Non-equilibrium thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of non-equilibrium thermodynamics in biological systems, particularly in relation to entropy generation in cancer cells and the theoretical application of engines, such as Carnot engines, to limit this entropy. Participants explore the implications of entropy in biological contexts and the feasibility of using bioengines to manage these processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that biological systems, including cancer cells, act as dissipative structures that obey thermodynamic laws, generating entropy as per the second law.
  • Questions arise regarding the specific biological systems being referenced and the practicality of implementing a Carnot engine in this context.
  • A participant suggests that while Carnot engines are theoretical constructs, it may be possible to conceptualize a bioengine that operates on similar principles to manage entropy in cancer cells.
  • Concerns are raised about the necessity and implications of controlling entropy in biological systems, with some arguing that tumors are simply cells with damaged growth feedback mechanisms rather than fundamentally different entities.
  • There is a discussion about the inefficiency of energy use in cancer cells and other rapidly growing cells, with references to metabolic activity and heat generation.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the measurement of entropy in biological systems and question the assumption that reducing entropy would stabilize tumors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relevance and application of entropy in biological systems, particularly in cancer research. There is no consensus on the feasibility of using engines to control entropy generation in these contexts, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the unclear definitions of biological systems being discussed, the theoretical nature of Carnot engines, and the complexities of cellular mechanisms that may not be addressed by simple analogies to engines.

vjrajsingh
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Biological systems act as dissipative structures and obey the universal laws of thermodynamics in spite of being open structures as they follow non-equilibrium thermodynamics. In accordance with the second law, entropy generation occurs. Is it possible to limit the entropy generation in a biological system using an engine? A Carnot engine, for example, is supposed to make the entropy level constant. How would this engine operate if it could at all?
 
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"Is it possible to limit the entropy generation in a biological system using an engine?" Can you explain which "biological system" you are replacing? Can you reference a Carnot cycle engine that actually exists?
 
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shjacks45 said:
"Is it possible to limit the entropy generation in a biological system using an engine?" Can you explain which "biological system" you are replacing? Can you reference a Carnot cycle engine that actually exists?
Yes. I'm sorry if I may sound naive but it's only because my background is in biology. I only just started exploring physics. Cancer cells generally show a massive rise in entropy and are exergonic.
And I know Carnot engines don't exist practically. I'm only asking if it's possible in theory to use a bioengine that works along these same principles to turn entropy generation of this system constant
 
shjacks45 said:
"Is it possible to limit the entropy generation in a biological system using an engine?" Can you explain which "biological system" you are replacing? Can you reference a Carnot cycle engine that actually exists?
Do you mean to say that we'll have to replace the whole system with an engine? Does that mean replacing a complete tumor?
 
If we take out the tumor why are we replacing it?
 
vjrajsingh said:
Yes. I'm sorry if I may sound naive but it's only because my background is in biology. I only just started exploring physics. Cancer cells generally show a massive rise in entropy and are exergonic.
And I know Carnot engines don't exist practically. I'm only asking if it's possible in theory to use a bioengine that works along these same principles to turn entropy generation of this system constant
Still don't understand why one needs to control the entropy in a biological system. A tumor is a normal cell whose feedback mechanisms controlling growth are damaged. There are no new or different cell mechanisms. Tumors are often fast growing, and will probably be warmer due to metabolic activity. I have never seen cancer research refer to a tumor's "entropy". Antimetabolic drugs/radiation affects other fast growing cells like hair. Skin, and intestinal lining; as well as tumor cells. At first I thought you were looking to replace mitochondria to make cells more efficient. But you can't just couple a shaft like a physical engine, you would need to address the thousands of (but finite) chemical and DNA connections that cells have with mitochondria. Note the same less efficient energy pathways like glucose-6-phosphate shunt is used by red blood cells.
vjrajsingh said:
Yes. I'm sorry if I may sound naive but it's only because my background is in biology. I only just started exploring physics. Cancer cells generally show a massive rise in entropy and are exergonic.
And I know Carnot engines don't exist practically. I'm only asking if it's possible in theory to use a bioengine that works along these same principles to turn entropy generation of this system constant
My background was biochemistry. "Cancer cells generally show a massive rise in entropy and are exergonic." So cancer cells waste energy and give off heat. Both the heart and the brain use energy inefficiently and give off more heat than other cells at rest. And how/why "measure" entropy? Entropy can't be directly measured, but is derived from other thermodynamic measurements. Sounds like you think bringing a cancer cell's entropy down will stabilize a tumor? No. Cancer is due to damaged DNA.
 

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