Polar coordinates, sign ambiguity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of vectors in polar coordinates, specifically focusing on the definition and direction of the tangential unit vector, ##\hat{θ}##, and the implications of choosing its direction. Participants explore the relationships between polar and Cartesian coordinates, the use of cross products, and the appropriate methods for determining angles in different quadrants.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the relationship between Cartesian and polar coordinates and derives expressions for the unit vectors ##\hat{r}## and ##\hat{θ}##, questioning how to choose the correct direction for ##\hat{θ}##.
  • Another participant suggests that the direction of ##\hat{θ}## should be chosen so that the cross product with ##\hat{r}## is positive.
  • A different viewpoint argues against using the arctan formula for angle determination, proposing an alternative formula that adjusts for the quadrant based on the sign of ##y##.
  • Some participants reiterate the need to ensure the cross product yields a positive result, confirming the orientation of the vectors.
  • One participant clarifies the choice of tangent vectors in curvilinear coordinates, emphasizing the normalization of these vectors and the orthogonality of the coordinate system.
  • A later reply suggests visualizing the situation with a diagram to understand the behavior of ##\hat{θ}## at specific angles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the best method for determining the direction of the tangential unit vector and the appropriateness of using the arctan function. There is no consensus on a single approach, and multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about the definitions of angles and the properties of coordinate transformations, which may not be universally agreed upon. The implications of the Jacobian determinant in the context of coordinate transformations are also mentioned but not fully resolved.

PFuser1232
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The position of a point in cartesian coordinates is given by:
$$\vec{r} = x \hat{\imath} + y \hat{\jmath}$$
In polar coordinates, it is given by:
$$\vec{r} = r \hat{r}$$
Now, ##x = r \cos{θ}## and ##y = r \sin{θ}## assuming ##θ## is measured counterclockwise from the ##x##-axis.
Equating the two expressions we obtain:
$$\hat{r} = \hat{\imath} \cos{θ} + \hat{\jmath} \sin{θ}$$
Let's say ##\hat{θ} = A \hat{\imath} + B \hat{\jmath}##
We know that:
$$\hat{r} ⋅ \hat{θ} = A\cos{θ} + B\sin{θ} = 0$$
And
$$A^2 + B^2 = 1$$
Since ##A = -B \tan{θ}##:
$$B^2 \tan^2{θ} + B^2 = 1$$
$$B^2 = \cos^2{θ}$$
$$B = \pm \cos{θ}$$
And
$$A = \mp \sin{θ}$$
Therefore:
$$\hat{θ} = \mp \sin{θ} \hat{\imath} \pm \cos{θ} \hat{\jmath}$$
On what basis do we choose the correct direction for the tangential unit vector?
 
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We choose it so that the cross product is positive.
 
To use the arctan formula is not a good idea. You have to adjust the angle by hand, corresponding to the quadrant, where your position vector is located. A more handy formula is
$$\theta=\mathrm{sign}\,y \arccos \left(\frac{x}{\sqrt{x^2+y^2}} \right).$$
Then ##\theta \in (-\pi,\pi]##.
 
DaleSpam said:
We choose it so that the cross product is positive.

That is, ##\hat{r} × \hat{θ} = \hat{k}##, right?
 
vanhees71 said:
To use the arctan formula is not a good idea. You have to adjust the angle by hand, corresponding to the quadrant, where your position vector is located. A more handy formula is
$$\theta=\mathrm{sign}\,y \arccos \left(\frac{x}{\sqrt{x^2+y^2}} \right).$$
Then ##\theta \in (-\pi,\pi]##.

Where have I used the arctangent function?
 
Ah, I misunderstood the question. The point is of course, that you choose the vectors of a curvilinear coordinate system ##(q_1,q_2)## as tangents to the coordinate lines. In the case that these are orthogonal coordinates, one usually also normalizes them. In your case you have ##q_1=r## and ##q_2=\theta##. The relation to Cartesian coordinates is, as you write
$$\vec{r}=r \cos \theta \hat{i} + r \sin \theta \hat{j}.$$
Then the tangent vectors are
$$\vec{T}_r=\partial_r \vec{r}=\cos \theta \hat{i} + \sin \theta \hat{j},$$
$$\vec{T}_{\theta} = \partial_{\theta} \vec{r} = -r \sin \theta \hat{i} + r \cos \theta \hat{j}.$$
Obviously ##\vec{T}_r \cdot \vec{T}_{\theta}=0##, i.e., we have orthogonal coordinates. Thus one uses the normalized basis vectors
$$\hat{r}=\vec{T}_r/|\vec{T}_r|=\vec{T}_r=\cos \theta \hat{i} + \sin \theta \hat{j},$$
$$\hat{\theta}=\vec{T}_{\theta}/|\vec{T}_{\theta}|=\vec{T}_{\theta}/r = -\sin \theta \hat{i} + \cos \theta \hat{j}.$$
A cross product doesn't make too much sense in the planar case. Also one chooses always the vectors in direction of the tangent vectors to the coordinate lines.

For an orientation preserving transformation from Cartesian to curvilinear coordinates you have to make the order of the curvilinear coordinates such that the Jacobian of the transformation is positive. In the case of polar coordinates, the order ##(r,\theta)## is right, because
$$\mathrm{det} \frac{\partial(x,y)}{\partial(r,\theta)}=\mathrm{det} \begin{pmatrix}
\cos \theta & \sin \theta ,\\
-r \sin \theta & \cos \theta
\end{pmatrix}=r>0.$$
 
Just draw a diagram and you will see that when θ=0, θ hat = j, and when θ=π/2, θ hat = -i.

Chet
 

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