Newbie vs Einstein: Questions about Time Travel and Quantum Entanglement

[RandallB]

.. my question remains: doesn't Einstein's new ether allow, in theory, ascertaining absolute rest?

TIM
I would say YES
IF, by “absolute rest” you in effect mean changing his mind to accept some form of “absolute space” and some form of “absolute time” sufficient to recognize Newton as in general correct on those issues would be required with accepting any form of an “ether”.

MY Problem with History - is who really changed their minds;
Accepting a new idea to “change his mind” and considering one are two different things:

I am a little more interested in the HISTORY of ideas and how they changed;

First point; was Lorentz “a lifelong advocate of the ether concept”

Often you can find those that claim Lorentz (& friends) “invented relativity first”
But historically that claim is quashed by by Lorentz himself as he acknowledged his transforms were based on length counteractions of matter moving though an ether rendering M&M efforts to measure an ether unable to show results.
But the addition of time dilation based on rejecting absolute space and time Lorentz sited not partial but full credit to Einstein alone.
I had taken this a Lorentz changing is mind on the point and accepting the rejection of the Newton Absolutes. I take him as a GR advocate not an ether supporter!
Does the book you site contradict this view of history, and site some referenced examples of Lorentz arguing for a more “dependent background” that cannot be supported by Background Independent GR. (I understand they would not have used the terms “dependent background” vs. “background independent” back then) . Thus arguing for some form of Newton absolute space and independent absolute time.

MY READ ON THIS: Lorentz changed to accept a “background independent” GR.
---- Do you feel the Kostro book documents a good case to refute this assumption.

Second Point can we really say Einstein advocated for an “Aether” concept?”

Does Kostro give anything in the way of a verifiable Einstein quote or paper indicating GR needed revision toward a more “dependent background” or Newton friendly reinterpretation?

RB

 

[Tam Hunt]

Justin, I have stated clearly and consistently that Einstein's new ether is a relativistic ether - and he always advocated a relativistic ether, not an ether that would allow for detection of absolute space.

My question has been all along: can Einstein's new ether truly be a relativistic ether if it has the properties he assigned to it (inertia, acceleration, etc.)?

The Higgs field, as Wilczek described, is akin to a new ether, but it is still considered to be relativistic. And this leads to the primary problem in modern physics: how do we reconcile the Standard Model with GR?

One possibility and my humble (and probably poorly informed) suggestion: we may "reconcile" these two pillars of modern physics by throwing out GR, or at the least accepting a Lorentzian interpretation of GR that includes an ether that allows absolute rest.

 

[Tam Hunt]

RandallB, yes, Einstein stated very clearly on a number of occasions his support for a new, relativistic, ether. His two major statements on this are "Ether and the theory of relativity," a 1920 speech delivered in Leiden, and his 1924 talk "On the Ether." You can google these.

No, Lorentz never accepted Einstein's interpretation of GR. He went to his grave in 1928 still firmly believing in the non-relativistic ether. He did praise Einstein's achievements profusely, but he never entirely agreed with Einstein's version of GR. See Michael Janssen's writings for more on this complex topic, in particular his 1995 doctoral dissertation (also online).

 

[JesseM]

And I've long puzzled over this issue: if Einstein's new ether allows inertia and acceleration, can't it also allow for distinguishing what is at absolute rest? This seems to be the case because if inertia prevents a moving object from freely moving from its path when a force is applied to it (a kind of "stickiness" of a given object for its existing path), couldn't we in theory identify an object that is absolute rest with respect to the new ether by identifying an object that has no inertia? I am speculating rampantly here, but hopefully you can indulge me.

I don't understand, why would the existence of inertia imply there should be an object with no inertia? Inertia is only detected by applying a force to an object and observing its resistance to acceleration (it has nothing to do with resisting constant-velocity motion), and all objects with equal rest mass will resist acceleration in the same way as seen in the frame where they were previously at rest before the force was applied.

 

[Tam Hunt]

Jesse, my speculation here is that absolute rest could, in theory, be detected by testing a chosen object's resistance to acceleration. Imagine a very small asteroid traveling through space. For the sake of simplicity, let's eliminate any substantial matter near enough to have much of a gravitational influence, so let's imagine we're in the depths of inter-galactic space. We could, in theory, apply a force to the small asteroid while it is traveling through various vectors and find out which vector (there would only be one) led to a much larger acceleration in response to the same force applied to the asteroid than for other asteroid vectors. This is the case because if the new ether is the source of inertia, as Einstein believed after 1916, there seems to be one, and only one, vector that would represent absolute rest with respect to this ether. This follows because the asteroid's inertia increases (and thus its resistance to acceleration) as its speed with respect to the new ether increases. Which leads to the conclusion that there must be a point at which the inertia is zero. And that is absolute rest. Or am I way off base here?

Justin will state that space's (new ether) properties depend on matter. But this does not seem to be Einstein's own interpretation from 1916 on. To the contrary, he argued, as demonstrated by the quote in my earlier post from the 1920 speech on the ether, that space itself has properties (which is also the modern view, re the vacuum and virtual particles, etc.). I'll agree with Justin that Einstein presented different views on this key point throughout his career, claiming as late as 1952 (in his paper "Relativity and the Problem of Space," added to his 1916 book on SR and GR as Appendix V) that space does not have any independent existence. But Justin gets it wrong in stating that Einstein thought space required matter for its existence. Rather, Einstein believed that fields could explain both matter and the ether and would allow for the distinction between ether and matter to melt away. Fields were, in Einstein's later work, considered irreducible. But he never succeeded in creating a unified field theory, which he struggled mightily to find for 30 years. I suspect that he ultimately failed because of his insistence that the "total field," his later term for what he had earlier referred to as the new ether, had to be relativistic. But that's still purely speculation on my part.

 

[JesseM]

Jesse, my speculation here is that absolute rest could, in theory, be detected by testing a chosen object's resistance to acceleration. Imagine a very small asteroid traveling through space. For the sake of simplicity, let's eliminate any substantial matter near enough to have much of a gravitational influence, so let's imagine we're in the depths of inter-galactic space. We could, in theory, apply a force to the small asteroid while it is traveling through various vectors and find out which vector (there would only be one) led to a much larger acceleration in response to the same force applied to the asteroid than for other asteroid vectors. This is the case because if the new ether is the source of inertia, as Einstein believed after 1916, there seems to be one, and only one, vector that would represent absolute rest with respect to this ether. This follows because the asteroid's inertia increases (and thus its resistance to acceleration) as its speed with respect to the new ether increases. Which leads to the conclusion that there must be a point at which the inertia is zero. And that is absolute rest. Or am I way off base here?

Your speculations don't make any sense to me--why would the new ether being the "source of inertia" imply it has its own rest frame? That certainly wasn't what Einstein believed. And even if there was an ether with a definite rest frame, I fail to see how the ether being the "source of inertia" implies that an object's inertia would increase as its speed relative to the ether increased--that just seems like a total non sequitur.

 

[RandallB]

Tam
Thanks for the extra History on Lorentz (prefered frame) – for others interested see:
http://www.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/litserv/diss/janssen_diss/
Title page has Table of Contents ref chapt 3 & 4

By the way welcome to the forum:
No need to respond to my earlier PM (Private Message system see top right of Forum Page) on the book. If I come across it I’ll look it over but I’m satisfied there is not that much new in it.

… the asteroid's inertia increases (and thus its resistance to acceleration) as its speed with respect to the new ether increases. Which leads to the conclusion that there must be a point at which the inertia is zero. And that is absolute rest. Or am I way off base here?

Way off base.
If “inertia” were to become “zero” at any point it would mean even the slightest force would impart an infinite speed or nearly so.
That Lorentz remained on a version of his transforms that demanded what we now refer to as a “Preferred Frame” is what I believe any ether “Constructive Theory” would require. IMO this is what Lorentz expected and what you are talking about. This requires a fairly COMPLETE model to describe things before it will be accepted as a Theory and IMO would need to include a more complete model of Classical Maxwell Fields as well.

Fields were, in Einstein's later work, considered irreducible. But he never succeeded in creating a unified field theory, which he struggled mightily to find for 30 years.

IMO this is where Einstein Theory is unrealistic and incompatible with Lorentz.
Which it must be since as Einstein explained his was a “Theory of Principle” (although he hoped for a way to find “Constructive Evidence” to support it.) A Theory of Principle does not need to show constructive explanations or direct constructive evidence of a unrealistic “truth” of extra dimension(s) (invisible to us) to allow for “Space-Time” warping etc.
Although unrealistic in a Euclidian Reality if we assume that such a unrealistic thing were in fact true and “real”; a “Constructive Theory” could hardly be expected to reveal it. Thus the Principles based theories starting with SR that Einstein developed.

To describe Einstein as “strongly advocating” for a “new ether” is over stating it.
IMO it is clear he was trying to find a means to better describe the required continuous fields, in field which must be considered “unrealistic” with no physical model to adequately describe them. I do not thing it is fair to describe his efforts in this area as establishing a version of an ether. Rather more like trying to find a view into the unseen dimension(s) with as “Constructive Like “Principle Model” as possible. I’m sure he felt that was needed to refute the path QM was using and to enable the desired “Unifications”.

 

[Tam Hunt]

Jesse, a quick response (all I have time for): inertia = kinetic energy, so as speed increases with respect to the ether, inertia increases. Which leads to my speculation that there is an "at rest" speed, with respect to the ether, as the inertia diminishes to zero. Again, just speculation, so I welcome your thoughts.

 

[Tam Hunt]

RandallB, a body at rest, in my hypothetical, would not reach infinite acceleration from an external force. Rather, it would accelerate quickly for an instant, and then quickly be slowed due to the inertia it acquires through motion through the ether.

Re Einstein and the ether, I definitely recommend you read Kostro's book, as it describes in detail the history of Einstein's thinking on the ether throughout his career. Einstein was, it is fair to say, a strong advocate of the new ether from 1916 to 1924, responding to Lorentz's encouragements and Lenard's harsh critiques. From 1924 on, he still used the term, but also talked about "physical space" and, eventually, the "total field" (which included gravity and EM) as a new term for the ether. He always asserted the ether was relativistic. It ultimately comes down to semantics and there is a long-fought argument over whether the "ether" should be used at all due to its baggage.

 

[JesseM]

inertia = kinetic energy

How is inertia equal to kinetic energy? Inertia is resistance to acceleration (essentially just the m in F=ma), kinetic energy is (1/2)*mv^2 (the nonrelativistic version anyway, which is close to the relativistic version when v << c).

so as speed increases with respect to the ether, inertia increases.

Again, this makes zero sense to me, just a complete non sequitur. You might as well say "inertia is gravitational potential energy, so as distance from a source of gravity increases, inertia increases."

 

[RandallB]

RandallB, a body at rest, in my hypothetical, would not reach infinite acceleration from an external force. Rather, it would accelerate quickly for an instant, and then quickly be slowed due to the inertia it acquires through motion through the ether.

Re Einstein and the ether, I definitely recommend you read Kostro's book, ...

hypthetical nonsense - inertia does not "slow" things down it resists the change. your version of "zero" inertia would need to instantly turn on to its full value of 'mass' with any move, that you could never see that it might have been "zero".

I'm satisfied that this "new ether" is better understood as attepting to "Construct" a defined field model, from the detail in the Janssen paper you recommended.
I see where your going and I understand how you missreading the meaning.
Look over chapter four there again and think through the types of Theorys (Constructive vs Principle), much more important than the notion that Einstein was supporting an ether.

 

[Nickelodeon]

I'm finding it difficult to see how a 'new ether' could effect acceleration but have no effect on linear motion (obviously, otherwise satellites would quickly slow down). Sorry if it has already been explained in the thread but haven't read it all.

 

[JustinLevy]

RandallB, a body at rest, in my hypothetical, would not reach infinite acceleration from an external force. Rather, it would accelerate quickly for an instant, and then quickly be slowed due to the inertia it acquires through motion through the ether.

You've admitted yourself that Einstein, even when he referred to space as 'ether', it was still relativistic. So you clearly are not talking about GR, nor are you talking about whatever you think Eintein's 'ether' is (since you seem to think this is separate from GR).

These ideas you are presenting, are old discarded (due to experimental evidence to the contrary) ideas of empty space being a physical medium the aether. Stop blatantly promoting such ideas on this site. If you want to discuss your own personal theories, refer to the independent research guidelines for these forums.

IMO this is where Einstein Theory is unrealistic...

A Theory of Principle does not need to show constructive explanations or direct constructive evidence of a unrealistic “truth” of extra dimension(s) (invisible to us) to allow for “Space-Time” warping etc.

The curvature of spacetime in GR is an intrinsic curvature, not an extrinsic one. You don't need to embed our spacetime into some higher dimensional Euclidean space to show the curvature.

 

[RandallB]

The curvature of spacetime in GR is an intrinsic curvature, not an extrinsic one. You don't need to embed our spacetime into some higher dimensional Euclidean space to show the curvature.

Matches with what I said so I don't see your point.

The curvature is a part of the higher demensional space that we have no realistic model for in our eucliden experiance. Hence GR is not a Realistic Theroy built from a constructive approch. Unrealistic does not make it wrong (Ref:QM) it just required building from "Principels".
Confirming the Principels as correct was a matter of making predictions to be tested as they were. It is still a "unrealistic" or “Theory of Principle”. The remaining question for GR is the conflict with QM.

 

[JesseM]

The curvature is a part of the higher demensional space that we have no realistic model for in our eucliden experiance.

No, it's only your "euclidean experience" that makes you think there is a need for a "higher-dimensional space" for a curved GR surface to be embedded in. If you drop those Euclidean intuitions, there is absolutely nothing illogical or self-contradictory about the notion of a curved 4D surface that is not sitting in any higher-dimensional space.

Hence GR is not a Realistic Theroy built from a constructive approch.

Can you define "realistic" and "constructive"?

 

[JustinLevy]

Matches with what I said so I don't see your point.

The curvature is a part of the higher demensional space that we have no realistic model for in our eucliden experiance.

How can you say that, and then in the very next sentence again repeat the exact opposite of what I was trying to tell you?

Maybe my explanation wasn't clear. Do you know what extrinsic and intrinsic curvature is?

Hence GR is not a Realistic Theroy built from a constructive approch. Unrealistic does not make it wrong (Ref:QM)

You are worrying me here. GR is a classical theory, and doesn't require the 'shut up and calculate' type attitude of QM.

Historically there are people who for some reason thought there was no way to understand relativity and one had to just 'shut up and calculate'. One such example in Dingle. He taught relativity and even wrote a textbook on it. It is clear from his book that he had this type of approach to relativity. Later, since he never really learned the physics behind relativity apparrently, he disavowed it and had huge arguments in Nature and even a newspaper with scientists over relativity. He is heralded to this day by crackpots. Taking the view that one must just accept GR and calculate without questioning is a very very sad state.

As another example, did you know that there was a fully relativistic theory of gravity proposed before GR? It even reduced to Newtonian mechanics in the right limit. However it was not a metric theory (the metric was not a dynamic variable), and was later shown to be incompatible with experiment. GR has real physics behind it. It is not just an abstract extension.


As contrast, the reason QM basically requires a "shut up and calculate" attitude is that it essentially is incomplete (often referred to as "foundational issues"). We hope to one day have a better hold on these foundational issues (the "measurement problem" in particular), and people continue to offer ideas and experimental tests to constrain these ideas. This doesn't mean it is unfounded, or has no physical meaning (in contrast, people have built up quite good intuitions and physical understanding of quantum systems), it just means for the measurement problem, when ever coupling to a classical system is involved we need to just take the positivist view and "calculate". Mainstream physicists don't believe QM is wrong, but the foundational uneasiness is there for a reason. To claim there is similar uneasiness with GR is false. GR is a classical theory and doesn't have these issues.

 

[Tam Hunt]

I'll circle back to previous objections to my hypothetical in a later post, and address here the "constructive theory" vs. "principle theory" issue. Einstein's history on this issue is also interesting and complex. Einstein always focused on creating principle-based theories. Obviously, SR is one such theory, with its two key postulates (constancy of c for all observers and constancy of physical laws in all inertial frames). SR led to some strange consequences, such as the asserted malleability of space and time, which must follow from the asserted constancy of c for all observers (b/c speed is measured in m/s or whatever units you prefer, reflecting space and time).

GR is similar, of course. But Einstein disagreed, however, with the notion that his theories were "just mathematical games" and he argued, to the contrary, that reality really was as strange as his theories asserted. He struggled with positivism vs. realism, beginning his career as a Machian positivist (only things that can be measured should be part of physical theories) and changed mid-career to a realist, arguing, for example, that reason alone required there be a relativistic ether, even though it seemed to be undetectable even in principle. This is the key example of where he began to break from Mach. Again, from his 1920 Leiden speech:

To deny ether is ultimately to assume that empty space has no physical qualities whatever. The fundamental facts of mechanics do not harmonize with this view... Besides observable objects, another thing, which is not perceptible, must be looked upon as real, to enable acceleration or rotation to be looked upon as something real ... The conception of the ether has again acquired an intelligible content, although this content differs widely from that of the ether of the mechanical wave theory of light ... According to the general theory of relativity, space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, there exists an ether. Space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any spacetime intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the qualities of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.

And an interesting exchange related by Isaacson, in his biography of Einstein (p. 332):

“A new fashion has arisen in physics,” Einstein complained, which declares that certain things cannot be observed and therefore should not be ascribed reality.
“But the fashion you speak of,” Frank protested, “was invented by you in 1905!”
Replied Einstein: “A good joke should not be repeated too often.”

 

[Tam Hunt]

Justin, as my last post indicates, I agree with you that Einstein and the large majority of modern physicists and philosophers think that SR and GR actually describe reality. But your point about the ether being a debunked theory is just wrong. As I've mentioned already, the Higgs field is the newest version of the ether - a relativistic ether. And even if the Higgs boson is not found, it is still quite clear that space has its own properties independent of matter, as is revealed by QM and the seething morass in the vacuum that it predicts.

Check out Reg Cahill's work on the quantum foam 3-space, which is akin to the new ether. All things come from this 3-space, which is an information-theoretic network. Cahill is highly controversial, so be warned! He argues strongly for absolute motion due to his belief that numerous experiments (including his) have actually detected an anisotropic (non-constant) speed of light, contrary to the usual interpretation of Michelson/Morley and other similar interferometer experiments.

 

[ZapperZ]

This thread has deteriorated into mainly a discussion on history, rather than physics. It no longer belongs here. If people wish to continue such a discussion, please do so either in GD or in the Social Science forum.

This thread is done.