Is Jamie King's Approach to Operator Overloading in C++ the Best Practice?

[yungman]

I want to start a thread on Operator overloading for related question.

I watched this youtube video and I like the way Jamie King write the operator overloading function:
This is the program I copied from him:

#include <iostream>
using namespace std;
struct Vector
{int x; int y;};
//Below is another way to write operator function.
Vector operator+(const Vector& left, const Vector& right)
{    Vector ret;
    ret.x = left.x + right.x;
    ret.y = left.y + right.y;
    return ret;
}
/*Vector operator+( const Vector& right)//normal way of writing operator function.
{    Vector ret;
    ret.x = x + right.x;
    ret.y = y + right.y;
    return ret;
}*/
int main()
{    Vector v1; v1.x = 2; v1.y = 3;
    Vector v2; v2.x = 1; v2.y = 4;
    Vector result; //result = v1 + v2;
     result = operator+(v1, v2);
    cout << " result.x = " << result.x << "  result.y = " << result.y << "\n\n";
}

He uses Vector operator+(Vector &left, Vector&right){}. then in main() result = operator+(v1,v2). To me, this is a lot more descriptive.

Is there anything wrong with writing like this instead of the conventional Vector operatort+(Vector&right){}?

I really find youtube video very helpful, much more so than reading online articles.

 

[jedishrfu]

The difference is that in his case you are explicitly calling the operator+() function and missing out on the operator overloading feature of invisibility when you define it as operator:

// INTEGER Math
int a = 1;
int b = 2;
int c;

// regular integer addition
c= a + b;

// commutative property of addition
c = b + a;

// VECTOR Math
Vector v1; v1.x=1; v1.y=1;
Vector v2; v.x=2; v2.y=2;
Vector v3;

// looks like regular vector addition (v3 = v1.operator+(v2); is nicely hidden from view)
v3 = v1+v2;

// and has commutativity (v3 = v2.operator+(v1); is nicely hidden from view)
v3 = v2 + v1;

 

[Mark44]

The uncommented version is silly.

Vector operator+(const Vector& left, const Vector& right)
{    Vector ret;
    ret.x = left.x + right.x;
    ret.y = left.y + right.y;
    return ret;
}

In this implementation, operator+() has three parameters: this, left, and right. The code above would appear to have been written by someone who is unaware that every class member function has an implied first parameter, a pointer to the class instance.
I didn't watch the video, but I really hope that the video's author made the point that this is a naive version.

 

[FactChecker]

Imagine what some typical mathematical expressions would look like with that approach:
v5 = 5*v1+12*(v2-3*v3); // With operator overloading, this can be defined to work as-is

Convert it to the approach that you prefer and see if you still prefer it.

 

[yungman]

Thanks guys. I see your point. If over loading is about making struct and class object look like using simple operator, you have the point. I like it because it explain how the mechanism of the operator works.

 

[pbuk]

I didn't watch the video, but I really hope that the video's author made the point that this is a naive version.

Yes indeed. In fact by reference to the link I posted to the C++ documentation in the similarly-themed thread the canonical implementation of 2D vector addition overloads would be (corrected thanks to this post this post)

class Vector
{
public:
  Vector& operator+=(const Vector& rhs) // compound assignment (does not need to be a member,
  {                           // but often is, to modify the private members)
    x += rhs.x; // Note correction from *this.x += rhs.x;
    y += rhs.y; // see link in post     *this.y += rhs.y;
    return *this; // return the result by reference
  }

  // friends defined inside class body are inline and are hidden from non-ADL lookup
  friend Vector operator+(Vector lhs,        // passing lhs by value helps optimize chained a+b+c
                     const Vector& rhs) // otherwise, both parameters may be const references
  {
    lhs += rhs; // reuse compound assignment
    return lhs; // return the result by value (uses move constructor)
  }
};

 

[yungman]

I can't help but to express how I feel. I am learning C++, I don't judge, also more importantly, if I need to read other people's program, I have to know all these. BUT, if I am writing my program, I would avoid using a lot of these "more elegant" way to save a line or two. Now that I almost finish the brief version of Gaddis book, the main thing I notice the difference of the modern language like C++ compare to what I learn 40 years ago is just more "elegant" ways to try to make the code more "natural", just to shorten a few lines. To me, I would much rather use x = x + 1 over x++ or ++x. I can put x = x + 1 to the place I want it to increment instead of the fancier prefix or postfix.

To me, when I write my own program, I would AVOID all these overload if all possible and just go back to the basic of c.x = a.x + b.x to add member data of the objects a and b. If I want to compare, I would just a.x < b.x individually.

I can't wait to finish this chapter, then to Polymorphism and Inheritance. Then to template and library and finish up C++. That should complete the basic C++, then likely move on. It's very different than I imagine before I started learning C++. To be very blunt, looking at all the things I have with the "latest and greatest" hardware, I serious question the software are better. If it is better, it sure does, NOT show with the slowness and intermittence from ALL the latest and greatest stuffs. I think I already named things I have here that suck to holly hell already. The latest is Direct TV upgraded my receivers and that stupid remote is just suck to holly hell. I KNOW how to use the remote very well, it's just the slowness, unreliable that really kills me. All the fancy features doesn't make up the flaws. Emphasize, I know how to use the remote, that's not the issue.

 

[Mark44]

@pbuk, you have a bug in your code.

Vector& operator+=(const Vector& rhs) // compound assignment (does not need to be a member,
  {                           // but often is, to modify the private members)
    *this.x += rhs.x;
    *this.y += rhs.y;
    return *this; // return the result by reference
  }

The member selection operator -- . -- is higher precedence that the dereference operator, *, which you probably know, but it may have slipped your mind. The first assignment above evaluates as if the left hand expression were *(this.x). Same problem with the second statement.

What is needed are parentheses to force the dereference to happen before the member select operation; i.e., (*this).x or better yet, this -> x.

 

[yungman]

I rest my case.

 

[Mark44]

Now that I almost finish the brief version of Gaddis book, the main thing I notice the difference of the modern language like C++ compare to what I learn 40 years ago is just more "elegant" ways to try to make the code more "natural", just to shorten a few lines.

What language were you using in 1980, which is 40 years ago? Fortran? Pascal?
It's unrealistic to state that the changes made since those days are merely "elegant" attempts to make the code more natural, let alone just to shorten a few lines. Try rewriting the C++ programs you've written in Fortran 77, which was still fairly new in 1980. Good luck with that.
Or try doing the stuff you've been doing with classes, but using Pascal instead. And you'll have a hard time (meaning an impossible time) trying to implement polymorphism in Pascal, a subject you'll be coming up on soon.

To me, I would much rather use x = x + 1 over x++ or ++x. I can put x = x + 1 to the place I want it to increment instead of the fancier prefix or postfix.

Then you're fine with slower code. A statement like x = x + 1; has to evaluate x twice, while the increment variants only do so once. In fact, the increment and decrement operators are generally going to translate into a single assembly instruction, while your version could take several more operations if the compiler isn't very smart.

To me, when I write my own program, I would AVOID all these overload if all possible and just go back to the basic of c.x = a.x + b.x to add member data of the objects a and b.

So how would you output the data members of a class? Having an overloaded stream insertion operator would save a lot of lines of code.

To be very blunt, looking at all the things I have with the "latest and greatest" hardware, I serious question the software are better.

What do problems you have with the DirectTV receive and remote have to do with learning C++? And what do the "features" of these devices have to do with the capabilities of C++? Anybody can write bad code or bad firmware, or design crappy hardware, but does that mean the underlying programming language is no good?

You're comparing apples and oranges with a comparison between the features of a programming language and a hardware/firmware combination as implemented by DirectTV. This is not a reasonable comparison.

 

[yungman]

What happen to my last post? Got deleted?

 

[Mark44]

@yungman, I deleted your last two posts, as being off-topic. Your complaints about a washing machine,, printer, newer car, and DirectTV have nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which I'll remind you is about operator overloading.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It's unrealistic to state that the changes made since those days are merely "elegant" attempts to make the code more natural, let alone just to shorten a few lines. Try rewriting the C++ programs you've written in Fortran 77, which was still fairly new in 1980. Good luck with that.

Fortran 77? Bah! No need for them new-fangled features. Strings? Why good old Hollerith data works just fine! DO statements? I tell ya, any of them fancy-schmancy control structures can be implemented with good, old-fashioned GOTO's! 'Specially those computed GOTOs. And comment lines? Waste of a perfectly good punch card. Fiddlesticks!

 

[jtbell]

I tell ya, any of them fancy-schmancy control structures can be implemented with good, old-fashioned GOTO's!

And arithmetic IF's.

 

[Mark44]

Fortran 77? Bah!

I don't need no fancy schmancy high-level programming language like Fortran 77 or even Fortran 66. Writing plain old machine code is good enough for me.

Dilbert, Sept 8, 1992

 

[pbuk]

What is needed are parentheses to force the dereference to happen before the member select operation; i.e., (*this).x or better yet, this -> x.

Good catch, thanks.

I hardly ever post untested code but didn't have a compiler to hand so took the chance - I won't do that again. Edit: I was distracted by the comment in the boilerplate code I linked /* addition of rhs to *this takes place here */, but that's not much of an excuse Well probably not.

 

[pbuk]

'Specially those computed GOTOs.

OMG I had forgotten computed GOTOs - it's bedtime here and now I'm going to have nightmares!

 

[Mark44]

I hardly ever post untested code but didn't have a compiler to hand so took the chance

Happens to the best of us ...

 

[pbuk]

Nightmares...indirection...
[code title=Z80]
LD C,A
XOR A
LD B,A
LD HL,JMPTABLE
ADD HL,BC
JP (HL)

[/code]
...zzz...

 

[FactChecker]

if I am writing my program, I would avoid using a lot of these "more elegant" way to save a line or two.

That is the wrong conclusion. The goal of these features are almost always to make the code easier to understand and maintain.

rather use x = x + 1 over x++ or ++x. I can put x = x + 1 to the place I want it to increment instead of the fancier prefix or postfix.

It is not that simple. It is enough, for now, that you know about these alternatives. That will allow you to recognize them and to use them when the circumstances make them desirable. I could give you examples, but you would probably not appreciate them until you see them for yourself.

To me, when I write my own program, I would AVOID all these overload if all possible and just go back to the basic of c.x = a.x + b.x to add member data of the objects a and b. If I want to compare, I would just a.x < b.x individually.

Just wait until you have to choose between hundreds (maybe thousands) of tedious, repetitive, hard to maintain (and error-prone) lines of code versus one simple line.

I can't wait to finish this chapter, then to Polymorphism and Inheritance. Then to template and library and finish up C++. That should complete the basic C++, then likely move on. It's very different than I imagine before I started learning C++. To be very blunt, looking at all the things I have with the "latest and greatest" hardware, I serious question the software are better.

You may not believe it now, but these languages were not developed just for fun. They addressed serious limitations in the prior languages.

 

[Vanadium 50]

OMG I had forgotten computed GOTOs - it's bedtime here and now I'm going to have nightmares!

Oh, there be worse...far worse...

   IF(J.EQ.0) ASSIGN 10 TO I
    ...
   GO TO I
   ...
10 CONTINUE

And if that weren't bad enough...

According to the standard, if an integer variable is used in ASSIGN, it can not be used in mathematical expressions. But not every compiler enforced this. They would let you write code like GO TO 2*I+10. Hilarity would ensue.

 

[FactChecker]

C++ was never advertised as the most fun language to learn. Years ago, programmers were asked what they did for fun and a lot of them answered that they wrote Perl programs. Today, that distinction probably goes to Python. Perl is more targeted toward writing quick and "tolerant" code. Python is more strict, but it is the "hot" thing these days as the favorite fun language. Serious programmers often use Python when they have a choice.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A statement like x = x + 1; has to evaluate x twice, while the increment variants only do so once. In fact, the increment and decrement operators are generally going to translate into a single assembly instruction, while your version could take several more operations if the compiler isn't very smart.

It is certainly true that the reason ++ was originally included in C was performance. But today? Modern compilers can certainly recognize i = 1 + i and generate code that uses an INCrement rather than an ADDition opcode. I would say that today it's an idiom of the language. Like contractions in English.

And, like contractions, nobody is forcing you to use them. But people will think it strange if you don't.

It also implies that one is not just adding one; one is counting.

[CODE lang="c" highlight="7"]switch(n) {
case 1:
i += 12
case 2:
i += 24
case 3:
++i;
default:
i += 36

}[/CODE]

is perfectly valid code, but most people would write ++i as i+=1, unless this was inside a loop and in the other cases 12, 24 or 36 elements would be skipped.

 

[FactChecker]

One place to use the i++ syntax is where you want to make sure that the variable, i, is incremented immediately after it is used and the incrementation can not be delayed or separated from that use:

this_value = x(i++);

Alternatives like:

this_value = x(i);
i=i+1;

can get accidentally split up.

 

[yungman]

C++ was never advertised as the most fun language to learn. Years ago, programmers were asked what they did for fun and a lot of them answered that they wrote Perl programs. Today, that distinction probably goes to Python. Perl is more targeted toward writing quick and "tolerant" code. Python is more strict, but it is the "hot" thing these days as the favorite fun language. Serious programmers often use Python when they have a choice.

I am thinking about learning HTML after completing 16 chapters of C++. I think that's enough. This is so dry it's not funny. Studying for 5 months and almost the whole book and have only one Directory program I wrote to show for, and still only run in cmd window. I really need something more fun, something with graphics, something that I can see result. I spent so much effort writing the directory program that actually is of some use real life, I loaded for my wife, the first thing she said was " I don't like how it display"! Hell, it's in cmd window! I already change to more pleasing background color and full screen rather than the tiny black screen!

I am not a serious programmer, hell I am not even a programmer! This is just like crossword puzzle for senior citizen like me.

 

[FactChecker]

I am thinking about learning HTML after completing 16 chapters of C++. I think that's enough. This is so dry it's not funny. Studying for 5 months and almost the whole book and have only one Directory program I wrote to show for, and still only run in cmd window. I really need something more fun, something with graphics, something that I can see result. I spent so much effort writing the directory program that actually is of some use real life, I loaded for my wife, the first thing she said was " I don't like how it display"! Hell, it's in cmd window! I already change to more pleasing background color and full screen rather than the tiny black screen!

I am not a serious programmer, hell I am not even a programmer! This is just like crossword puzzle for senior citizen like me.

Long ago, I recommended the Python language to you (but for serious work programming, it is hard to argue with C++). Python opens the door to a lot of the hobby projects that people do. It has a large and enthusiastic user group and a lot of freely available packages for robotics, graphics, artificial intelligence, and other things.

 

[yungman]

Long ago, I recommended the Python language to you (but for serious work programming, it is hard to argue with C++). Python opens the door to a lot of the hobby projects that people do. It has a large and enthusiastic user group and a lot of freely available packages for robotics, graphics, artificial intelligence, and other things.

I am only in exploration phase at this point, I am too busy on C++ to really go deep. I have not decided on HTML yet, just a thought. One thing good to learn Python is I got the Python for kids book for my little grand daughter and I am trying so hard to entice her to programming. Ha ha, I even loaded the VS into her computer when she was staying with us last week. It is not important for grandpa to learn programming, but I think this is career for the new generation. The whole thing that even started me on programming was because my grandson who's a CS major said he doesn't have enough motivation. So I said try if grandpa is nipping on his heal!

Do you have an estimate how long it will take to learn to be get in the door of HTML or in Python? For reference, I learn the Gaddis book from beginning to chapter 14 in 5 months I am just missing the last chapter 15 on Polymorphism and Inheritance.

Thanks

 

[FactChecker]

Do you have an estimate how long it will take to learn to be get in the door of HTML or in Python?

I suggest that you search this forum for "learn python" and look at some of the threads. Also, there are many youtube videos that get to interesting applications quickly (in an hour). I would not recommend that you concentrate on HTML as a programming language unless you are primarily interested in designing web pages.

 

[jtbell]

What is needed are parentheses to force the dereference to happen before the member select operation; i.e., (*this).x or better yet, this -> x.

Or still better, simply x? (since this is in a member function and x is also a member)

 

[Mark44]

Or still better, simply x? (since this is in a member function and x is also a member)

Right. My comment was in relation to how this could be used, which is certainly not needed in a member function.

 

[yungman]

I have a question about overloading << and >>. Below is my program.

The question is where is the correct way to put the body of the operator<<() and operator >>() codes.

I have seen both in the book and in videos they put the codes OUTSIDE of the class definition like in line 19 to 26 within the comment.

I tried putting inside the class Person in line 9-12 and line15 and it works. Is there a problem to put it inside the class declaration like in my program here?

#include <iostream>
#include <string>
using namespace std;

class Person {
    string name; int age;
public:
    Person() { name = "Alan"; age = 0; }
    friend ostream& operator <<(ostream& output, Person& p) {
        output << " For whatever it's worth " << endl;
        output << " my name is " << p.name << " and my age is " << p.age << "\n\n";
        return output;
    }
    friend istream& operator >>(istream& input, Person& p) {
        input >> p.name; input >> p.age; return input;
    }
};
/*
ostream& operator << (ostream& output, Person& p) {
    output << " For whatever it's worth " << endl;
    output << " my name is " << p.name << " and my age is " << p.age << "\n\n";
    return output;
}
istream& operator >>(istream& input, Person& p) {
    input >> p.name; input >> p.age; return input;
}
*/
int main()
{
    cout << " Enter the name and age  " << endl;
    Person per;
    cin >> per;
    cout << per << "\n\n";
    return 0;
}

Thanks

 

[pbuk]

Or still better, simply x? (since this is in a member function and x is also a member)

Yes of course, corrected, thanks.

 

[jtbell]

The last couple of days I've been having fun reviewing operator overloading by writing a class for 3D (x, y, z) vectors. The class ThreeVector has a static data member, incremented in the constructors, that counts how many vectors have been created. Each ThreeVector instance has a data member that contains a serial number, assigned in the constructors.

Each constructor, destructor, and arithmetic operator displays a comment beginning with "-- " to show the details of what's happening.

The code for the class is pretty long, and not completely polished yet anyway, but here's a main() function and the output it produces.

int main ()
{
    ThreeVector a(0, 0, -10), r0(0, 0, 0), v0(70, 0, 70);
    cout << "Acceleration = " << a << endl;
    cout << "Initial position = " << r0 << endl;
    cout << "Initial velocity = " << v0 << endl;
    double t = 5;
    cout << "At time = " << t << "..." << endl;
    ThreeVector r = r0 + v0 * t + 0.5 * a * t*t;
    cout << "Final position = " << r << endl;
    ThreeVector v = v0 + a * t;
    cout << "Final velocity = " << v << endl;
    return 0;
}

-- Constructed vector #1 containing (0, 0, -10).
-- Constructed vector #2 containing (0, 0, 0).
-- Constructed vector #3 containing (70, 0, 70).
Acceleration = (0, 0, -10)
Initial position = (0, 0, 0)
Initial velocity = (70, 0, 70)
At time = 5...
-- Copy-constructed vector #4 containing (70, 0, 70).
-- (70, 0, 70) * 5 gives (350, 0, 350).
-- Default-constructed vector #5.
-- Added (0, 0, 0) and (350, 0, 350) giving (350, 0, 350).
-- Copy-constructed vector #6 containing (0, 0, -10).
-- (0, 0, -10) * 0.5 gives (0, 0, -5).
-- Copy-constructed vector #7 containing (0, 0, -5).
-- (0, 0, -5) * 5 gives (0, 0, -25).
-- Copy-constructed vector #8 containing (0, 0, -25).
-- (0, 0, -25) * 5 gives (0, 0, -125).
-- Default-constructed vector #9.
-- Added (350, 0, 350) and (0, 0, -125) giving (350, 0, 225).
-- Destructed vector #8 containing (0, 0, -125).
-- Destructed vector #7 containing (0, 0, -25).
-- Destructed vector #6 containing (0, 0, -5).
-- Destructed vector #5 containing (350, 0, 350).
-- Destructed vector #4 containing (350, 0, 350).
Final position = (350, 0, 225)
-- Copy-constructed vector #10 containing (0, 0, -10).
-- (0, 0, -10) * 5 gives (0, 0, -50).
-- Default-constructed vector #11.
-- Added (70, 0, 70) and (0, 0, -50) giving (70, 0, 20).
-- Destructed vector #10 containing (0, 0, -50).
Final velocity = (70, 0, 20)
-- Destructed vector #11 containing (70, 0, 20).
-- Destructed vector #9 containing (350, 0, 225).
-- Destructed vector #3 containing (70, 0, 70).
-- Destructed vector #2 containing (0, 0, 0).
-- Destructed vector #1 containing (0, 0, -10).

 

[jtbell]

The question is where is the correct way to put the body of the operator<<() and operator >>() codes.

I have seen both in the book and in videos they put the codes OUTSIDE of the class definition like in line 19 to 26 within the comment.

I tried putting inside the class Person in line 9-12 and line15 and it works. Is there a problem to put it inside the class declaration like in my program here?

As far as your code is concerned, I think the two methods are equivalent. If the function body is outside the class definition, you still need to have a prototype (with the friend keyword) inside it, i.e. friend ostream& operator <<(ostream& output, Person& p); or more simply friend ostream& operator <<(ostream&, Person&);. Only the data types are necessary in this case.

You can also move the code for the member functions outside the class definitions, similarly, leaving only prototypes inside the class definition. In fact, this is how I prefer to do it. It allows one to compile the member functions separately, into a separate object-code file. One can then link the compiled object-code file to different programs without having to re-compile the class member functions each time.

 

[yungman]

Anyone can answer my post 31?

 

[jtbell]

Looks like our electrons passed each other somewhere in the interwebs.

 

[yungman]

Thank you Jtbell. I just want to verify. I don't want it to work just in certain case and give problems later.

Thanks

 

[yungman]

I suggest that you search this forum for "learn python" and look at some of the threads. Also, there are many youtube videos that get to interesting applications quickly (in an hour). I would not recommend that you concentrate on HTML as a programming language unless you are primarily interested in designing web pages.

Thanks

I look into a little about Python, it's like another language different from C++, I have to spend at least a few months to get to where I am at on C++. I might be better off keep at the C++ to get to higher level.

My question might sound funny...when is C++ gets to be fun?! So far 5 months and almost studied the whole book of Gaddis brief version, all I have to show for is doing something on cmd window. I am planning to complete the last chapter on Inheritance and Polymorphism. Then one more on Template and some Library. How much more I have to study before I can be ready to do some fun stuffs?

I read a lot of games, drivers and others are written in C++, I chose C++ because it's consider the most popular language. It got to be more than just writing some stupid spread sheets, employee info, phone and address directory type of stuffs...specially only in cmd window.

Thanks

 

[FactChecker]

Thanks

I look into a little about Python, it's like another language different from C++, I have to spend at least a few months to get to where I am at on C++. I might be better off keep at the C++ to get to higher level.

My question might sound funny...when is C++ gets to be fun?! So far 5 months and almost studied the whole book of Gaddis brief version, all I have to show for is doing something on cmd window. I am planning to complete the last chapter on Inheritance and Polymorphism. Then one more on Template and some Library. How much more I have to study before I can be ready to do some fun stuffs?

I read a lot of games, drivers and others are written in C++, I chose C++ because it's consider the most popular language. It got to be more than just writing some stupid spread sheets, employee info, phone and address directory type of stuffs...specially only in cmd window.

Thanks

Did someone tell you that C++ was fun? I never thought that it was fun, although I loved some of the object-oriented concepts that it was geared for. IMHO, it has always been for serious work (seriously hard). It does allow you to use packages and libraries for graphics, etc. that you might consider fun to use. Personally, I would not write C++ programs for fun.

 

[yungman]

Did someone tell you that C++ was fun? I never thought that it was fun, although I loved some of the object-oriented concepts that it was geared for. IMHO, it has always been for serious work (seriously hard). It does allow you to use packages and libraries for graphics, etc. that you might consider fun to use. Personally, I would not write C++ programs for fun.

Thanks

yes, that's part of it, I even bought the graphic with C++ book by Gaddis. I just wonder when will I consider ready to move onto that. How much more boring chapters I have to study before I can jump onto that.

Also, I was thinking something even more interesting to me, how to write dll and interface with Windows. I want to learn more about the inner workings of Windows. I never into gaming, so graphics is really secondary. I really want to learn more about windows, how to interact with windows. I still have some old laptops with XP or Window 7 I can afford to screw them up when I dig into the Windows. Hell, If I can learn this, I don't even mind spending a few hundred dollars to buy a new laptop and screw it up!

One thing I can think of is study IT, or taking a class on IT. But I really don't know enough what is the best way to do this. Any suggestions?
Also, I've been searching on line which program is the most popular now a days. They are say Python by a lot. Is Python like fashion that is "in" today and might fade. Another reason I decided on C++ is it's been around for a long time and still very popular. I don't want to invest my time on anything that is "fashion". I've seen languages come and go.

Thanks

 

[FactChecker]

Thanks

yes, that's part of it, I even bought the graphic with C++ book by Gaddis. I just wonder when will I consider ready to move onto that. How much more boring chapters I have to study before I can jump onto that.

Also, I was thinking something even more interesting to me, how to write dll and interface with Windows. I want to learn more about the inner workings of Windows. I never into gaming, so graphics is really secondary. I really want to learn more about windows, how to interact with windows. I still have some old laptops with XP or Window 7 I can afford to screw them up when I dig into the Windows. Hell, If I can learn this, I don't even mind spending a few hundred dollars to buy a new laptop and screw it up!

One thing I can think of is study IT, or taking a class on IT. But I really don't know enough what is the best way to do this. Any suggestions?
Also, I've been searching on line which program is the most popular now a days. They are say Python by a lot. Is Python like fashion that is "in" today and might fade. Another reason I decided on C++ is it's been around for a long time and still very popular. I don't want to invest my time on anything that is "fashion". I've seen languages come and go.

Thanks

These topics are straying off the original thread topic of operator overloading and cover a lot of ground. I suggest that you search the forum and look at some of the old threads on these subjects.

 

[Vanadium 50]

How much more I have to study before I can be ready to do some fun stuffs?
I read a lot of games...

If you wanted to learn to program games, why the devil did you pick Gaddis? If you look at the index, the word "game" or "games" isn't even listed? (There are some games in the problems, like Tic-Tac-Toe)

In July, you asked what language to learn. People suggested Python. You ignored their advice. Now it turns out they were right. How is this our fault? (I know...we were insufficiently convincing)

Finally, if you can't write a game in Fortran, or Pascal, or whatever, switching to C++ won't magically make you able to do so. Just like switching word processors won't make someone a poet.

 

[FactChecker]

If Python is the "fashion of the day", then it is at least the "fashion of the last decade". As such, it has accumulated a very large base of libraries for fun hobbies, user communities, development environments, etc. How long that will last is not for me to know. Eventually, something else will come along, but you will still be able to use Python and enjoy it.

 

[harborsparrow]

"What is C++ going to be fun"?

This made me chuckle. I would guess never. It's such a large, messy language--brilliant though it was for its time--that, in my experience, programmers in the past often specialized in C++ only, or avoided it mostly. I was the latter. When I had to have C++ back in the day, I asked someone else to do it. Instead, I learned dozens of other languages, all of which were easier to master than C++.

That is, of course, entirely a subjective opinion. I certainly wouldn't blame you for moving on. If you move on to one of the languages that share almost identical syntax with C++ (i.e., Java or C#), you may find them easier to "master" and quicker to reach a point of being able to do something satisfying. It's so easy to do graphics in either language, for example, that I sometimes made it a first homework assignment (in either language) for students to create a "self portrait" using simple graphics. The results were always wonderful, as students would knock themselves out to create graphics. Then I would move on to things like a bubble box (with random colored and sized bubbles floating in a box). All that would take so much longer to learn using C++ that it's almost unfathomable.

 

[FactChecker]

If you switch to another language, it is not as much of a setback as you might imagine. The concepts you have learned are easy to find in other modern languages and often easier to implement. The syntax differences quickly become natural. C++ is not a forgiving language. I know some very expert programmers who prefer other languages. That being said, I think that a lot of the problems that you have had with C++ in these forums would have also given you trouble in the other languages. There is just a lot to learn.

 

[yungman]

Thanks guys for the input. The reason I chose C++ was because when I was working, we used C++ for all the firmware, it's the language most EE use for testing and all. It is faster than Python and easier to control for time critical situation. Don't tell me speed is not important. In low level firmware, speed can be everything and I always wonder why don't we write the timing critical part in assemble like before.

I never find C++ is hard in programming, what I find hard all along is the names, the terms, all the instance, object...those names that I got lost in reading. Now that I am more familiar with the names, particular I find watching youtube video really help. It's NOT what the program do that is hard, it just a lot of small little things to remember like the tv show called "Million little things"! Nothing hard, just a lot. Then together with unfamiliar names, that made it so hard for the first 3 months.

My question to you guys is whether other languages like Python use the same names and terms that I don't have to learn everything new again? Or they have their own lingo that is different from C++? If it is the same, then it would be a whole hell of a lot easier. Like I said, it's NOT that it's hard to learn C++ for me, it's the names. Now that I find it a lot easier to learn C++, it's hard to start all over again.Lastly but not the least and is VERY important in my life. Do you mean some of you in so deep into programming and work with C++ and don't find it fun?! It is my STRONG held believe that you got to enjoy what you are doing and it's fun if you work in the field in your career, or else might as well KMN. It is my strong hold believe that if I go into a career, I better LOVE IT. My degree was Chemistry, I never worked a day in Chemistry. I was good at it too. I got straight A's in all the lectures in 4 years. But I found I hated doing lab work, I just quit. I was doing pizza deliver after college and refused to look for a job in Chemistry. I determined to find something I love as my career.

I was a good musician at the time too. Before I came here, I won 4 talent quest and was performing on tv and stadiums. I thought that was my true love. Then I found Electronics, one day, I just packed up my guitar and did not open the care for like 15 years because I was so in love with electronics I don't have time for that anymore. I found my true passion of my life. I spent almost 30 years in the field. After I retired, I still study for a few years just for the hell of it because I enjoy it.

I got into designing high end audiophile amps, my amps I designed and built can compare with amps of $5K+ from people that came and listen. I am taking a break to learn something new as I need something to challenge my mind right now, that's where C++ comes in. I am still going to go back to electronics in the future. I cannot imagine someone that don't like their jobs and not finding it fun and work 40+hours day after day, year after year. Money has NOTHING to do with it.

 

[FactChecker]

Thanks guys for the input. The reason I chose C++ was because when I was working, we used C++ for all the firmware, it's the language most EE use for testing and all. It is faster than Python and easier to control for time critical situation. Don't tell me speed is not important. In low level firmware, speed can be everything and I always wonder why don't we write the timing critical part in assemble like before.

Don't you think we know all this? It didn't sound like you intended to work on hard real-time applications, let alone device drivers. You are free to follow your own advice, but then don't complain about what you get. We tried to warn you. I am "unfollowing" this thread.

 

[yungman]

Don't you think we know all this? It didn't sound like you intended to work on hard real-time applications, let alone device handlers. You are free to follow your own advice, but then don't complain about what you get. We tried to warn you. I am "unfollowing" this thread.

I said that was why I decided to go with C++ at the time. Maybe it's a mistake. I don't know what I want at the time, I am not even sure I know what I want to do with programming yet. One thing you are right, I don't intend to do firmware stuff at this point.

 

[Mark44]

Lastly but not the least and is VERY important in my life. Do you mean some of you in so deep into programming and work with C++ and don't find it fun?! It is my STRONG held believe that you got to enjoy what you are doing and it's fun if you work in the field in your career, or else might as well KMN.

I find it fun. It might be different if I were writing code as my day-time job, with time pressures forcing me to produce X lines of debugged code per day. In the past, in one of my careers, I wrote code for a living, primarily in C#, but in my other career I taught a variety of programming classes, including Basic, Fortran, Modula-2 (once, but not Pascal), C, and C++. I am technically retired, but have been teaching a couple classes a year at a nearby college, and have become the go-to guy for our Computer Architecture course, which heavily uses MIPS assembly.
Just for fun I try to come up with somewhat realistic applications that combine C++ and assembly, particularly Intel AVX-512 instructions, some of which are not described anywhere other than in the Intel documentation, and not very well at that.

 

[yungman]

I find it fun. It might be different if I were writing code as my day-time job, with time pressures forcing me to produce X lines of debugged code per day. In the past, in one of my careers, I wrote code for a living, primarily in C#, but in my other career I taught a variety of programming classes, including Basic, Fortran, Modula-2 (once, but not Pascal), C, and C++. I am technically retired, but have been teaching a couple classes a year at a nearby college, and have become the go-to guy for our Computer Architecture course, which heavily uses MIPS assembly.
Just for fun I try to come up with somewhat realistic applications that combine C++ and assembly, particularly Intel AVX-512 instructions, some of which are not described anywhere other than in the Intel documentation, and not very well at that.

That's what I expect people here would say! You guys spent the whole career on this and still come here to help. You got to love it and find it's fun. I was surprised when some people that worked on C++ said C++ is not fun. I would quit if I find what I studied and doing is not fun. There got to be something fun about C++ if someone spend their career working on it. Like you obviously is expert on C++, you got to like it to stay with it. That's the reason I asked the question when is C++ start to be fun in post 38.

My question is more like how much more I need to study all the dry stuffs before I am ready to venture out to do things with C++. I remember you said the minimum is to cover chapter 13 and chapter 14 up to overloading operators a while back. I am studying overloading and will finish the whole chapter soon( in a week or so). The last chapter in the book is Inheritance and Polymorphism. That should not take too long to finish. That's the whole book on C++( the brief version). My question is when am I ready to venture out and do something? How much more I need to study? (not to be an expert, that will take years, but just have the minimum tools to venture to something "fun"!)

I want to study Template and Library( in the complete version of Gaddis). But after that, when is enough?