Obtaining this form for molar energy under virial expansion (Callen)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the molar energy expression under the virial expansion as presented in Callen's textbook. Participants explore the relationships between pressure, molar volume, and energy in the context of thermodynamics, specifically focusing on the implications of the virial expansion for a fluid's mechanical equation of state.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference Callen's standard form for the virial expansion of the mechanical equation of state, noting the relationship between pressure and molar volume.
  • There is a discussion on the expression for molar energy and how it can be derived from the pressure equation, with some participants expressing uncertainty about the integration process involved.
  • One participant points out that the equation of state alone is insufficient to derive other thermodynamic quantities like molar energy, emphasizing the dependence on molecular structure.
  • Concerns are raised regarding potential sign errors in the virial expansions presented in the second edition of Callen's text, with references to specific equations.
  • Participants discuss the integration of the total differential of internal energy and how it relates to the ideal gas state and the virial expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the clarity and correctness of the derivations presented, with some agreeing on the need for additional context or information to fully understand the relationships between the variables. There is no consensus on the correctness of the sign errors mentioned or the integration steps required to derive the molar energy expression.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on molecular structure for deriving molar energy, as well as unresolved mathematical steps in the integration process. The discussion highlights the complexity of relating different thermodynamic quantities through the virial expansion.

EE18
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In his Chapter 13.3 (2nd edition), Callen gives the standard form for the virial expansion for the mechanical equation of state of a fluid as an exapnsion in powers of the molar volume ##v##:
$$P = \frac{RT}{v}\left(1 + \frac{B(T)}{v} + \frac{C(T)}{v^2} + \dots \right) \equiv P_{ideal} + \frac{RT}{v}\left( \frac{B(T)}{v} + \frac{C(T)}{v^2} + \dots \right),$$
where I have shown explicitly that the first term in the expansion is the pressure of an ideal gas under the same conditions.

Callen then indicates that this fact implies that the molar energy of such a gas should be expressible as
$$u = u_{ideal} + RT^2\left( \frac{1}{v}\frac{dB}{dT} + \frac{1}{2v^2}\frac{dC}{dT} + \dots \right).$$
How can I see this? I know that
$$P = - \left(\frac{\partial u}{\partial v} \right)_s,$$
but the presence of the ##s## makes this difficult (for me) to see how to proceed. In contrast, since
$$P = - \left(\frac{\partial f}{\partial v} \right)_T,$$
we can immediately integrate the expression for ##P## (which is in terms of ##v## and ##T##) term-wise to obtain ##f##.
 
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$$dU=TdS-PdV=T\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial T}\right)_VdT-PdV+T\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_TdV$$But $$T\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial T}\right)_V=C_v$$and $$\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_T=\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V$$So, $$dU=C_vdT-\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]dV$$$$=C_vdT-\frac{\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]}{\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial V}\right)_T}dP$$
 
Last edited:
Chestermiller said:
$$dU=TdS-PdV=T\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial T}\right)_VdT-PdV+T\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_TdV$$But $$T\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial T}\right)_V=C_v$$and $$\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_T=\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V$$So, $$dU=C_vdT+\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]dV$$$$=C_vdT+\frac{\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]}{\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial V}\right)_T}dP$$
I'm not sure I see how the final expression gets me there. The form for ##C_v## is not immediately clear to me, and it seems like you're tacitly saying I could use that in your final expression?
 
EE18 said:
I'm not sure I see how the final expression gets me there. The form for ##C_v## is not immediately clear to me, and it seems like you're tacitly saying I could use that in your final expression?
What part don't you understand? All you need to do is substitute the equation for P in post #1 into this equation, and you get the Callen result.
 
Chestermiller said:
What part don't you understand? All you need to do is substitute the equation for P in post #1 into this equation, and you get the Callen result.
You have ##c_v## in the expression too though? I think that's where I'm not quite following.
 
EE18 said:
You have ##c_v## in the expression too though? I think that's where I'm not quite following.
OK. How about this: $$U=U_{IG}(T)+\int_v^{\infty}\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]dV$$where V is a dummy variable integration for v.
 
Chestermiller said:
OK. How about this: $$U=U_{IG}(T)+\int_v^{\infty}\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]dV$$where V is a dummy variable integration for v.
I guess I'm not quite sure how you got to that form from the total differential you gave above. Did you integrate first at infinite volume (fixed) so that you had an ideal gas, and then proceed with the volume part of the integral? But then it seems like there's no denominator now?
 
The virial expansion ##\frac{P}{T} = \frac{R}{v}\left[1+\frac{B(T)}{v} + \frac{C(T)}{v^2} + ...\right]## is one equation of state of the gas. This equation of state alone is not sufficient information to derive the virial expansions for the other quantities ##f##, ##c_v##, and ##u## that Callen gives in the second edition of the text. See section 3-3 in the 2nd edition for a general discussion of the information content of equations of state.

As a simple illustration, for the classical ideal gas, we have the equation of state ##\frac {P}{T} = \frac {R}{v}##. This expression does not depend on the molecular structure (monatomic, diatomic, etc.) But the expression for the molar energy ##u(T)## does depend on the molecular structure. So, it is clear that you can't derive ##u(T)## from the ##\frac{P}{T}## equation alone.

In the first edition, Callen gives the virial expansions only for ##\frac{P}{T}## and ##c_v(T,v)##. After giving ##\frac{P}{T}##, he states,

“The specific heat ##c_v## of a real gas also depends upon the virial coefficients. It is found by statistical mechanical calculations that ##c_v = …##".

So, he’s referring to results of statistical mechanics rather than implying that ##c_v## can be derived from the ##\frac{P}{T}## equation using just thermodynamics. In the 2nd edition, he is not as explicit in indicating how the results are obtained.

In comparing the second edition with the first edition and also with another book on statistical mechanics, I believe there are some sign errors in the 2nd edition for the virial expansions of ##f, c_v## and ##u##. These are equations 13.28, 13.29, and 13.30. In each of these equations, the sign in front of ##RT## is wrong.
 
EE18 said:
I guess I'm not quite sure how you got to that form from the total differential you gave above. Did you integrate first at infinite volume (fixed) so that you had an ideal gas, and then proceed with the volume part of the integral? But then it seems like there's no denominator now?
I start out at the ideal gas state at temperature T and very large specific volume, and then decrease the specific volume at constant temperature T until I reach the desired final state at (T,v). The latter is what the integral calculates. No denominator is needed if we are working with v.
 
  • #10
TSny said:
The virial expansion ##\frac{P}{T} = \frac{R}{v}\left[1+\frac{B(T)}{v} + \frac{C(T)}{v^2} + ...\right]## is one equation of state of the gas. This equation of state alone is not sufficient information to derive the virial expansions for the other quantities ##f##, ##c_v##, and ##u## that Callen gives in the second edition of the text. See section 3-3 in the 2nd edition for a general discussion of the information content of equations of state.

As a simple illustration, for the classical ideal gas, we have the equation of state ##\frac {P}{T} = \frac {R}{v}##. This expression does not depend on the molecular structure (monatomic, diatomic, etc.) But the expression for the molar energy ##u(T)## does depend on the molecular structure. So, it is clear that you can't derive ##u(T)## from the ##\frac{P}{T}## equation alone.

In the first edition, Callen gives the virial expansions only for ##\frac{P}{T}## and ##c_v(T,v)##. After giving ##\frac{P}{T}##, he states,

“The specific heat ##c_v## of a real gas also depends upon the virial coefficients. It is found by statistical mechanical calculations that ##c_v = …##".

So, he’s referring to results of statistical mechanics rather than implying that ##c_v## can be derived from the ##\frac{P}{T}## equation using just thermodynamics. In the 2nd edition, he is not as explicit in indicating how the results are obtained.

In comparing the second edition with the first edition and also with another book on statistical mechanics, I believe there are some sign errors in the 2nd edition for the virial expansions of ##f, c_v## and ##u##. These are equations 13.28, 13.29, and 13.30. In each of these equations, the sign in front of ##RT## is wrong.
As usual, it looks like I should have referred to the first edition! Thanks for the tip.

In this case (all equations referred to are second edition), it appears that if one takes (13.29) as given, then one can argue that
$$du = Tds - Pdv = c_vdT + T\frac{P}{T}dv -Pdv = c_vdT \implies u = \int c_v dT.$$
I'm not sure I see how integrating (13.29) term-wise gets me to (13.30) though. Would you be able to see this? Is the integral at constant ##v##?
 
  • #11
TSny said:
The virial expansion ##\frac{P}{T} = \frac{R}{v}\left[1+\frac{B(T)}{v} + \frac{C(T)}{v^2} + ...\right]## is one equation of state of the gas. This equation of state alone is not sufficient information to derive the virial expansions for the other quantities ##f##, ##c_v##, and ##u## that Callen gives in the second edition of the text. See section 3-3 in the 2nd edition for a general discussion of the information content of equations of state.

As a simple illustration, for the classical ideal gas, we have the equation of state ##\frac {P}{T} = \frac {R}{v}##. This expression does not depend on the molecular structure (monatomic, diatomic, etc.) But the expression for the molar energy ##u(T)## does depend on the molecular structure. So, it is clear that you can't derive ##u(T)## from the ##\frac{P}{T}## equation alone.

In the first edition, Callen gives the virial expansions only for ##\frac{P}{T}## and ##c_v(T,v)##. After giving ##\frac{P}{T}##, he states,

“The specific heat ##c_v## of a real gas also depends upon the virial coefficients. It is found by statistical mechanical calculations that ##c_v = …##".

So, he’s referring to results of statistical mechanics rather than implying that ##c_v## can be derived from the ##\frac{P}{T}## equation using just thermodynamics. In the 2nd edition, he is not as explicit in indicating how the results are obtained.
It is possible to determine Cv at arbitrary specific volume using classical thermodynamics by just taking the partial derivative of U with respect to T at constant v from his final equation for U(T,v) derived from the viral expansion.
 
  • #12
Chestermiller said:
It is possible to determine Cv at arbitrary specific volume using classical thermodynamics by just taking the partial derivative of U with respect to T at constant v from his final equation for U(T,v) derived from the viral expansion.
I don't see how you would derive ##u(T,v)## from the virial expansion for ##\frac{P}{T}##. But, yes, once you have ##u(T,v)##, it is easy to obtain ##c_v(T,v)## by differentiation.
 
  • #13
$$\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]=-RT^2\left[\frac{1}{v^2}\frac{dB}{dT}+\frac{1}{v^3}\frac{dC}{dT}+...\right]$$
 
  • #14
EE18 said:
I'm not sure I see how integrating (13.29) term-wise gets me to (13.30) though. Would you be able to see this? Is the integral at constant ##v##?
It helps to first verify $$T\frac{d^2}{dT^2}\left(BT\right) = \frac{d}{dT}\left(T^2\frac{dB}{dT}\right)$$ Similarly for the other coefficients ##C##, ##D##, etc.
 
  • #15
Chestermiller said:
OK. How about this: $$U=U_{IG}(T)+\int_v^{\infty}\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]dV$$where V is a dummy variable integration for v.
I don't see how the above follows from
Chestermiller said:
$$dU=C_vdT+\left[P-T\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V\right]dV$$
 
  • #16
TSny said:
It helps to first verify $$T\frac{d^2}{dT^2}\left(BT\right) = \frac{d}{dT}\left(T^2\frac{dB}{dT}\right)$$ Similarly for the other coefficients ##C##, ##D##, etc.
Just doing this out for psterity.

We have
$$T\frac{d^2}{dT^2}\left(BT\right) = T\frac{d}{dT}\left(B'T + B\right) = T^2B'' + 2TB' = \frac{d}{dT}\left(T^2\frac{dB}{dT}\right).$$

In so doing, I suppose I've verified that ##u## as written represents an antiderivative of ##c_v## (with respect to #T#). I think that's good enough. Thank you!
 
  • #17
TSny said:
I don't see how the above follows from
There should be a minus sign before the 2nd term. My mistake.
 
  • #18
Chestermiller said:
There should be a minus sign before the 2nd term. My mistake.
That's OK. I didn't notice the sign error.

But, I don't see how ##U_{IG}(T)## arises in the expression for ##U## in post #6.
 
  • #19
TSny said:
That's OK. I didn't notice the sign error.

But, I don't see how ##U_{IG}(T)## arises in the expression for ##U## in post #6.
Are you familiar with Hess’ law?
 
  • #20
TSny said:
That's OK. I didn't notice the sign error.

But, I don't see how ##U_{IG}(T)## arises in the expression for ##U## in post #6.
If U=U(T,v) represents the internal energy at temperature T and molar volume v, then, in the limit of ideal gas behavior $$U_{IG}(T)=U(T,v\rightarrow \infty)$$and $$C_v^{IG}(T)=\frac{dU_{IG}}{dT}$$Applying Hess' Law, we have $$U(T,v)=U_{IG}(T_{Ref})+\Delta U_1+\Delta U_2$$where $$\Delta U_1=U_{IG}(T)-U_{IG}(T_{Ref})=\int_{T_{Ref}}^T{C_v(T')dT'}$$and $$\Delta U_2=U(T,v)-U(T,v\rightarrow \infty)=U(T,v)-U_{IG}(T)$$$$=\int_v^{\infty}{\left[P-T\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right]_VdV}$$where V is a dummy variable of integration for v.
 
  • #21
Chestermiller said:
If U=U(T,v) represents the internal energy at temperature T and molar volume v, then, in the limit of ideal gas behavior $$U_{IG}(T)=U(T,v\rightarrow \infty)$$and $$C_v^{IG}(T)=\frac{dU_{IG}}{dT}$$Applying Hess' Law, we have $$U(T,v)=U_{IG}(T_{Ref})+\Delta U_1+\Delta U_2$$where $$\Delta U_1=U_{IG}(T)-U_{IG}(T_{Ref})=\int_{T_{Ref}}^T{C_v(T')dT'}$$and $$\Delta U_2=U(T,v)-U(T,v\rightarrow \infty)=U(T,v)-U_{IG}(T)$$$$=\int_v^{\infty}{\left[P-T\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right]_VdV}$$where V is a dummy variable of integration for v.
Thanks, Chestermiller. I follow and agree with all of this. It's very nice!

I believe you have shown that given only ##P(T,v)## for any real gas, you can obtain ##U(T,v)## for the gas. The argument does invoke the assumption that the behavior of a real gas must approximate an ideal gas for ##v \rightarrow \infty##. Although this assumption cannot be justified by purely macroscopic thermodynamic reasoning, it is a natural assumption based on the microscopic description of a gas.

I find it very interesting that this assumption appears to be all you need in order to essentially derive all of the equations of state of a real gas from just the one equation of state for ##P(T, v)##. Of course, I could be overlooking something.
 
  • #22
TSny said:
Thanks, Chestermiller. I follow and agree with all of this. It's very nice!

I believe you have shown that given only ##P(T,v)## for any real gas, you can obtain ##U(T,v)## for the gas. The argument does invoke the assumption that the behavior of a real gas must approximate an ideal gas for ##v \rightarrow \infty##. Although this assumption cannot be justified by purely macroscopic thermodynamic reasoning, it is a natural assumption based on the microscopic description of a gas.

I find it very interesting that this assumption appears to be all you need in order to essentially derive all of the equations of state of a real gas from just the one equation of state for ##P(T, v)##. Of course, I could be overlooking something.
You also need the heat capacity in the ideal gas limit.

We engineers always regard an ideal gas as the limiting behavior of a real gas at low pressure.
 
  • #23
Chestermiller said:
You also need the heat capacity in the ideal gas limit.
Yes, good point.
##C_{v_{IG}}## is certainly not obtainable from ##P(T,v)## for the real gas. So, to get ##U(T,v)## from ##P(T,v)##, you need to know ##C_{v_{IG}}(T)##. And ##C_{v_{IG}}## depends on the molecular structure: monatomic, diatomic, etc.
 
  • #24
Chestermiller said:
You also need the heat capacity in the ideal gas limit.

We engineers always regard an ideal gas as the limiting behavior of a real gas at low pressure.
This was fascinating. Thank you to you and @TSny for this very interesting addendum!
 

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