUS for doing what they did, as they essentially overstepped the bounds of their authority and stepped into Congress' neck of the woods. Many Congressional experts contend that Congress would never have enacted legislation on the order of the SCOTUS interpretation of Jefferson's letter.

 

[BobG]

Yeah just Googled it and saw the wiki on. Interesting stuff.

I still hold that the government shouldn't pay for it.

Am I right in thinking the constitution simply says the government can't prevent you practising, not that they have to supply you the means to?

On this basis, any military personnel should be allowed to practice their religion but I don't see why valuable space on an aircraft carrier (or any government asset) should be dedicated to a religion (I was just watching a documentary from a year or so back on life on board a British Naval Aircraft Carrier and they had quite a substantial prayer room).

Plus the fact the Navy employed a priest on board - now a room I could just about let go seeing as it doesn't really have an associated cost, but a priest? There's an expense we could do without!

Should valuable space on an aircraft carrier be dedicated to a pool table? Or a gym? Or a library?

Likewise, should a prison provide religious and recreation facilities for its members? At least partially relevant since failure to provide facilities for off-duty activities is going to result in the military having to transition from an all volunteer force to an all forced labor force.

Especially on an aircraft carrier, the crew's entire world is reduced to the military facilities. I think providing religious facilities is just part of the overhead of having to provide for people's needs.

 

[zomgwtf]

Should valuable space on an aircraft carrier be dedicated to a pool table? Or a gym? Or a library?

Likewise, should a prison provide religious and recreation facilities for its members? At least partially relevant since failure to provide facilities for off-duty activities is going to result in the military having to transition from an all volunteer force to an all forced labor force.

Especially on an aircraft carrier, the crew's entire world is reduced to the military facilities. I think providing religious facilities is just part of the overhead of having to provide for people's needs.

I agree with this fully. The only problem is however, are all religions/non-religions treated equally? That's what is important in my mind with regard to separation of church and state.

 

[Jack21222]

Your "above meaning" is rubbish, and is contrary to the writings of both Jefferson and the other founding fathers. It's revisionist history at it's worst.

Then take it up with the supreme count. The SCOTUS interpretation is the only one that matters in this case. The lawsuit should not have been thrown out based on current case law.

If this were a philosophical argument about what the 1st amendment should be, I'd be willing to listen, but this is about a real-life case that was wrongly dismissed.

 

[JaredJames]

Should valuable space on an aircraft carrier be dedicated to a pool table? Or a gym? Or a library?

Likewise, should a prison provide religious and recreation facilities for its members? At least partially relevant since failure to provide facilities for off-duty activities is going to result in the military having to transition from an all volunteer force to an all forced labor force.

Especially on an aircraft carrier, the crew's entire world is reduced to the military facilities. I think providing religious facilities is just part of the overhead of having to provide for people's needs.

I agree with this fully. The only problem is however, are all religions/non-religions treated equally? That's what is important in my mind with regard to separation of church and state.

As I questioned early, to which I didn't receive a response, someone quoted somewhere regarding the government not being allowed to fund religion (or something along those lines) and I asked whether this applies to the government paying for a 'church' and more importantly, a priest to be on board the aircraft carriers and other military areas.

Like I said back there, I can understand a room. I may not accept it, but given it doesn't really cost to have it I can let it go. But, I can't understand the justification for a priest - where do we draw the line? Are we intolerant of all other religions and say only priests, no other religious officials? Or do we pay to have one of every religious denomination on board? It's ridiculous.

The government can't stop you practising, but they don't have to and shouldn't fund you to do so - in this case by paying a priest to stick around.

At what point do we bring up atheists? Where do they come into the equation? Do they get to 'elect' a person to be on board and act for them, in the same manner as a priest for the religious contingent?

In regard to prisons, my personal view is that they should be put in a cell for the duration of their sentence with an hour of exercise each day (or something along those lines). You break the law, you're not on holiday. The tax payer should not be paying for anything more than they need - I don't accept all this "violation of human rights" tripe.

 

[WhoWee]

I agree with this fully. The only problem is however, are all religions/non-religions treated equally? That's what is important in my mind with regard to separation of church and state.

Why would you ned to provide a place to worship to a non-religious person? I look at this differently - the space is to separate the religion (place a wall) between the worshipper and everyone else.

 

[Gokul43201]

Your sources look pretty slim. The NY Times article is from August - has nothing else been reported in the past 6 months?

Your support - needs support - IMO.

Are you kidding with this? Turbo produced a mainstream news article to support his claim (and a second article, from what looks like a pretty reliable source). Demanding that he produce one article for every month of the year is ludicrous!

 

[WhoWee]

Are you kidding with this? Turbo produced a mainstream news article from the AP to support his claim. Demanding that he produce one article for every month of the year is ludicrous!

When did I demand he produce one article for every month of the year? Please support your statement.

 

[WhoWee]

Originally Posted by Gokul43201 "When did I say you did? Please support your statement."


In Post 41

"Demanding that he produce one article for every month of the year is ludicrous!"

 

[Gokul43201]

That sentence makes no mention of you.

Two can play this game, but I have no appetite to continue it, or to keep feeding trolls.

 

[WhoWee]

That sentence makes no mention of you.

Two can play this game, but I have no appetite to continue it, or to keep feeding trolls.

Post 41 in it's entirety:
"Originally Posted by WhoWee
Your sources look pretty slim. The NY Times article is from August - has nothing else been reported in the past 6 months?

Your support - needs support - IMO.

Are you kidding with this? Turbo produced a mainstream news article to support his claim (and a second article, from what looks like a pretty reliable source). Demanding that he produce one article for every month of the year is ludicrous!
__________________

"

 

[Pattonias]

As a member of the military, I can say from experience that to say that a chapel is dedicated to a particular religion is somewhat of a misnomer. The chaplains in the US Army are required to administer spiritual and counseling services to all US Military personnel regardless of religion. At my basic training course there were services every Sunday for every religion that requested one. In the morning there was a Catholic mass followed by a Protestant service. Both were held in the sports complex due to the large number attending. They were both handled by the same chaplain. On the same morning in the traditional chapel on base there was a Islamic service held. After lunch their was a Wiccan service held in the same chapel that was administered by a priestess from off post. All of this was coordinated by the same post chaplain.

If you chose not to attend you could remain in the barracks and sleep, read, clean, whatever. We could not use phones or computers because we were not allowed to use them at any other point in our training either. And to say that was punishment would be misleading because those at the services were not allowed to use them either.

It was made clear to us that we could talk to the chaplain at any time we requested it. You could tell him anything you wanted and it would be held confidential between you and him. The chaplain was also the means by which you could complain about your treatment outside of your chain of command if you felt that something was wrong. The chaplain was expected to handle your problem confidentially and carry your issues to the proper authorities.

I can't speak for those on those in this other situation because I don't know if they were normally allowed to use these things and they were not allowed to use them while everyone else was out.

 

[BobG]

But, I can't understand the justification for a priest - where do we draw the line? Are we intolerant of all other religions and say only priests, no other religious officials? Or do we pay to have one of every religious denomination on board? It's ridiculous.

No. Obviously, being a military chaplain is going to be a little different than being a civilian preist/minister since resources limit how many chaplains are going to be available on military missions. The best the military could do would be to make sure the distribution of faiths among its chaplains reflects the distribution of faiths among the troops, thereby at least creating the best odds of meeting needs.

To be honest, the US military doesn't do that good a job of that. From http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artGeneral.article_6 (down towards the bottom of the page), the Army has about 99,000 Catholics and about 94,000 Baptists, yet the Army has 368 Baptist ministers and only 101 Catholic preists. That might be something unique to the Army environment. The Air Force has similar disparities, but not nearly so dramatic. The reality is that while the military may desire a chaplain force that mirrors its troops, chaplains of some religions are easier to obtain than others.

Part of that can be influenced by how aggressive a particular religion is in obtaining new members - troops serving in combat can develop religious faith fairly quickly and makes a fertile environment to obtain new converts. I think Proton Soup mentioned religion being something that promotes mental health in stressful situations and he has a valid point. Whether involved in combat or just lost in the wilderness, people with strong religious faith tend to have better survival rates than others. Not that something else couldn't substitute - people very committed to getting back to their families have better survival rates, as well - but anything that gives a person extra fortitude in stressful situations tends to help them survive.

And, just for the heck of it, Army regulations regarding chaplains that address the Army's view of the First Amendment and how the chaplain program fits into that (starting at paragraph 1-5): http://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/pdf/R165_1.PDF

One of the things I found most absurd about the controversy over a Muslim Community Center so close to the site of a terrorist attack conducted by Islamic terrorists (World Trade Center) is that the Pentagon conducts Muslim services right in the Pentagon - a site of the same overall attack. The same chapel in the Pentagon is used by all faiths, including Muslims.

 

[BobG]

The Pentagon spokesperson in his source said "If something like that were to have happened, it would be contrary to Army policy," Collins said."

That's not exactly support and validation of the story - is it?

You don't clearly state the significance of that statement in any of your posts, which might be why you're getting such a negative response.

There is a problem with the articles. They cite an allegation that's being investigated. The results of the investigation have never been reported as far as I can find.

That's significant because it's hard to tell which actions levied upon the personnel skipping the concert were punishment and which were normal Advanced Individual Training school procedures (AIT isn't as restrictive as Basic training, but it is a lot more restrictive than normal military life). The marching part would definitely be standard practice - they march everywhere they go. What they were allowed to do in the barracks while the concert was going on might be iffy, but I certainly couldn't say for sure.

There's a good chance of there being problems with MajGen Chalmer's programs in the first place. You would think he would have told his staff what he wanted and they would find a way to come pretty close to achieving what he wanted legally, but generals can be an arrogant bunch sometimes and the concert series certainly look very iffy. The fact that all of the performers were from one religion isn't necessarily ironclad evidence in itself. It's also possible that was the only group that had performers available and/or willing to participate in the series.

But, still, the bottom line is an allegation, followed up by an investigation whose results aren't known. That's a little frustrating.

 

[WhoWee]

You don't clearly state the significance of that statement in any of your posts, which might be why you're getting such a negative response.

There is a problem with the articles. They cite an allegation that's being investigated. The results of the investigation have never been reported as far as I can find.

That's significant because it's hard to tell which actions levied upon the personnel skipping the concert were punishment and which were normal Advanced Individual Training school procedures (AIT isn't as restrictive as Basic training, but it is a lot more restrictive than normal military life). The marching part would definitely be standard practice - they march everywhere they go. What they were allowed to do in the barracks while the concert was going on might be iffy, but I certainly couldn't say for sure.

There's a good chance of there being problems with MajGen Chalmer's programs in the first place. You would think he would have told his staff what he wanted and they would find a way to come pretty close to achieving what he wanted legally, but generals can be an arrogant bunch sometimes and the concert series certainly look very iffy. The fact that all of the performers were from one religion isn't necessarily ironclad evidence in itself. It's also possible that was the only group that had performers available and/or willing to participate in the series.

But, still, the bottom line is an allegation, followed up by an investigation whose results aren't known. That's a little frustrating.

I think you've grasped the significance. The Pentagon said "IF" - and the story seems to have ended? That's why I questioned if there were any follow up stories beyond repeats of the original statement.

 

[nismaratwork]

Religion has no place in any area of government that is paid for by taxes, IMO.

If people in military wish to hold prayer breakfasts, it should not be at taxpayers expense.

I'm sorry mug, but I agree with this 100%. I know it's unpopular, but nonetheless, it's what I believe. To me, the history of any involvement of religion and state has no positive outcome in the long run.

From a political perspective, Kemalism is an anti-clerical secularism which abolished the religious political establishment of the Ottoman Empire. In the Kemalist political perspective politicians cannot claim to be the protector of any religion or religious sect, and such claims constitute sufficient legal grounds for the permanent banning of political parties. The current Prime Minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, while mayor of Istanbul, was once jailed for reciting poetry laced with aggressively religious terms, which was deemed by the judiciary to advocate separatism among the Turkish people, into camps of "believers" and "non-believers".

Bolding is mine. I find that last to be a very important concept at its most basic level, and it's one that a prayer breakfast which our MILITARY and politicians patronize is just that.

There is another side to this supposed "Freedom" that you get when you mix religion and government... that is this strict Kemalist approach to denature the situation. I think the USA is already in enough "armed camps" as it is, don't you?

...Controversially, the constitutional concept of laïcité is also used to justify a ban on Muslim women wearing Islamic coverings such as headscarfs in public universities and other public buildings. Joost Lagendijk, a member of the European Parliament and chair of the Joint Parliamentary Committee with Turkey, has publicly criticized these clothing restrictions for Muslim women;[3] whereas the European Court of Human Rights ruled in numerous cases that such restrictions in public buildings and educational institutions do not constitute a violation of human rights.[4][5]

Is that good? I think that as long as religion is inextricably tied to functional "values" that show up in politics, we're going down the wrong path. Freedom exists when nobody has the advantage, but right now religion has become this nearly meaningless bludgeon for all sides. Remove it from the debate, and put it back in temples, churches, mosques, etc... and homes. Being raised a particular way, attending any service you want, reading what you want, and expressing that legally (pretty broad terms in the USA) isn't enough? I call 'pfft on that.

Source for above quotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism