Order of a permutation is the lcm of the orders of cycles

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the order of a permutation in the symmetric group ##S_n##, specifically focusing on the relationship between the order of a permutation and the orders of its disjoint cycles. Participants explore the implications of cycle decomposition and the behavior of these cycles under exponentiation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if a permutation ##\sigma## can be decomposed into disjoint cycles, then the order of ##\sigma## is related to the orders of these cycles.
  • There is a question about how to conclude that each cycle ##c_i^r = 1## given that ##\sigma^r = 1##, with some participants expressing uncertainty about the implications of commuting cycles.
  • Participants discuss the transformation of a number ##n## by the cycle ##c_k## and the subsequent transformations by other cycles, questioning whether these can reverse the effects of ##c_k##.
  • Some argue that if the cycles are disjoint, then the transformation by one cycle cannot be undone by the others, leading to the conclusion that ##c_k^r = 1##.
  • Others suggest that the reasoning might be overly complicated and introduce a simpler example involving two disjoint permutations to illustrate the concept.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conclusions that can be drawn about the orders of the cycles and the implications of disjoint cycles. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives on the reasoning involved.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the properties of disjoint cycles and their interactions are not fully explored, and there is a lack of consensus on the implications of the transformations discussed.

Mr Davis 97
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Let ##\sigma \in S_n##, and ##|\sigma| = r##. Then, we'll assume that ##\sigma## can be decomposed into a product of disjoint cycles, which commute with each other. So ##\sigma = c_1c_2 \dots c_k##. Then ##\sigma^r = (c_1c_2 \dots c_k)^r## = 1. Since the cycles commute, we have ##c_1^rc_2^r \dots c_k^r = 1##. Now, I am a little stumped. How can I conclude that ##c_1^r = c_2^r = \cdots = c_k^r = 1##?
 
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Mr Davis 97 said:
Let ##\sigma \in S_n##, and ##|\sigma| = r##. Then, we'll assume that ##\sigma## can be decomposed into a product of disjoint cycles, which commute with each other. So ##\sigma = c_1c_2 \dots c_k##. Then ##\sigma^r = (c_1c_2 \dots c_k)^r## = 1. Since the cycles commute, we have ##c_1^rc_2^r \dots c_k^r = 1##. Now, I am a little stumped. How can I conclude that ##c_1^r = c_2^r = \cdots = c_k^r = 1##?
Let's say we have the following order: ##n = \sigma^r (n)= (c_1c_2 \dots c_k)^r(n)= (c_1^r(c_2^r( \dots (c_k^r)(n)\ldots )##. Now assume ##n## is one of the numbers, which are transformed by ##c_k##. What can you say about ##c_k^r(n)## and why?
 
fresh_42 said:
Let's say we have the following order: ##n = \sigma^r (n)= (c_1c_2 \dots c_k)^r(n)= (c_1^r(c_2^r( \dots (c_k^r)(n)\ldots )##. Now assume ##n## is one of the numbers, which are transformed by ##c_k##. What can you say about ##c_k^r(n)## and why?
Well either ##c_k^r = 1## or ##c_k^r = (c_1^rc_2^r \dots c_{k-1}^r)^{-1} \ne 1##, but the latter is not possible because the cycles, their powers, and their inverses are all disjoint?
 
Concentrate on ##n##, a number which is transformed by ##c_k##. What do the consecutive ##c_i\, , \,i<k ## to ##c_k(n)## resp. ##c_k^r(n)\,?## Can they reverse the transformation done by ##c_k\,?##
 
fresh_42 said:
Concentrate on ##n##, a number which is transformed by ##c_k##. What do the consecutive ##c_i\, , \,i<k ## to ##c_k(n)## resp. ##c_k^r(n)\,?## Can they reverse the transformation done by ##c_k\,?##
Well... If ##C_k^r = (c_1^rc_2^r \dots c_{k-1}^r)## and ##c_k^r## are disjoint, then if ##n## is transformed by ##c_k^r## then ##C_k^r## can't possibly transform ##c_k^r(n)## back to ##n## (since we know ##C^r_k c^r_k = 1##, ##C^r_k## would have to). So ##c_k^r = 1##.
 
Mr Davis 97 said:
Well... If ##C_k^r = (c_1^rc_2^r \dots c_{k-1}^r)## and ##c_k^r## are disjoint, then if ##n## is transformed by ##c_k^r## then ##C_k^r## can't possibly transform ##c_k^r(n)## back to ##n## (since we know ##C^r_k c^r_k = 1##, ##C^r_k## would have to). So ##c_k^r = 1##.
You're thinking far too complicated. Say we have two disjoint permutations ##\sigma , \tau##. Now assume that ##\tau(n) = m##. So we have ##\sigma (\tau (n)) = \sigma (m)##. Do we already know the result of ##(\sigma \tau)(n)\,?##
 

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