Outside the Mainstream Forum

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Tom Mattson said:
Firstly, you don't know that that will be the case. We will only know by trying it out.
:rolleyes:

This doesn't make any sense. You disagree with what, exactly? That the posts will be deleted? I assure you, they will.
No i disagree on the fact that the bad posting will stop appearing on this forum. As a matter of fact i think you will have a lot more deleting to do.
In stead of dumping all rubbish in TD, the rubbish will spread out over the entire forum when you remove TD. that is my point.

Let me give you this example to illustrate why i think this: suppose some guy's pet theory is rejected (for the correct moderating-reasons, i am convinced that will always happen here, really). This guy wants to know why, so he starts posting his questions somewhere else in the forum, in another sub forum. Then, the administrators will need to trace back all these posts and delete then because the content will ofcourse be rubbish.

If you look at how difficult it is to convince people (BY USING FACTS) that their theory is wrong, how are you gonna cope with that ? I know you claim that you have already answered this question but i really do not think that.
I mean, you honestly do not believe that answering them back with PM will do the job, right ? That just is not realistic.

Good for you.
Thanks

:rofl: Are you stoned?
:rofl:
No, i really think you were when you came up with this initiative

Firstly Marlon, you told me that you never read TD, and you made comments that are strongly consistent with that admission.
:rolleyes: Yes indeed i did but i also told you that i participated on TD. What i meant to say was I left TD and stopped participating for specific reasons which are the same as why most of the members do not actively participate in TD.

I make my best effort to understand people as well as possible when I listen to them, but there's only so much I can do.
Do not worry, same here...

And secondly, my point to you is to "be more informed" about the things that you talk about. You said, "There is no real info in TD, only the notion that a certain post is wrong", which is patently false.
Mmm, i can see why you say this. Let me explain. What i wanted to say is that most people will not learn many things by reading TD posts. I believe the real sub forums and the journals are much more useful for these purposes.

But let me excuse myself for this patently false statement



I seriously doubt that you would be warned for well-considered criticisms of this idea that are free of barbs. But really Marlon, all you've done in this thread is engage in misguided ranting, which I think everyone can agree that we can do without.
Yes, well let us not start insulting each other just because you disagree, ok ?
Thanks

marlon
 
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Moonbear said:
As for the current TD forum...:rolleyes: I don't know if I'd miss it at all if it disappeared overnight. I realize there's motivation to keep it for the sake of the informative posts interspersed throughout by those who really put the effort in to try to correct people's misunderstandings, but those are so buried amidst the insults, crying, and crackpottery, that I'm not sure how useful they really are.
I completely agree with you

On the other hand, cracked pottery seems to be a popular museum exhibit, so maybe it should be renamed, "PF Museum of Crackpottery." :biggrin: We can all stand around and gawk.
Now that is a great suggestion :approve:

marlon
 
Moonbear
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marlon said:
No i disagree on the fact that the bad posting will stop appearing on this forum. As a matter of fact i think you will have a lot more deleting to do.
In stead of dumping all rubbish in TD, the rubbish will spread out over the entire forum when you remove TD. that is my point.

Let me give you this example to illustrate why i think this: suppose some guy's pet theory is rejected (for the correct moderating-reasons, i am convinced that will always happen here, really). This guy wants to know why, so he starts posting his questions somewhere else in the forum, in another sub forum. Then, the administrators will need to trace back all these posts and delete then because the content will ofcourse be rubbish.
I don't think anyone is arguing it's going to make the crackpots disappear and stop trying to post on the main boards, they do now even with TD closed. But, I disagree that it would be any more work. Right now, they do that and then the thread gets moved to TD, and after being moved to TD, usually after a few more posts, it gets locked. Now, the moderators don't need to move, watch, then lock, they will just hit "delete." And, currently, as soon as a thread is moved to TD and locked, we get the usual posts on various forums complaining about censorship, providing a link to the thread and attempting to re-ignite debate by saying just one more thing, swearing up and down how the moderators are such ogres, etc. I'm sure they'll continue too. Those will be locked or deleted as they always have been. I don't think that will be more work, just the same. And when the offenders are more quickly banned, it stops the nonsense sooner.

I don't see why you object to trying it. If it doesn't work out and the worst-case scenario happens, they can always just delete an empty forum and drop the idea. It seems worthwhile to give it a test.
 
jma2001
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For what it's worth, I think this new forum is a good idea. It will certainly be an improvement over "Theory Development" and a lot of interesting discussion could come out of it. I agree that the only way to find out is to try it.
 
Tom Mattson
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marlon said:
Regardless of how you feel about it, I have in fact answered your point.

No i disagree on the fact that the bad posting will stop appearing on this forum. As a matter of fact i think you will have a lot more deleting to do.
In stead of dumping all rubbish in TD, the rubbish will spread out over the entire forum when you remove TD. that is my point.
Then you are mistaken. There is no reason to think that there will be a substantial rise in the amount of actionable offenses because the vast majority of crank posting is in new threads that they start, as opposed to existing threads already in TD.

And since posting new topics has been disabled in TD (quite some time ago, in fact), where do you think they have been posting? That's right, in the main science forums. The difference from July 15 onwards will be that we delete, rather than move.

Let me give you this example to illustrate why i think this: suppose some guy's pet theory is rejected (for the correct moderating-reasons, i am convinced that will always happen here, really). This guy wants to know why, so he starts posting his questions somewhere else in the forum, in another sub forum. Then, the administrators will need to trace back all these posts and delete then because the content will ofcourse be rubbish.

If you look at how difficult it is to convince people (BY USING FACTS) that their theory is wrong, how are you gonna cope with that ? I know you claim that you have already answered this question but i really do not think that.
Dealing with what you describe here is still easier than responding to the threads, which is what we would have to do if they remained in place. And it is still more desirable than letting TD grow even more.

Tracing posts is much easier than rebutting nonsense. All I have to do is hit a button marked, "Find all posts by User (x)", and I see them all. No problemo.

I mean, you honestly do not believe that answering them back with PM will do the job, right ? That just is not realistic.
We have more tools at our disposal than just PMs, such as the one that lets us track down and delete posts with a minimum of trouble.


:rofl:
No, i really think you were when you came up with this initiative
You of course realize that you are free not to participate, yes?

:rolleyes: Yes indeed i did but i also told you that i participated on TD.
Your said you never participated. You flip-flopped only after being backed into a corner.

Mmm, i can see why you say this. Let me explain. What i wanted to say is that most people will not learn many things by reading TD posts.
You don't know that.

Yes, well let us not start insulting each other just because you disagree, ok ?
The only one who has done any insulting in this thread is you.
 
Chronos
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I'm tempted to suggest calling the new forum 'Crackpots Anonymous'. Post here if you dare. See if you can run your favorite non-mainstream theory past the dogs while wearing a pork chop necklace. Survivors will qualify for 'Theory Development'.
 
dextercioby
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What will you be missing, Marlon, once the new (sub)forum's created, much to your dislikes...? This (*) unbelievebly valuable piece of cr@p...?

By the looks of it, at least at the level of intentions, such nonsense will not be present on PF anymore and will definitely not affect our sight.

Daniel.

(*) Follow the link.
 
Danger
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Moonbear said:
Maybe some brainstorming on the best title for the new forum would produce a better idea.
The only thing that concerns me about it is that as a layman interested in real science, the title "Outside the Mainstream" sort of indicates the sort of stuff that you'd find in "Skepticism and Debunking"; ie paranormal crap, UFO's, etc.. As such, I would avoid it like the plague. Perhaps something like "Scientific Speculations" would be more descriptive of what you are trying to accomplish. Or even something with the term "Alternative" in it.

dextercioby said:
What will you be missing, Marlon, once the new (sub)forum's created, much to your dislikes...? This
I'm going to sue you, Dex. That link gave me one truly piercing headache.
 
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dextercioby said:
What will you be missing, Marlon, once the new (sub)forum's created, much to your dislikes...? This (*) unbelievebly valuable piece of cr@p...?


(*) Follow the link.
:rofl:
ok, after reading that link, i stand corrected

thanks dex

marlon
 
Tom Mattson
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That's right, we will delete threads such as that one straight away when the new policy takes hold.
 
NateTG
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So, is there an ETA for this new forum?
 
Tom Mattson
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Tom Mattson said:
The policy change will take effect on July 15, 2005, and the new Forum will be a Subforum of Scepticism and Debunking.
Tom Mattson said:
The following new Theory Development Guidelines will be posted at the top of the new Forum and will Take Effect July 15, 2005
Tom Mattson said:
The difference for PF as a whole is that today garbage threads are posted (and therefore viewable) in TD, after July 15 they won't be seen at all.
Tom Mattson said:
It really is quite obvious that, for better or for worse, the pre-July 15 policy and the post-July 15 policy have very different implications for both the face of PF and for the way the Staff approaches moderating the site.
The difference from July 15 onwards will be that we delete, rather than move.
NateTG said:
So, is there an ETA for this new forum?
No.

:biggrin:
 
Garth
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What is considered to be outside the mainstream? There is often a conflict of opinion in peer reviewed published work, indeed science would not proceed without such alternative hypotheses, even when one theory is that accepted as the consensus viewpoint.

For example in gravitational theory and cosmology the MOND paradigm is well discussed in the published literature and yet it is definitely outside the ‘mainstream’. Similarly with Self Creation Cosmology.

Are posts on MOND to be posted to this new forum?

Garth
 
Tom Mattson
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I'll say basically what I said to Andre. If you want to make a post to discuss a paper that has already passed peer review feel free to post it in the most appropriate science forum. If you are proposing your own add-on to a theory, or a new theory altogether, that has not already passed peer-review, then post it in the new section.
 
so tom, when will we get the new forum? :rofl:
 
ZapperZ
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yourdadonapogostick said:
so tom, when will we get the new forum? :rofl:
You're going to make him pop a vein....

Zz.
 
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yourdadonapogostick said:
so tom, when will we get the new forum? :rofl:
Actually, I'm wondering whether the posting interface will be like a thread start, or if it will be a PM to Tom.
 
Tom Mattson
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People will post threads just like in any other forum, but the threads will disappear from view and go to a moderation queue. I will copy and paste the opening post and start a thread in the screening forum, where it will be discussed. If it's a go, I'll approve the thread from the queue and it will appear in the forum.
 
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So what happens to the Venus thread? I seem to remember that only the moved/locked threads were to be removed. Correct? Venus is neither. Nor has it been refuted.

One of the reasons why I developed that thread was originality. If within my life time somebody was to publish something like “All-Venus-features-are-explained as-a-logical-end-state-result-of-excessive-planetary-perturbations-interacting-with-inner-core-spin-axis” I could point to the thread, having hundreds of witnesses that I was first. Just a little vanity, I guess. So, please don’t delete it.
 
Tom Mattson
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Andre,

Andre said:
So what happens to the Venus thread? I seem to remember that only the moved/locked threads were to be removed. Correct? Venus is neither. Nor has it been refuted.
Don't worry about a thing. As I explained to marlon, the entire current TD section is going to be closed and archived. Nothing that is in TD will be deleted.
 
Moonbear
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I see the new forum has opened. I like the revised name: "Independent Research." I also like the name of the reviewing forum "Post Court Room." :biggrin:
 
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Might want to correct the spelling of the link on the main page "Independant research".
 
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Moonbear said:
I see the new forum has opened. I like the revised name: "Independent Research." I also like the name of the reviewing forum "Post Court Room." :biggrin:
It's not open until Tom says so.

Greg/Chroot - can you fix the spelling ?

And to all the theorists out here : The Ides of July have come !
 
Tom Mattson
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Well, in Troy, NY it is now 1:36 am on July 15, so we may now consider the new policy in effect and the new forum open for business. :smile:
 
Gokul43201
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...tap tap tap....tap tap tap....hmmmm...no clients yet ?
 

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