Neutrinos back into the picture?

[chroot]

there are neutrinos revolving around galaxies because the neutrinos are making this energy field..

Riiiiiiiight. This is clearly science fiction. What's next? Aliens in spandex and tractor beams?

i'm trying to explain it as best as i can...

Seeing as you're making it all up on the spot, I guess I can't blame you for your incoherency. No wonder you don't see physicists doing shows at the Improv.

i'm saying since there are neutrinos keeping galaxies together, then maybe neutrinos are keeping the solar system together also...

You've never given any evidence of the premise, so how can you draw any conclusions? Perhaps you don't understand your sources. It is possible that some kind of exotic matter -- neutrinos or other weakly-interacting species -- comprise a lot of the mass of a galaxy. No one is quite sure yet why, but it seems galaxies have more mass than their light implies. The scientists who are considering neutrinos as a reasonably large fraction of a galaxies mass are not supporting the idea that neutrinos are in any way related to the mechanism of gravitation. They are simply considering that their aggregate mass might be substantial.

these neutrinos circle galaxies and solar systems at near light speeds because that's how they clumped together when the galaxies and solar systems were first created... they are keeping everything in order.

As I've said, it would take an enormous force to keep an neutrino orbiting a galaxy at nearly light speed. Why don't you try your hand at basic mechanics and calculate what force would be required? What do you suppose provides this force, since gravity no longer exists in your theory?

Before we go any further, I want you to answer this question: why are you inventing any of this neutrino-orbiting halo crap anyway? These neutrinos never hit the earth, so they can't affect gravity there. Why are you even discussing them?

And please don't provide links to other crackpots who say other similarly stupid things. How does this help your credibility? One day you'll be just like them, if you aren't already, and you'll have your very own link on crank.net.

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

so u're saying that neutrinos DON'T orbit galaxies? uhhhh that's stupid. everyone knows that's where all the missing mass is. and it has to deal with energy warren, not really force.

These neutrinos never hit the earth, so they can't affect gravity there

god... i have explained this before... ENERGY FIELDS, warren! ... maybe stupid can go more indepth on this one...

Seeing as you're making it all up on the spot, I guess I can't blame you for your incoherency. No wonder you don't see physicists doing shows at the Improv.

i should have been more clear. I'm trying to explain this to the point where ur space-time mind can understand...

Aliens in spandex and tractor beams?

keep ur sci fi fantasy outta this, warren. I'm trying to be serious..

 

[Alkatran]

so u're saying that neutrinos DON'T orbit galaxies? uhhhh that's stupid. everyone knows that's where all the missing mass is. and it has to deal with energy warren, not really force.


god... i have explained this before... ENERGY FIELDS, warren! ... maybe stupid can go more indepth on this one...



i should have been more clear. I'm trying to explain this to the point where ur space-time mind can understand...



keep ur sci fi fantasy outta this, warren. I'm trying to be serious..

I have to admit, I laughed at "ENERGY FIELDS, warren!"

Please explain how these energy fields work? Somewhat similar to the way electric fields work? Except with mass/neutrinos instead?

 

[chroot]

so u're saying that neutrinos DON'T orbit galaxies? uhhhh that's stupid. everyone knows that's where all the missing mass is. and it has to deal with energy warren, not really force.

If they do orbit galaxies, they can't orbit at nearly the speed of light. And if they orbit at any speed, they do so because of gravity. Since you claim that neutrinos themselves create gravity by hitting objects, then how are these neutrinos themselves in orbit? What neutrinos are hitting them?

god... i have explained this before... ENERGY FIELDS, warren! ... maybe stupid can go more indepth on this one...

The phrase 'ENERGY FIELDS,' even when set in capital letters, is not an explanation. It's a phrase devoid of meaning. What is an energy field? Where do energy fields occur? How can I make my own energy field in a laboratory? What do energy fields do to matter? What do energy fields do to each other?

keep ur sci fi fantasy outta this, warren. I'm trying to be serious..

Like it or not, your crap-fountain of a thread here is science fiction.

And stop trying to dodge my question:

Before we go any further, I want you to answer this question: why are you inventing any of this neutrino-orbiting halo crap anyway? These neutrinos never hit the earth, so they can't affect gravity there. Why are you even discussing them?

- Warren

 

[urtalkinstupid]

Wow, busy week. I haven't been able to get on as much as I wanted. So, I'm trying to catch up.

Alkatran, in your scenario with the tree and stuff, could you possibly include dnesity as a rate of emission and absorption of neutrinos to make it more realistic to the theory? That would help out a lot.

Pulling has no opposite force. You grab a doorknob and pull on it. It grabs you and pulls on you back? You push the doorknob. That propogates a force through the doorknob that pushes you back.

If neutrinos don't interact with the the electromagnetic forces, explain how they detect them? They interact by collision. This collision with an electron promotes decay. Through this decay a blue light cone is emitted. This is how neutrinos are detected, through interaction with electrons.

ArmoSkater87, positrons are what are theorized to make up part of the proton. When a collision occurs, this positron breaks off the proton and becomes the anti-particle to the electron.

Entropy, we all know that you think space-time curvature is gravity. So, you just think gravity is a geometric effect? Wouldn't space-time curvature throw out gravity as one of the fundamental forces? As you said previously, "space-time curvature isn't a force." So, there are only three fundamental forces?

Brad Ad23, "gravitational" lensing can be explained int he push theory. Take a beam of light, it is approaching a dense object. This dense object absorbs neutrinos, allowing less to pass through. The beam of light is over the dense object. It is being hit by more neutrinos on the top than bottom. This cause the light beam to bend at an angle.

And indeed, if there were neutrinos pushing you from every direction at once, there'd be no gravity at all -- the net force would be zero.

- Warren

Wrong.

Neutrinos are all over. Since they travel at relativistic speeds, they interact with us constantly. If they pass through the earth, they do not cancel the affect of the sun. The neutrinos that pass through are outnumbered by the ones from the sun. The sun merely overpowers the nuetrinos that pass through. Net force is positive. Weigh is simply a term associated with the pull theory of gravity. The push theory does not regard weight. Neutrino direction is uniform until they go through emission and absorption. This alters the direction of the neutrino flow.

What we can't figure out, beatrix, is how all the other planets and stars know to push us one direction into the Earth at noon (away from the sun), and then to instead push us the other way at midnight (toward the sun). Six months later, the situation is reversed, though, and all the other planets and stars would have to somehow switch gears and send their neutrinos the other way.

How do you respond?

- Warren

They don't "know" when to push in one direction. The push in all directions. Emission and absorption is what makes a difference in the forces of neutrinos interacting. So, density is an ultimate factor determining emission and absorption. I've recently found a site that explains orbit through neutrinos interaction. Although, it is limited to the Earth moon system of orbiting. I'll be happy to give you the site, if you want it.

Dark matter is simply a pushing force. Neutrinos are what make up hot dark matter as beatrix kiddo said.

They say that almost all forces over distance are proportional to the inverse of distance squared because they have to expand on the surface of a sphere.

Let's put emphais on ALMOST. Not ALL forces over a distance are proportional to the inverse of distance squared. Neutrinos do not have to expand on the surface of a sphere. Light does, neutrinos don't.


errrr...galaxies being held together

Neutrinos are said to interact through weak forces. What says that they can't interact with each other? Are they able to absorb each other energy, increasing their size? Oscillate as a consequence of this absorption?

As for the response on how neutrinos would account for opposite space-time curvature. Think of a hyperbola. This would account for opposite space-time curvature. Everything is pushed towards the center still. Pull allows everything to fall towards the center. It's the same thing except opposite.

I'm tired of saying stuff...I'll try to get on later and explain more.

 

[Alkatran]

Wow, busy week. I haven't been able to get on as much as I wanted. So, I'm trying to catch up.

Alkatran, in your scenario with the tree and stuff, could you possibly include dnesity as a rate of emission and absorption of neutrinos to make it more realistic to the theory? That would help out a lot.

The more matter it passes through, the more is absorbed. Instead of saying that the density was 5kg/m^3 and that there was one cubic meter I just said they had to pass through a Kg of mass.

Pulling has no opposite force. You grab a doorknob and pull on it. It grabs you and pulls on you back? You push the doorknob. That propogates a force through the doorknob that pushes you back.

Push and Pull are terms of convenience. There is only force and direction in this context.

Entropy, we all know that you think space-time curvature is gravity. So, you just think gravity is a geometric effect? Wouldn't space-time curvature throw out gravity as one of the fundamental forces? As you said previously, "space-time curvature isn't a force." So, there are only three fundamental forces?

GR doesn't combine with quantum physics for good reasons.

Brad Ad23, "gravitational" lensing can be explained int he push theory. Take a beam of light, it is approaching a dense object. This dense object absorbs neutrinos, allowing less to pass through. The beam of light is over the dense object. It is being hit by more neutrinos on the top than bottom. This cause the light beam to bend at an angle.

I thought the sun emitted neutrinos, which is why we weren't falling into it and being pushed upwards? Wouldn't this cancel out your inward push?

Neutrinos are all over. Since they travel at relativistic speeds, they interact with us constantly. If they pass through the earth, they do not cancel the affect of the sun. The neutrinos that pass through are outnumbered by the ones from the sun. The sun merely overpowers the nuetrinos that pass through. Net force is positive. Weigh is simply a term associated with the pull theory of gravity. The push theory does not regard weight. Neutrino direction is uniform until they go through emission and absorption. This alters the direction of the neutrino flow.

That's great. But it doesn't explain why there's a balance of forces for all the orbiting planets OR why the moon is orbiting earth.

They don't "know" when to push in one direction. The push in all directions. Emission and absorption is what makes a difference in the forces of neutrinos interacting. So, density is an ultimate factor determining emission and absorption. I've recently found a site that explains orbit through neutrinos interaction. Although, it is limited to the Earth moon system of orbiting. I'll be happy to give you the site, if you want it.

The reason it's limited the the earth-moon system is that if you start putting other planets in the whole thing breaks down.

Dark matter is simply a pushing force. Neutrinos are what make up hot dark matter as beatrix kiddo said.

Pushing how? The same way gravity pulls?

Let's put emphais on ALMOST. Not ALL forces over a distance are proportional to the inverse of distance squared. Neutrinos do not have to expand on the surface of a sphere. Light does, neutrinos don't.

What are you talking about?? The further you are from the sun the less neutrinos you're going to get. If the sun emits 5 trillion neutrinos from it's center in random directions (so it's evenly spaced out) these 5 trillion neutrinos can't cover 500 square kilometers as densely as they can cover 100 square kilometers. They spread out! If there's the same force at 5 meters as there is at 2 meters, that means the neutrinos are multiplying as they go.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i did answer ur question chroot. i never made up the neutrino-halo thing. it says it right there in that source i gave u. I'm not avoiding anything u have to say. neutrinos never hit the earth? what the.. oh i guess u mean the neutrinos around the ss. they DO affect the Earth by keeping it in the ss. weird. if they are keeping the galaxy together, they're keeping the ss together.. a child could grasp this concept..

Like it or not, your crap-fountain of a thread here is science fiction

hahahahahahahaha... like it or not, WARREN, this is theory development. what i think has to be taken seriously because this theory is making ur theories look like crap...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

alkatran, what are u talking about?? they multiply as they go out? but then u say the farther from the sun u are, the less neutrinos there are.. please clean this up..

 

[Alkatran]

i did answer ur question chroot. i never made up the neutrino-halo thing. it says it right there in that source i gave u. I'm not avoiding anything u have to say. neutrinos never hit the earth? what the.. oh i guess u mean the neutrinos around the ss. they DO affect the Earth by keeping it in the ss. weird. if they are keeping the galaxy together, they're keeping the ss together.. a child could grasp this concept..



hahahahahahahaha... like it or not, WARREN, this is theory development. what i think has to be taken seriously because this theory is making ur theories look like crap...

But to do that they need to come in contact with us. If they're around the solar system and we're inside... well how are they coming in contact? Flying in, flying back out, maybe doing a few loop-de-loops in between?

 

[Alkatran]

alkatran, what are u talking about?? they multiply as they go out? but then u say the farther from the sun u are, the less neutrinos there are.. please clean this up..

My point was that IF the force is the same at any distance from the sun, the only solution is that the number of neutrinos magicly increased.

I was pointing out someone else's error.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

yes.. the loop-de-loops i like. geez
ok, i say they are exerting a push around the ss, keeping everything nice and safe, just like around a galaxy. why is this so hard to understand??

 

[Alkatran]

yes.. the loop-de-loops i like. geez
ok, i say they are exerting a push around the ss, keeping everything nice and safe, just like around a galaxy. why is this so hard to understand??

Are you going to stop avoiding the question and just tell us how they affect us without coming in contact? Your own theory says they can't push from all the way over there.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

The more matter it passes through, the more is absorbed.

Wrong. If it passes through something that is small in density, it is likely not to absorb at all. Take the air for instance. Oxygen does not absorb neutrinos, though oxygen is abundant on the earth. Water doesn't absorb neutrinos at a great amount. It's density is one; it's not a tight enough space for absorption. If neutrinos interact with each other, then it would be plausible to say that water can absorb neutrinos.

Yes, I know push and pull are terms of convience. Vector forces are the draw out forces used to determine affects.

Yes, GR and QFT have a lot of problems.

No, forces are NOT canceled out for the last time. The net force is positive. The neutrinos that pass through are simply less in number allowing the incoming neutrinos to out number and over power the passing through neutrinos.

It is only limited to the earth-moon system, because this guy read that scientists preferred a push model when dealing with this system. He did not attempt to add the other planets and their affect.

Pushing through emission and absorption. Not the same way gravity pulls. Gravity doesn't pull it actually accelerates (there thrown out the term of convience). How does it accelrate? Let's make a relation between pull gravity and emission and absorption. A meteror is nearing earth. Earth pulls the meteror towards earth. How? The Earth is absorbing the energy that the meteror emits. the energy that the meteror emits ont he side that is not beign absorbs allow the meteror to apply a vector force that accelerates it towards earth. Does that sound good as an eliminance of terms of convience?

How long does it take for light to lose intensity from galaxies that are billions of miles away?

 

[chroot]

If neutrinos don't interact with the the electromagnetic forces, explain how they detect them? They interact by collision. This collision with an electron promotes decay. Through this decay a blue light cone is emitted. This is how neutrinos are detected, through interaction with electrons.

Neutrinos interact only via the weak force. They are not electrically charged, and thus cannot participate in electromagnetic interactions. They are detected in heavy-water experiments by their interaction with neutrons. Taken from the SNO experiment's website at http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/sno/sno2.html:

As the neutrino approaches the deuterium nucleus a heavy charged particle of the weak force (called the W boson) is exchanged. This changes the neutron in deuterium to a proton, and the neutrino to an electron. The electron, according to mechanics, will get most of the neutrino energy since it has the smaller mass (just as when a gun is fired, the bullet, being lighter, gets most of the energy). Due to the large energy of the incident neutrinos, the electron will be so energetic that it will be ejected at light speed, which is actually faster than the speed of light in water. This causes the optical equivalent of a "sonic boom", where a "shock wave of light" is emitted as the electron slows down. This light flash, called Cherenkov radiation, is detected by the photomultiplier tubes (PMTs); the amount of light is proportional to the incident neutrino energy.

I will again note that collisions, in the microscopic sense, involve force interactions. If a particle, like the neutrino, only couples to the weak force, then the only collisions it can participate in involve the weak force.
There is no such thing as "touching," or "contact" in the microscopic realm.

ArmoSkater87, positrons are what are theorized to make up part of the proton. When a collision occurs, this positron breaks off the proton and becomes the anti-particle to the electron.

Once again, this is false. How many times do we need to correct you? Positrons are absolutely not involved inside protons in any way at all.

Entropy, we all know that you think space-time curvature is gravity. So, you just think gravity is a geometric effect? Wouldn't space-time curvature throw out gravity as one of the fundamental forces? As you said previously, "space-time curvature isn't a force." So, there are only three fundamental forces?

Indeed, that is the state of things at the moment. There is the standard model, which is an excellent model of electromagnetism and the strong and weak forces. Gravity is the odd-ball. It does not behave as a gauge theory (at least not in an obvious way) as do the other three. Physicists are working on different ways of unifying gravity with the other three forces, but no one knows is that will ever happen. It is possible that gravity will always be regarded as fundamentally different than the other three forces.

Brad Ad23, "gravitational" lensing can be explained int he push theory. Take a beam of light, it is approaching a dense object. This dense object absorbs neutrinos, allowing less to pass through. The beam of light is over the dense object. It is being hit by more neutrinos on the top than bottom. This cause the light beam to bend at an angle.

Neutrinos do not interact with photons, because neutrinos are not electrically charged. Your theory of neutrinos cannot explain the gravitational deflection of light, period.

Neutrinos are all over. Since they travel at relativistic speeds, they interact with us constantly. If they pass through the earth, they do not cancel the affect of the sun. The neutrinos that pass through are outnumbered by the ones from the sun. The sun merely overpowers the nuetrinos that pass through. Net force is positive. Weigh is simply a term associated with the pull theory of gravity. The push theory does not regard weight. Neutrino direction is uniform until they go through emission and absorption. This alters the direction of the neutrino flow.

Since the neutrinos from the sun outnumber the neutrinos from every other source, the necessary conclusion is that the Sun's neutrinos would push you into the Earth during the daytime, and push you off it at night. Since this doesn't match observations, it must be wrong.

They don't "know" when to push in one direction. The push in all directions.

You just said they did not. You said the vast majority of them come from the Sun, which indicates that the vast majority of the force is in the direction of the Sun. Since my bathroom scale indicates I weigh the same both at night and during the daytime, it would indicate that somehow the entire universe is conspiring to fire its neutrinos at me at just the right times.

You're also missing a huge part of this problem: if the vast majority of the neutrinos are from the Sun, then the force on both my body and the Earth as a whole is equal. Rather than my body being pushed into the Earth, both my body and the Earth would be equally pushed away from the Sun. As a result, we would all be weightless.

Emission and absorption is what makes a difference in the forces of neutrinos interacting. So, density is an ultimate factor determining emission and absorption. I've recently found a site that explains orbit through neutrinos interaction. Although, it is limited to the Earth moon system of orbiting. I'll be happy to give you the site, if you want it.

The density of Mercury is close to the density of iron. The density of Saturn, however, is lower than that of water. They both orbit the same star in essentially perfectly concentric orbits. How do you explain this?

Dark matter is simply a pushing force. Neutrinos are what make up hot dark matter as beatrix kiddo said.

We'll probably not take your word for it.

Let's put emphais on ALMOST. Not ALL forces over a distance are proportional to the inverse of distance squared. Neutrinos do not have to expand on the surface of a sphere. Light does, neutrinos don't.

Neutrinos are particles, yes? So if the Sun makes, say, 10¹⁰ of them per second, and they spread out in every direction uniformly from the Sun, there are 10¹⁰ of them in contained in every 300,000 km thick concentric shell around the Sun, yes? The volume of these shells increases as the square of its radius. Thus, there must be fewer neutrinos per unit volume as you move away from the Sun. Are you proposing some novel new mechanism that would allow neutrinos to avoid this obvious problem?

Neutrinos are said to interact through weak forces. What says that they can't interact with each other? Are they able to absorb each other energy, increasing their size? Oscillate as a consequence of this absorption?

They can interact with each other, but the cross-section for such an interaction is so low that it's neglible. They cannot absorb energy, because they are not composite particles and have no internal modes in which to store that energy. The only energy they can have is kinetic energy. They do not increase in size, and they do not "oscillate."

As for the response on how neutrinos would account for opposite space-time curvature. Think of a hyperbola. This would account for opposite space-time curvature. Everything is pushed towards the center still. Pull allows everything to fall towards the center. It's the same thing except opposite.

A... hyperbola? I'm still looking forward to the aliens in spandex and the tractor beams. I bet the captain will have sex with one of the aliens again!

- Warren

 

[Alkatran]

Wrong. If it passes through something that is small in density, it is likely not to absorb at all. Take the air for instance. Oxygen does not absorb neutrinos, though oxygen is abundant on the earth. Water doesn't absorb neutrinos at a great amount. It's density is one; it's not a tight enough space for absorption. If neutrinos interact with each other, then it would be plausible to say that water can absorb neutrinos.

So what's keeping the air from flying off the planet? But fine, we'll say the object in the experiment have the mass and density required for the numbers I used. ;)

No, forces are NOT canceled out for the last time. The net force is positive. The neutrinos that pass through are simply less in number allowing the incoming neutrinos to out number and over power the passing through neutrinos.

Then why aren't people falling off the underside of the planet? The net force on them is positive towards the sun.

Pushing through emission and absorption. Not the same way gravity pulls. Gravity doesn't pull it actually accelerates (there thrown out the term of convience). How does it accelrate? Let's make a relation between pull gravity and emission and absorption. A meteror is nearing earth. Earth pulls the meteror towards earth. How? The Earth is absorbing the energy that the meteror emits. the energy that the meteror emits ont he side that is not beign absorbs allow the meteror to apply a vector force that accelerates it towards earth. Does that sound good as an eliminance of terms of convience?

Earth pulls the meteor towards Earth by gravity. That's how.

How long does it take for light to lose intensity from galaxies that are billions of miles away?

Tell you what. Go stand half as far from the sun and tell me how bright it is.
Oh, and the light doesn't lose intensity, there's just less of it hitting us. The further you are, the more of it passes on the sides. (Experiment: Place a flashlight on your eye. Now turn it on. Now put it across the room and have someone turn it on facing you. Which was brighter?)

 

[chroot]

i did answer ur question chroot. i never made up the neutrino-halo thing. it says it right there in that source i gave u.

Your source does not say that neutrinos are holding the galaxy together.

if they are keeping the galaxy together, they're keeping the ss together.. a child could grasp this concept..

If you can't show the premise is true, you can't derive a conclusion from it. And perhaps a child CAN grasp this concept, but apparently some children can't understand real science.

like it or not, WARREN, this is theory development. what i think has to be taken seriously because this theory is making ur theories look like crap...

How would you know? You don't even understand the real scientific theories.

- Warren

 

[urtalkinstupid]

So what's keeping the air from flying off the planet? But fine, we'll say the object in the experiment have the mass and density required for the numbers I used. ;)

Can you redo it so that it shows density affecting the rate at which the neutrinos are being absorbed? I'm sure the objects in that experiment have different densities.

Earth pulls the meteor towards Earth by gravity. That's how.

Pull is a term of convience. Let's try to eliminate it.

Neutrinos interact only via the weak force. They are not electrically charged, and thus cannot participate in electromagnetic interactions. They are detected in heavy-water experiments by their interaction with neutrons.

I've found this to be false. Here check this out:

It can detect both electron neutrinos and muon neutrinos - but not tau neutrinos - from the faint flashes of light given off when they interact with electrons in the water molecules.

I will again note that collisions, in the microscopic sense, involve force interactions. If a particle, like the neutrino, only couples to the weak force, then the only collisions it can participate in involve the weak force.
There is no such thing as "touching," or "contact" in the microscopic realm.

Neutrinos interact with other neutrinos. This interaction is via weak forces. They absorb each others energy. One neutrino encounters another, densities are different therefore one will absorb while the other emits.

Maybe we should choose between Newton or Einstein. Either gravity is geometric or an attractive force. The two models proposed today are confusing. One was derived from the other, and made a totally different concept.

I find it self evident that you are confused when I explain to you about the net force of neturinos. I'm tired of explaining it and you people twisting my words.

You're also missing a huge part of this problem: if the vast majority of the neutrinos are from the Sun, then the force on both my body and the Earth as a whole is equal.

Wrong, again you have misinterpreted what I am trying to say.

The density of Mercury is close to the density of iron. The density of Saturn, however, is lower than that of water. They both orbit the same star in essentially perfectly concentric orbits. How do you explain this?

Think of it this way: Mercury is able to absorb more, ergo it can keep a tight orbit. Saturn is unable to absorb as rapidly as mercury. It's orbit is much larger than mercury also, because it is harder to be pushed towards a center.

Quote:
Dark matter is simply a pushing force. Neutrinos are what make up hot dark matter as beatrix kiddo said.

We'll probably not take your word for it.

Well, will this sway you a little more?

Next point of clarity, neutrinos do not scatter.

Space-time curvature is outward curvature of space-time. Hyperbola is an inward curvature. Make sense?

 

[Alkatran]

Can you redo it so that it shows density affecting the rate at which the neutrinos are being absorbed? I'm sure the objects in that experiment have different densities.

And the air flying off the planet? You ignored my question!

Think of it this way: Mercury is able to absorb more, ergo it can keep a tight orbit. Saturn is unable to absorb as rapidly as mercury. It's orbit is much larger than mercury also, because it is harder to be pushed towards a center.

But mercury is closer to the sun. It should get pushed out.

Next point of clarity, neutrinos do not scatter.

That is NOT true. They do spread out. There is NO WAY that they don't.
Here, here's an experiment:

-Take 10 rocks from outside (use 100 if you like)
-Place them on a circle with a radius of 5 meters
-Calculate the amount of rocks per meter on the perimeter of that circle
-Now place them on a cricle with a radious of 10 meters
-Calculate the amount of rocks per meter on the perimeter of the new circle

If the numbers match. Well, I'm wrong. But, you see, the circles got larger, and the number of rocks stayed the same. So the rocks/m HAD to go down.

The same goes for neutrinos on the surface of a sphere. Except the effect is even more pronounced because it's a sphere and not a circle.

THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN GIVE OFF THE SAME FORCE AT ALL DISTANCES IS OFF THEY DON'T COME FROM THE CENTER OF OBJECTS AND RADIATE OUTWARDS (IE: the sun).

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Your source does not say that neutrinos are holding the galaxy together.

i know. I'm saying that since the neutrinos surround the galaxy, they push on it and keep it together.

Are you going to stop avoiding the question and just tell us how they affect us without coming in contact?

i haven't been avoiding the question. are the neutrinos not making contact with the solar system? are the neutrinos not making contact with the galaxy? OMG they are! they are having an affect on both the galaxy and the ss as a whole.

If you can't show the premise is true, you can't derive a conclusion from it.

the basis of this theory is that neutrinos exert a push force on objects in the universe. since scientists know that neutrinos surround galaxies, etc. then my theory says that these neutrinos are going to push on them too. conclusion derived...

How would you know? You don't even understand the real scientific theories

i guess u're right warren, i mean- OMG what is this?!

I bet the captain will have sex with one of the aliens again!

:uhh:

 

[chroot]

I've found this to be false. Here check this out:

I concede; there are several neutrino interactions are relevant in heavy water reactions: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/sno.html#c1

Thanks for the correction.

Neutrinos interact with other neutrinos. This interaction is via weak forces. They absorb each others energy. One neutrino encounters another, densities are different therefore one will absorb while the other emits.

The neutrinos scatter off each other. They don't absorb each others' energy, whatever that means. They do indeed scatter by the exchange of a Z boson.

Maybe we should choose between Newton or Einstein. Either gravity is geometric or an attractive force. The two models proposed today are confusing. One was derived from the other, and made a totally different concept.

No, relativity was "invented," and gives Newtonian gravitation as a limit of low speeds and low curavtures. It was not derived from Newtonian gravity.

I find it self evident that you are confused when I explain to you about the net force of neturinos. I'm tired of explaining it and you people twisting my words.

We get rather tired of explaining things to you and having you dodge our questions.

Think of it this way: Mercury is able to absorb more, ergo it can keep a tight orbit. Saturn is unable to absorb as rapidly as mercury. It's orbit is much larger than mercury also, because it is harder to be pushed towards a center.

Then why don't Saturn's moons (which are more dense than Saturn itself) act differently than Saturn? Futhermore, the Sun as seen from one of Saturn's moons is regularly eclipsed by the planet. Obviously it's neutrino flux is similarly eclipsed. Why does the moon not move any differently during this eclipse?

Well, will this sway you a little more?

As I've said, no one know what dark matter is yet. It might be neutrinos, but it might not be. Your assertion that it definitely is does not sway me, no.

Next point of clarity, neutrinos do not scatter.

Of course they do. They can scatter via any weak interaction.

Space-time curvature is outward curvature of space-time. Hyperbola is an inward curvature. Make sense?

What you're attempting to say is that normal mass causes positive spacetime curvature (i.e. the Ricci scalar is positive), while, in your model, spacetime is curved negatively.

But wait... I thought you were arguing that neutrinos causes gravity, and that space was not curved at all?

What a hodge-podge soup of a theory this has become...

- Warren

 

[Alkatran]

i know. I'm saying that since the neutrinos surround the galaxy, they push on it and keep it together.

i haven't been avoiding the question. are the neutrinos not making contact with the solar system? are the neutrinos not making contact with the galaxy? OMG they are! they are having an affect on both the galaxy and the ss as a whole.

For the last time. If they're AROUND the solar system they aren't making contact with it.



You know what? Nevermind all this, here's the main point:

The sun emits neutrinos. There are neutrinos coming into the solar system (from WHEREVER). These neutrinos balance out so that the Earth revolves around the sun.

That means that the force on Jupiter from the sun is less than the force on Earth from the sun. So Jupiter begins to accelerate inwards. When Jupiter passes Earth, the force from the sun becomes greater and it begins to accelerate out.
Conclusions: Jupiter, and all the other celestial bodes, go for a wild ride.

 

[chroot]

i know. I'm saying that since the neutrinos surround the galaxy, they push on it and keep it together.

According to your theory, the neutrinos must actually interact with matter to push on it. This means the neutrinos must be present at the same spot in space, and at the same time, as the matter affected. These neutrinos of yours that orbit the galaxy do not enter the galaxy -- they exist and orbit outside it, as you've said. If they do not enter the galaxy, they cannot exist at the same spot in space as the Earth, and therefore they cannot push on the earth.

None of us understand how neutrinos on the outside of the galaxy affect anything inside the galaxy -- your theory says they wouldn't.

i haven't been avoiding the question. are the neutrinos not making contact with the solar system? are the neutrinos not making contact with the galaxy? OMG they are! they are having an affect on both the galaxy and the ss as a whole.

A neutrino orbiting the galaxy is not in contact with the galaxy anymore than Saturn is in contact with the Sun.

the basis of this theory is that neutrinos exert a push force on objects in the universe. since scientists know that neutrinos surround galaxies, etc. then my theory says that these neutrinos are going to push on them too. conclusion derived...

Scientists don't know this.

i guess u're right warren, i mean- OMG what is this?!

You've already demonstrated your lack of understanding in a wide variety of physical topics. Everything from general relativity to particle physics to large-scale astrophysics.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

That means that the force on Jupiter from the sun is less than the force on Earth from the sun. So Jupiter begins to accelerate inwards. When Jupiter passes Earth, the force from the sun becomes greater and it begins to accelerate out.
Conclusions: Jupiter, and all the other celestial bodes, go for a wild ride.

Even more telling, consider the situation when Mars and Earth are at superior conjunction. A person is standing on the Earth at noon. An astronaut is standing on Mars at midnight. Somehow, all the neutrinos coming from the Sun and coming from the rest of the universe known enough to push the astronaut one way and the earthling the other, at the same time.

- Warren

 

[urtalkinstupid]

It seems that neutrinos DO interact with electrons. Hmm...but not often.

Neutrinos do not scatter. Everything emitts and absorbs energy. Light scatters, that is why it takes so long for light to reach the surface from the sun's interior. Neutrinos do not scatter, ergo they are able to reach the surface much quicker than light. Neutrino-Neutrino interaction would not result in scatter.

Space-time curvature was derived from Newton. Space-time curvature is applied to a larger scale. Everything causes space-time curvature. Everything has a gravitational attraction. Which theory should be used?

As for the Saturn predicament. I'll explain after researching this stuff on Saturn. I have a vague understanding of other planets. I rarely research them. Saturn is my next stop for research.

What you're attempting to say is that normal mass causes positive spacetime curvature (i.e. the Ricci scalar is positive), while, in your model, spacetime is curved negatively.

But wait... I thought you were arguing that neutrinos causes gravity, and that space was not curved at all?

I'm simply trying to make a relationship just like your current theory does. Is that hard to comprehend?

To answer the air question, are the air molecules in the atomosphere higher in pressure?

 

[chroot]

Neutrinos do not scatter. Everything emitts and absorbs energy. Light scatters, that is why it takes so long for light to reach the surface from the sun's interior. Neutrinos do not scatter, ergo they are able to reach the surface much quicker than light. Neutrino-Neutrino interaction would not result in scatter.

Neutrinos absolutely do scatter. Two neutrinos both feel the weak force, and thus WILL scatter. The reason you're confused is because the neutrino-neutrino cross-section is just incredibly, incredibly small. It almost never happens, but, in principle, it can.

Space-time curvature was derived from Newton. Space-time curvature is applied to a larger scale. Everything causes space-time curvature. Everything has a gravitational attraction. Which theory should be used?

Newton lived before the mathematics to describe curved spaces even existed.

Newtonian gravity can be easily shown to be wrong. General relativity seems to be right, but experiments are still being conducted. It is possible GR is wrong, also.

As for the Saturn predicament. I'll explain after researching this stuff on Saturn. I have a vague understanding of other planets. I rarely research them. Saturn is my next stop for research.

It has nothing to do with Saturn itself. It's just that your push theory fails to explain many, many things, and planetary moons are just one example.

I'm simply trying to make a relationship just like your current theory does. Is that hard to comprehend?

Why don't you drop this obviously flawed line of reasoning and begin inventing a theory that isn't wrong? Wouldn't that be a better use of your time? This is how science progresses -- we make lots of models, and eliminate the ones that fail to describe reality. Yours has failed to describe reality. Don't despair, just move on to to something more promising. I personally feel we scientists understand quite little about the universe so far, and there are many places you could contribute. Stop wasting your time with a theory that can be disproved with a bathroom scale.

To answer the air question, are the air molecules in the atomosphere higher in pressure?

No, the air at higher altitudes is lower in both pressure and density.

- Warren

 

[urtalkinstupid]

So, how exactly do these neutrons "feel" the weak forces?

If the atomosphere is lower in pressure, how come it is able to generate enough friction to cause things to deteriate upon entering it?

Well, I'm fixing to leave so anymore comments will be answered after I get back from watching my friend's band play at Vino's. Well, I'll be gone around 7 P.M. CST, so I may be able to respond.

 

[Entropy]

Neutrinos do not scatter. Everything emitts and absorbs energy. Light scatters, that is why it takes so long for light to reach the surface from the sun's interior. Neutrinos do not scatter, ergo they are able to reach the surface much quicker than light. Neutrino-Neutrino interaction would not result in scatter.

Yes neutrinos do scatter. It takes neutrinos quite a while to reach the surface of the sun coming from the sun's core, just like photons. Although neutrinos still get to the surface faster because they interact less than photons.

Space-time curvature was derived from Newton. Space-time curvature is applied to a larger scale. Everything causes space-time curvature. Everything has a gravitational attraction. Which theory should be used?

Not really. I'm reading a book right now that talks a lot about Einstein and how he developed relativity, Newton hasn't even been mentioned once.

 

[Entropy]

If the atomosphere is lower in pressure, how come it is able to generate enough friction to cause things to deteriate upon entering it?

Lower pressure can still generate friction. Plus things continue to fall and experence increasing pressure as they fall, ergo more friction as they fall.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

For the last time. If they're AROUND the solar system they aren't making contact with it.

imagine the ss as a bubble. now we scatter- i dunno- sprinkles all around the bubble. the sprinkles can be the neutrinos! the neutrinos are both around and touching the ss.. i'll get into this more, but let me quote the admin...

According to your theory, the neutrinos must actually interact with matter to push on it. This means the neutrinos must be present at the same spot in space, and at the same time, as the matter affected. These neutrinos of yours that orbit the galaxy do not enter the galaxy -- they exist and orbit outside it, as you've said. If they do not enter the galaxy, they cannot exist at the same spot in space as the Earth, and therefore they cannot push on the earth.

did i not say they'll affect the solar system or the galaxy as a WHOLE. here's why: these neutrinos are touching the solar system. the ss is not only full of planets, asteriods, and the sun, but it's also full of dust, solar neutrinos, etc. etc. these particles are coming in contact with the outer neutrinos and are creating a gravitational push all around the galaxy or ss. dust and likewise are so numerous they are going to create a constant push effect around the entire ss. this, in turn, has an overall affect on the ss (galaxy) and is going to keep this from happening:

Jupiter, and all the other celestial bodes, go for a wild ride.

 

[chroot]

So, how exactly do these neutrons "feel" the weak forces?

Essentially, all particles in gauge theories (EM, strong, and weak forces) interact by exchanging particles called vector bosons. Electrically charged particles exchange photons. Weakly charged particles exchange the W and Z bosons. Neutrinos can scatter off each other by exchanging a Z boson.

If the atomosphere is lower in pressure, how come it is able to generate enough friction to cause things to deteriate upon entering it?

It's lower in pressure at high altitude than at sea level, but it's still high enough to cause considerable drag to an object moving at high speed. The density and pressure of the atmosphere are basically logarithmic -- the density increases faster at lower altitudes. This is a condition known as hydrostatic equilibrium.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

did i not say they'll affect the solar system or the galaxy as a WHOLE. here's why: these neutrinos are touching the solar system. the ss is not only full of planets, asteriods, and the sun, but it's also full of dust, solar neutrinos, etc. etc. these particles are coming in contact with the outer neutrinos and are creating a gravitational push all around the galaxy or ss. dust and likewise are so numerous they are going to create a constant push effect around the entire ss. this, in turn, has an overall affect on the ss (galaxy) and is going to keep this from happening:

Keep trying.

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

hey, warren. this is a little off topic, but how much longer til i get to be mentor??

 

[urtalkinstupid]

Einstein did use Newton's theories as a foundation for general relativity. Einstein started out with the equivalence principal.

$$\vec{F}=mg$$ and $$\vec{F}=ma$$

From this he noted that everything gives off energy. This energy was able to curve space. This curving of space allows objects to fall into other objects. Acceleration is what contributes to this fall like acceleration contributes to gravity pulling. Light curves around this energy that is given off (gravitational lensing). Black holes cause so much space-time curvature that light is bent so much and blah, blah, blah. Note: gravity is affected by density.

chroot, you are basically explaining what I'm explaining: emission and absorption. This does not cause scatter. Well, not all exchange lead to scatter. I should say it like that rather than declaring that neutrinos never scatter due to interaction.

 

[chroot]

hey, warren. this is a little off topic, but how much longer til i get to be mentor??

I certainly hope you're kidding.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Einstein did use Newton's theories as a foundation for general relativity. Einstein started out with the equivalence principal.

$$\vec{F}=mg$$ and $$\vec{F}=mg$$

This is not the equivalence principle. The equivalence principle is that the physics is the same in an freely-falling frame of reference in a gravitational field as in a frame in the absence of any gravitational field.

From this he noted that everything gives off energy.

He never noted this, because it doesn't even make sense. What does it even mean?

This energy was able to curve space. This curving of space allows objects to fall into other objects. Acceleration is what contributes to this fall like acceleration contributes to gravity pulling. Light curves around this energy that is given off (gravitational lensing). Black holes cause so much space-time curvature that light is bent so much and blah, blah, blah. Note: gravity is affected by density.

Are you trying to explain GR to me? :rofl:

chroot, you are basically explaining what I'm explaining: emission and absorption. This does not cause scatter. Well, not all exchange lead to scatter. I should say it like that rather than declaring that neutrinos never scatter due to interaction.

There are many kinds of neutrino interactions. Only one is called neutrino-neutrino scattering.

- Warren