Perfect gas in a box with a piston

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of a perfect gas in a closed box with a piston, particularly focusing on the implications of increasing the number of gas molecules while maintaining the same temperature. Participants explore the corrections to the ideal gas law as described by the Van der Waals equation and seek to understand the physical reasoning behind changes in pressure due to molecular volume and interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference the Van der Waals equation to explain corrections to the ideal gas behavior, specifically the terms related to molecular attraction and finite volume.
  • There is a discussion about how the finite volume of gas particles affects the effective volume available for movement, which is proposed to influence pressure.
  • Some participants express confusion about the physical reasoning behind the increase in pressure when accounting for the finite volume of gas molecules.
  • One participant suggests that increased collisions due to reduced space might explain the increase in pressure, seeking validation of this idea.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the application of the Van der Waals equation and its implications but express differing levels of understanding regarding the physical interpretations of pressure changes. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the intuitive grasp of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of the physical implications of molecular volume and interactions, as well as the mathematical representation of these effects in the Van der Waals equation.

Aleoa
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We have a perfect gas in a closed box. On the top of the box there is a piston.
We know that the molecules of the gas exert a pressure on the piston.
Now let us put twice as many molecules in this tank, so as to double the
density, and let them have the same speed, i.e., the same temperature.
At this point my book says :

"If we consider the true nature of the forces between the atoms, we would expect
a slight decrease in pressure because of the attraction between the atoms, and
a slight increase because of the finite volume they occupy."

I'm not able to understand what does the underlined sentence mean, can you help ?
 
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They are giving a verbal description of the corrections from an ideal gas that are found in the Van der Waal's equation: ## (P+\frac{a n^2}{V^2})(V-nb)=nRT ##. The part of the sentence in bold letters is what the correction term ##-nb ## represents. Because of this term, the pressure ## P ## will be slightly larger. ## \\ ##For the previous part of the sentence, the correction is the ## +\frac{an^2}{V^2} ## term.
 
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Intuitively speaking, how is connected the slight increase of pressure with the fact that the volume is finite ?
 
Aleoa said:
Intuitively speaking, how is connected the slight increase of pressure with the fact that the volume is finite ?
A given gas particle=say you put an atom in the container that has zero volume, will be moving around inside a volume that will be basically ## V-nb ## because of the volume occupied by all of the other gas particles. Their finite volume essentially makes the effective volume of the container slightly smaller.
 
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And this, in which way produces an increment of pressure ?
 
Last edited:
Aleoa said:
And this, in which way produces an increment of pressure ?
The lower volume in the equation, (i.e. ## V-nb ## instead of ## V ##), means ##P ## will need to be slightly larger in order for the product of ## P+\frac{an^2}{V^2} ## and ## V-nb ## to equal ## nRT ##.
 
If we first try to model a gas with the ideal gas law and the we use the Wan der Waal's correction, what changes it that the number of molecules are fewer in the real modeling of the problem, since every molecules has a definite volume in the real case, and cannot be considered as a point.
A part from Wan der Waal's mathematic formula, i don't understand why this cause a increment in pressure.
 
Aleoa said:
If we first try to model a gas with the ideal gas law and the we use the Wan der Waal's correction, what changes it that the number of molecules are fewer in the real modeling of the problem, since every molecules has a definite volume in the real case, and cannot be considered as a point.
A part from Wan der Waal's mathematic formula, i don't understand why this cause a increment in pressure.
In the modeling of the problem, the number of molecules is still ## n N_A ##, where ## n ## is the number of moles and ## N_A ## is Avogadro's number. If you put the same number of molecules at the same temperature into a (slightly) smaller volume, the pressure will increase.
 
I still don't understand why, physically, this happens. (A part from the math).

What i think is that, since the molecules has a certain volume, the have less space to move in the container, so they collide with each other (and with the walls) more frequently. Is this correct ?
 
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