News Palin pick an insult to our intelligence

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The discussion centers on the impact of Sarah Palin's selection as the vice-presidential candidate for John McCain's campaign. Initial reactions highlighted her appeal to women, but the conversation quickly shifted to criticisms of her qualifications and the controversies surrounding her, such as her daughter's pregnancy and various ethical issues. Despite these controversies, many supporters remained loyal, attributing her popularity to her charisma and ability to connect with conservative values. Critics argue that her lack of substantial experience and knowledge in complex political matters undermines her candidacy. The dialogue also touches on the broader implications of the election process, suggesting that it has devolved into a popularity contest rather than a serious evaluation of candidates' qualifications and policies. Participants express frustration over the perceived ignorance of voters who support candidates based on superficial traits rather than substantive issues, leading to concerns about the future of democracy and informed decision-making in elections.
  • #301
edward said:
As for the Wasilla sports complex, Palin ordered construction to begin before the city had legal title to the property it was built on. OOPS

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/palin.arena/

The video report itself is pretty compelling.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/palin.arena/#cnnSTCVideo

The town is saddled with a .5% sales tax, runs about $110K loss on fees- maintenance and has about $8M left on the bond to pay it off. And may have several million more to pay if the Alaska Supreme Court rules for the owner who had his land appropriated.
http://www.cityofwasilla.com/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=134
 
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  • #302
LowlyPion said:
That's really a total misrepresentation of any budgetary skills when the state is collecting $7B in revenues just from the oil companies and $2.5B from the Federal government.

Do the citizens like it? Sure. They are gouging the oil companies. And soaking up pork barrel projects.

She has vetoed more than any other governor in the state's history, and from my understanding, they aren't gouging the oil companies in the traditional sense. Taxing oil in Alaska is different than Washington imposing some windfall profits tax on Big Oil to "punish" Big Oil for making "obscene profits." Alaskans own the oil in Alaska according to the state constitution, and the governor of the state has to follow the constitution. They could try to change the constitution I suppose, but then the state would have to implement a state tax and a sales tax, of which Alaska has none. When the state's revenues increased due to the increase in the price of oil, they just increased the money being sent out to the citizens.

As to the Wasilla Sports Complex, there are reports of a lot of ill will floating around about the mishandled land purchase and the extra cost to the city. Not exactly the kind of thing that demonstrates managerial expertise.

Her populism is purchased. And apparently her management skills are an illusion.

You have no way to know if her populism is "purchased." However, assuming you are correct, you assume that Senator Obama's populism isn't similar...? He is essentially promising to help people pay for education, healthcare, their mortgages, etc...which means "take money from the wealthier and give to the poorer." "The government will take care of all your problems."

There is all sorts of stuff (and lies!) "floating around" about her; she has been vetted more thoroughly in the last few weeks then Senator Obama and Senator Biden in this entire campaign.

Why deny what Chuck Hagel has the courage to recognize: She's unfit to hold the office.
http://www.startribune.com/politics...c:E7_ec7PaP3iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiU

One could go back and forth on stuff like this all day. Hagel is a strict Obama supporter. Why deny what Senator Lieberman has the courage to recognize? ;)
 
  • #303
WheelsRCool said:
You have no way to know if her populism is "purchased."

Sure I do. Her image is apparently a cultivated series of mistruths intended to create a myth of populism based on the appearance of integrity and faith and frugality, when she acts hypocritically, even vindictively as in the troopergate issue, and would impose her faith based beliefs on others, while the reality of her state budget is that it is awash in surplus revenue.
 
  • #304
LowlyPion said:
Sure I do. Her image is apparently a cultivated series of mistruths intended to create a myth of populism based on the appearance of integrity and faith and frugality,

Sounds more like Senator Obama to me; which mistruths do you speak of...?

when she acts hypocritically, even vindictively as in the troopergate issue, and would impose her faith based beliefs on others, while the reality of her state budget is that it is awash in surplus revenue.

The record shows she would not impose her beliefs on others.
 
  • #305
WheelsRCool said:
The record shows she would not impose her beliefs on others.

She wanted creationism "discussed" in Alaskan science classes. And wouldn't you expect her to back pro-life judges to the Supreme Court?

Both of those examples are imposing her Christian values on those of us who aren't Christian.
 
  • #306
She also reduced her own salary

But just-released records from the Wasilla clerk's office show a slightly more complicated picture. Palin's pay did drop from $64,200 in October 1996 to $61,200 in January 1997. But, six months later, in June 1998, it jumped to $68,000. Palin's pay dipped once more in July 1999 to $66,000, according to the records, but it went back to $68,000 three months later and stayed at that level until Palin left office in October of 2002.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091903756.html

Yea, she reduced it by -3800.
 
  • #307
WheelsRCool said:
Hagel is a strict Obama supporter.
Prove it. Post links to back this up.

WheelsRCool said:
The record shows she would not impose her beliefs on others.
Link to these records.
 
  • #308
She wanted creationism "discussed" in Alaskan science classes.

Yes, alongside evolutionary teaching, and she never pushed the Alaska Board of Education to teach creationism.

And wouldn't you expect her to back pro-life judges to the Supreme Court?

If she has a choice between pro-life or pro-choice, she is going to of course choose pro-life. Just as you would choose pro-choice, which is imposing your own beliefs on people as well.

Both of those examples are imposing her Christian values on those of us who aren't Christian.

I disagree.

Prove it. Post links to back this up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/20/chuck-hagel-takes-on-mcca_n_102775.html
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/chuck_hagel_an_obamabiden_tick.php

Link to these records.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html
 
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  • #309
WheelsRCool said:
Just as you would choose pro-choice, which is imposing your own beliefs on people as well.

Surely you appreciate the flaw in this logic.

Telling someone they have no choice is imposing belief. Telling someone they have a choice leaves them with a personal decision and not a mandate that they may choose only one way.

How do you harmonize your beliefs about letting states determine minimum wages for themselves and not force one on them and enforcing anti-abortion on someone?
 
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  • #310
WheelsRCool said:
Yes, alongside evolutionary teaching, ...

But there is no basis to creationism, except among those that refuse to accept that the Bible version of creation is myth. It has no equal standing outside the context of faith.

Why should we cripple our children with a syllabus that even suggests myth as fact?
 
  • #311
WheelsRCool said:
Just as you would choose pro-choice, which is imposing your own beliefs on people as well.


That's preposterous! If you don't want to have an abortion...then don't have one!

That's the "choice" in "pro-choice"...you know, government not making decisions for us, and out of our lives, and all that?!?
 
  • #312
Technically, he's right since the right doesn't believe people should have a choice, but that's mostly semantics.
 
  • #313
Surely you appreciate the flaw in this logic.

Telling someone they have no choice is imposing belief. Telling someone they have a choice leaves them with a personal decision and not a mandate that they may choose only one way.

By that version of reasoning, yes; if you believe that abortion is pure murder, then the "choice" argument isn't valid. I'm not saying either is correct, I'm just saying, you're talking about two different ways of thinking about it.

How do you harmonize your beliefs about letting states determine minimum wages for themselves and not force one on them and enforcing anti-abortion on someone?

Why shouldn't states determine their own minimum wages?

But there is no basis to creationism, except among those that refuse to accept that the Bible version of creation is myth. It has no equal standing outside the context of faith.

Well, for one thing, this is why the federal government never should have gotten into education in the first place; leave it to the states. If the folks in Alabama vote in people who will implement creationism teaching alongside evolutionary teaching, let that be their choice. If the folks in California want no such thing, let that be their choice.

Why should we cripple our children with a syllabus that even suggests myth as fact?

It can be healthy debate to listen to both sides, but again, that's why I'd leave it to the states personally.

That's preposterous! If you don't want to have an abortion...then don't have one!

That's the "choice" in "pro-choice"...you know, government not making decisions for us, and out of our lives, and all that?!?

You don't understand fully the pro-life stance. It isn't about infringing on a woman's right to choose or dictating to her about how to use her body. According to the pro-life stance, you are allowing the State (as in the government) to determine the intrinsic value of human life. To a staunch pro-lifer, this is dangerous, because it can lead to things like the eugenics movement which the Nazis utilized to kill Jews, it can lead to the State saying that if a person grows old enough (especially in conjunction with a nationalized healthcare system), that that person needs to die, in extreme cases, trying to create some "master race" where you kill off any type of "imperfect" baby, etc...yes, we obviously aren't a Nazi state with legalized abortion, and I doubt we would turn into a police state anytime soon if the Supreme Court recently had determined that the 2nd Amendment was a collective right; but just like the 2nd Amendment being so vitally important to many Americans, abortion is the same to them.

In their view, you absolutely do not let the State determine the intrinsic value of human life; me personally, I tend to believe that a woman should have a right to abortion during the first trimester, although I don't like it; after that, I view it as murder. The Supreme Court decided that abortion can be for any trimester; that it is not murdering a human even if you technically have to dismember the baby to abort it if it's later on in the pregnancy (although I believe most abortions are first-trimester abortions).

Thus, technically both the pro-life and pro-choice people believe in the same values, just applied to different people:

The pro-life view believes in protecting the right of the human being (or potential human being, if its an embryo) to live, and in limiting the power of the State to determine exactly what a human life is

The pro-choice view believes in protecting the right of the woman to do what she pleases with her own body, and in limiting the power of the State to tell her whether or not she can have an abortion.

One can make arguments such as, "Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to abort a child when that child will be born with a severe disability; what kind of hell will that child end up having to live in this cold world?"

But then one can reason, "But exactly how many abortions are children that will have a severe disability, and ones that simply came 'at the wrong time' and would have been a 'burden?' " How many potential normal, healthy babies (or embryos, depending on your view) were aborted (or killed, depending on your view) in comparison to the amount of potential disabled people who were "saved" from having to go through a terrible life...?

Yes, there are radical pro-life nutcases out there, but do not assume the pro-life people are a bunch of religious hacks who just want to dictate to women about their bodies. They do not see it that way.
 
  • #314
WheelsRCool said:
It isn't about infringing on a woman's right to choose or dictating to her about how to use her body.

No that's exactly what it is. Don't even pretend otherwise. It's specious and irresponsible to suggest that there is any progression to state sponsored genocide or genetic purification as a consequence of giving a woman a choice.

Anti-abortionists are left to the practice of their genetic game of chance as they wish. No one is looking to take their choice or belief away.

Palin is apparently just such a dangerous kind of person in this regard as evidenced by her requirement that rape victims in Wasilla would have to pay for any rape kit work-ups. The State of Alaska disagreed with Palin's choice and mandated all districts must pay. An example of religious activism masquerading as a fiscal conservative.
 
  • #315
WheelsRCool said:
It can be healthy debate to listen to both sides, ...

That's perfectly acceptable for Sunday School. But unfortunately for your point we are talking about publicly funded education.

With no responsible scientific basis for such creationist nonsense, Palin's even suggesting that it might be discussed within the context of science is irresponsible.
 
  • #316
LowlyPion said:
That's perfectly acceptable for Sunday School. But unfortunately for your point we are talking about publicly funded education.

With no responsible scientific basis for such creationist nonsense, Palin's even suggesting that it might be discussed within the context of science is irresponsible.

Wheels also said that it should be left to the states to decide.
 
  • #317
Math Is Hard said:
Wheels also said that it should be left to the states to decide.

Science education isn't a matter of States Rights. Imposing faith based curriculum as science is crossing the line set forth in the Establishment clause which is a Right that inures to all people individually.

Recall that the Constitution is established generally to protect the many from the tyranny of the few as well as the few from the tyranny of the many.
 
  • #318
WheelsRCool said:
It can be healthy debate to listen to both sides
Both sides of what? The line separating sense from nonsense?
, but again, that's why I'd leave it to the states personally.
That only allows a different person to be responsible for admitting crackpottery into school.
 
  • #319
The Federal government only has a say about Federally funded schools. If the States want to support their own education system, then they would be free to choose the curriculum [provided that it met minimum standards].

Being that we place great value on the separation of church and State, it would be inappropriate for public schools to get into the business of teaching a faith based explanation for life. We have churches for that, but apparently this isn't good enough for some people.
 
  • #320
Saying that the state allowing abortion might be a gateway to eugenics is indeed a huge slippery slope fallacy - the two are not related at all.

One decides what to do with embryos, or when humans are in their mothers' bodies, the other decides what to do with them when they are OUTSIDE Of it. By that logic someone who was against masturbation - and there are religious fundamentalists who are against it - could make the leap between allowing that and eugenics.

It's a huge slippery slope fallacy, as even more evidenced to someone who's actually read Mein Kampf - Hitler was PRO-LIFE, so by the same logic he's using, we could say pro-life leads to eugenics - because you believe the state gets to determine when a certain person is OR is NOT life, because, when the state is pro-life, it is also determining the value of life.

LowlyPion was right to point out WRC's logic error.
 
  • #321
Well, Palin's DOT has spent $25M of Federal tax money to build a 3.2 mile long gravel road to "nowhere". The "bridge to nowhere" project is still alive, despite Palin's claims to have stopped it, with 5 different bridges and 3 alternate ferry routes under consideration. We have some pretty severe weather extremes in Maine and we have to build to some pretty stringent standards, but if it cost us almost $8M/mile to build gravel roads, this state would be uninhabited. Palin LOVES pork.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080921/ap_on_re_us/road_to_nowhere;_ylt=Aktw407ppfCa_vu9S1sCTQGs0NUE
 
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  • #322
turbo-1 said:
Well, Palin's DOT has spent $25M of Federal tax money to build a 3.2 mile long gravel road to "nowhere". The "bridge to nowhere" project is still alive, despite Palin's claims to have stopped it, with 5 different bridges and 3 alternate ferry routes under consideration. We have some pretty severe weather extremes in Maine and we have to build to some pretty stringent standards, but if it cost us almost $8M/mile to build gravel roads, this state would be uninhabited. Palin LOVES pork.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080921/ap_on_re_us/road_to_nowhere;_ylt=Aktw407ppfCa_vu9S1sCTQGs0NUE

She may love pork, but to be fair Maine doesn't have permafrost. That makes road building much more expensive than in the lower 48.
 
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  • #323
LowlyPion said:
Surely you appreciate the flaw in this logic.

Telling someone they have no choice is imposing belief. Telling someone they have a choice leaves them with a personal decision and not a mandate that they may choose only one way.

How do you harmonize your beliefs about letting states determine minimum wages for themselves and not force one on them and enforcing anti-abortion on someone?

The baby has no choice. I am sure the baby would want to live. That certainly is imposing ones belief on someone.
 
  • #324
Ivan Seeking said:
The Federal government only has a say about Federally funded schools. If the States want to support their own education system, then they would be free to choose the curriculum [provided that it met minimum standards].

Not entirely true. The Constitution (Article VI, Clause 2) supersedes state and local authority in respect to such things as the Establishment clause.

In this regards the States or Counties are not free to introduce Faith Based Science into ANY public school. On the other side of things Private Schools are exempted and protected in such syllabi by the Free Exercise Clause.
 
  • #325
wildman said:
The baby has no choice. I am sure the baby would want to live. That certainly is imposing ones belief on someone.

What baby? Cells that are a part of the mother? Does State intrusion take dominion over ovums and sperm as well? Is this to be Palin's position if she ever attains the power to impose life decisions on others?

The problem with the whole discussion about anti-abortion is that for the most part it is inexorably intertwined within the roles that men and women play in the reproductive cycle. Given the travails of gestating and nursing and raising a child, I'm not sure that men should have any say in the matter at all up until birth. It's not their bodies they are talking about.
 
  • #326
wildman said:
She may love pork, but to be fair Maine doesn't have permafrost. That makes road building much more expensive than in the lower 48.
Well, to be fair, coastal southern Alaska (Where Ketchikan is located.) has less severe winters than much of Maine, and there is no permafrost there, as shown in this map. The permafrost-free areas are white.
http://nsidc.org/fgdc/maps/alaska_browse.html
 
  • #327
No that's exactly what it is. Don't even pretend otherwise. It's specious and irresponsible to suggest that there is any progression to state sponsored genocide or genetic purification as a consequence of giving a woman a choice.

You are allowing the state to determine the instrinsic value of human life, which isn't a good thing.

Palin is apparently just such a dangerous kind of person in this regard as evidenced by her requirement that rape victims in Wasilla would have to pay for any rape kit work-ups. The State of Alaska disagreed with Palin's choice and mandated all districts must pay. An example of religious activism masquerading as a fiscal conservative.

According to the current mayor, there is no evidence that anyone was ever charged for a rape kit in Wasilla during Palin's administration or that Governor Palin ever supported this policy:

http://www.cityofwasilla.com/index.aspx?page=136

What is interesting is that this policy does still seem to take place in some of the lower 48, including Illinois: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-heal...rape-victims-can-be-hurt-financially-too.html

That's perfectly acceptable for Sunday School. But unfortunately for your point we are talking about publicly funded education.

With no responsible scientific basis for such creationist nonsense, Palin's even suggesting that it might be discussed within the context of science is irresponsible.

That is a good point, but remember, she never pushed for it.

Science education isn't a matter of States Rights. Imposing faith based curriculum as science is crossing the line set forth in the Establishment clause which is a Right that inures to all people individually.

Recall that the Constitution is established generally to protect the many from the tyranny of the few as well as the few from the tyranny of the many.

That is a good point; however, how do we regard things like global warming alarmism, for example...do we also need to completely ban any and all talk of environmental catastrophe from global warming as many children are being taught in the schools today... (for example some schools showing children Al Gore's film).

I'm not saying environmentalism or global warming are not scientific, but much of the climate change fearmongering I would say is akin to the "End Times" fearmongering certain folks on the Right engage in.

Also, even though one may disagree with creationism, what about discussing the flaws of the theory of evolution, and the alternatives, and what is wrong with them all...? This I understand is different than actually "teaching" creationism itself though.

Both sides of what? The line separating sense from nonsense?

How do you "know" if something is nonsense or sense though? Back during the 1930s, you were considered a complete crackpot if you didn't believe in the eugenics movement. Schools also taught children that the continents did not move, because science said so. Most economists thought it made no sense to claim free-market capitalism with little government was workable.

Now I'm not claiming creationism has any basis, or even that it should be taught (religion) but let children just debate things with each other. We should not tell children what and how to think, instead of letting them learn to think critically on their own, it seems.

Being that we place great value on the separation of church and State, it would be inappropriate for public schools to get into the business of teaching a faith based explanation for life. We have churches for that, but apparently this isn't good enough for some people.

How do we know what things are totally "faith-based" though? What about if something does seem to be totally faith-based, but its alternative explanation also has flaws...? Evolution is still a theory, just the most widely-accepted theory; there are alternative explanations as well, albeit lesser-known, that are not creationist. I say debate/discuss them all.

Environmentalism is based on science, so is climate-change, but there are points where that becomes just as faith-based as a religion as well.

Saying that the state allowing abortion might be a gateway to eugenics is indeed a huge slippery slope fallacy - the two are not related at all.

One decides what to do with embryos, or when humans are in their mothers' bodies, the other decides what to do with them when they are OUTSIDE Of it. By that logic someone who was against masturbation - and there are religious fundamentalists who are against it - could make the leap between allowing that and eugenics.

I disagree. What both decide is the instrinsic value of a human life. Whether that life is inside or outside of the womb should be irrelevant. And humans aren't embryos just when inside of the mother; they are embryos initially, then become fetuses.

It's a huge slippery slope fallacy, as even more evidenced to someone who's actually read Mein Kampf - Hitler was PRO-LIFE, so by the same logic he's using, we could say pro-life leads to eugenics - because you believe the state gets to determine when a certain person is OR is NOT life, because, when the state is pro-life, it is also determining the value of life.

The Nazis were far from being pro-life, and the entire eugenics movement was completely rejected by the Catholic Church, so I doubt Hitler was pro-life either, aside from maybe on paper because he needed to win the Catholic vote to get elected to power. For being pro-life, his party the Nazis sure had a penchant for killing the "weaker" races and aborting anyone "imperfect."

The state being "pro-life" does not mean it determines whether someone "is or is not" a life. That is what the pro-choice viewpoint allows, in order to protect the right of the woman.

What baby? Cells that are a part of the mother? Does State intrusion take dominion over ovums and sperm as well? Is this to be Palin's position if she ever attains the power to impose life decisions on others?

So after the first trimester then, when it starts to develop arms and legs and a brain, it's still "just cells" as far as you are concerned...? This is why I can support abortion for the first trimester, but afterwards I reject it.

The problem with the whole discussion about anti-abortion is that for the most part it is inexorably intertwined within the roles that men and women play in the reproductive cycle. Given the travails of gestating and nursing and raising a child, I'm not sure that men should have any say in the matter at all up until birth. It's not their bodies they are talking about.

And after a certain point, neither is it the woman's.

Personally, I think both sides make good points.

Palin LOVES pork.

If she loved pork, I don't think she would have vetoed so much. Remember, Sarah Palin was resisted on this "Bridge to Nowhere"; others in her state wanted it built.
 
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  • #328
WheelsRCool said:
If she loved pork, I don't think she would have vetoed so much. Remember, Sarah Palin was resisted on this "Bridge to Nowhere"; others in her state wanted it built.
The actual documented facts are against you. She rallied for the bridge to nowhere and insisted that the project be stepped up while AK's congressional delegation was senior enough and powerful enough to demand the earmarks. It was ONLY after federal support for the diamond-encrusted platinum bridge started tightening up and AK's percentage of the project got unsupportable that she dropped her support. Now, you should note that she did NOT kill the project, as she claims over and over again. She stopped cheerleading for it, but left it alive, and it is STILL alive, with many bridges and alternate ferry lines still in active planning. I can supply links from AK DOT documents (and have in other posts) if you are dead-set on pushing Palin's lies in this thread.

Edit: here is one of the posts, with links to a map of the project (note the date and see if the "bridge to nowhere" is dead or if Palin is lying). Note that the spokesman of the Alaska DOT is complaining that the press is NOT reporting that the project is alive and well, and simply reprints Palin's assertions that it is dead and that SHE killed it. Palin never gave back any of the money for the bridge that she claims to have said "no thanks" to, but kept it all, and kept the project alive and running. Politicians lie - some just lie bigger and better than others.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1874612&postcount=179
 
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  • #329
WheelsRCool said:
but let children just debate things with each other. We should not tell children what and how to think, instead of letting them learn to think critically on their own, it seems.
That is not the purpose of high school/elementary. At that age children do not have enough knowledge to debate scientific topics. The purpose of high school science class is to give children a broad basis in the accepted scientific theories. Once they have earned a university degree (or two, or three) in biology, then they will be qualified to ``debate things with each other''.
WheelsRCool said:
How do we know what things are totally "faith-based" though?
Seems to me it was proven conclusively in a court in Dover, Pennsylvania...
WheelsRCool said:
What about if something does seem to be totally faith-based, but its alternative explanation also has flaws...?
If it's `totally faith based', as opposed to `evidence based', it doesn't belong in a publicly funded science classroom (as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't belong in any science classroom, but if parents are willing to pay to handicap their children, I won't try to stop them).
WheelsRCool said:
Evolution is still a theory, just the most widely-accepted theory; there are alternative explanations as well, albeit lesser-known, that are not creationist.
Care to provide some examples or references to back up this claim?
WheelsRCool said:
I say debate/discuss them all.
At a university level.
 
  • #330
WheelsRCool said:
You are allowing the state to determine the instrinsic value of human life, which isn't a good thing.

This is a totally false statement ipso facto, if it is a woman's choice.

To prohibit the choice is the imposition of the determination of intrinsic value. It is not your choice to impose on a woman.

It's a rather inconsistent notion compared to your desire for state's rights over Federal Authority.
 

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