Newton's laws in polar coordinates

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the application of Newton's laws in the polar coordinate system, specifically addressing the representation of position, velocity, and acceleration using polar coordinates. Participants explore the mathematical formulations and their implications in dynamics, as well as the challenges associated with understanding the derivatives of unit vectors in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the formulas for polar coordinates, particularly the role of the unit vectors and the notation used in the derivations.
  • Another participant suggests that the original post's images may not be functioning properly and encourages typing out the equations instead.
  • A later reply introduces the concept of generalized coordinates and provides a detailed breakdown of the Cartesian components in terms of polar coordinates, including the definitions of basis vectors.
  • There is a discussion on the time dependence of the basis vectors and the necessity of applying the product rule when calculating velocity and acceleration in polar coordinates.
  • One participant provides a derivation of the velocity vector in polar coordinates, emphasizing the importance of including the derivatives of the basis vectors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and clarity regarding the mathematical formulations. While some provide detailed explanations and derivations, others highlight potential issues with the initial presentation, indicating that the discussion remains somewhat unresolved with respect to the clarity of the original formulas.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the importance of using LaTeX for clarity in mathematical expressions. There is also an acknowledgment of the time-dependent nature of the basis vectors, which adds complexity to the calculations.

MikeN232
I need explanation of these formulas for polar coordinate system where position of an object is characterized by 2 vectors: r - from the origin to the object, and Φ - perpendicular to r, in the direction of rotation.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByKDaNybBn_eakJmS3dUVXVZUDA/view?usp=sharing
view

CS92UgxrQ

CS92UgxrQ

The 1st one is how we define a vector: product of magnitude by unit vector (which gives a direction), clear;
the 2nd we try to express change in unit vector, which can only change direction = angle of rotation, but why we multiply it then by unit vector Φ, and why ≈ ? Need explanation;
the 3rd we found derivative of position with respect to time;
the 4th, differentiated the 1st formula;
the 5th, substituted 3 into 4;
the 7th, differentiated it for the second time to find acceleration and here we need derivative of unit vector Φ;
8 found derivative of unit vector Φ; how they did it and why unit vector r is here? Need explanation.
9,10 substituted Φ, found acceleration
 
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There seem to be something wrong with the upload of your pictures. Perhaps you should try to type them rather than to upload it.
 
##\newcommand{\dd}{\mathrm{d}}##
##\newcommand{\vv}[2]{\begin{pmatrix}
#1 \\ #2 \end{pmatrix}}## ##\newcommand{\vvv}[3]{\begin{pmatrix} #1
\\ #2 \\ #3 \end{pmatrix}}## ##\newcommand{\bvec}[1]{\boldsymbol{#1}}##
The link works. Let's do the calculation in more detail. First you define your generalized coordinates by expressing the Cartesian components in terms of these generalized coordinates. For polar coordinates, it's
$$\vec{x}=\vv{r \cos \phi}{r \sin \phi}.$$
The coordinate basis (holonomous basis) is given by the tangents of the coordinate lines, i.e.,
$$\vec{b}_r=\frac{\partial \vec{x}}{\partial r}=\vv{\cos \phi}{\sin \phi}, \quad \vec{b}_{\phi} = \frac{\partial \vec{x}}{\partial \phi} = r \vv{-\sin \phi}{\cos \phi}.$$
Now you see that these basis vectors are everywhere perpendicular to each other, where the coordinates are well defined (i.e., for ##\vec{x} \neq 0##):
$$\vec{b}_r \cdot \vec{b}_{\phi}=0.$$
Then it is usual and convenient to use a normalized basis. Then you have a Cartesian coordinate system in any point, but it depends on the point (i.e., it's a function of the generalized coordinates). Here you have
$$\vec{e}_r=\vec{b}_r=\vv{\cos \phi}{\sin \phi}, \quad \vec{b}_{\phi} = \frac{1}{r} \vec{b}_{\phi}=\vv{-\sin \phi}{\cos \phi}.$$
Now you describe the trajectory by making ##r=r(t)## and ##\phi=\phi(t)##. Then you get
$$\vec{x}(t)=r(t) \vec{e}_r(t).$$
It is important to keep in mind that through the dependence of the basis vectors ##\vec{e}_r## and ##\vec{e}_{\phi}## on the generalized coordinates, these also become time dependent, i.e., you have to take also time derivative of those, and not only for the components. Using the product rule you get
$$\vec{v}=\dot{\vec{x}}=\dot{r} \vec{e}_r + r \dot{\vec{e}}_{r}.$$
Now we have (using the chain rule)
$$\dot{\vec{e}}_r=\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \vv{\cos \phi}{\sin \phi}=\dot \phi \vv{-\sin \phi}{\cos \phi}=\dot{\phi} \vec{e}_{\phi},$$
and thus
$$\vec{v}=\dot{r} \vec{e}_r + r \dot{\phi} \vec{e}_{\phi}.$$
Now, you should try to use this method to also calculate ##\vec{a}=\dot{\vec{v}}## yourself!
 

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