Perpetual Motion Disease

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  • #26
lisab
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You are a good and kind person. The above description is the kind of thing that has inspired me to have patience with many people on this forum. When I've shot people down for their ignorance it tends to just makes them try harder. But with some compassion and patience, I like to think they come away with a bit of knowledge.
I, too, was impressed by Q_Goest's understanding and patience.

I've learned the hard way that those suffering from PMD really, really don't want to hear a woman tell them their idea won't work - quelle horreur! Well clearly my sampling is biased since I've never told anyone that as a man :tongue2:.

Gender issues aside, now I just say, "You should build a prototype to see if it works!" At least that way, the local hardware store gets something out of it.
 
  • #27
Q_Goest
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You are a good and kind person. The above description is the kind of thing that has inspired me to have patience with many people on this forum. When I've shot people down for their ignorance it tends to just makes them try harder. But with some compassion and patience, I like to think they come away with a bit of knowledge.
thanks...
 
  • #28
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I'm a tad taken aback by the tone of some in this thread. It's not a mental disorder to want to make a breakthrough in science. Being stubborn about it isn't justification to be treated with disrespect by someone with knowledge in the field.

I suppose any of you would direct this level of scorn toward Issac Newton because he was trying to turn lead into gold?

How many of you have a hobby where you're not good at it but enthusiastic about it?

Should you mock people having fun overclocking and crashing their computers because they're violating the design rules of the computer?

Lighten up. Failing to make PPM machines is fun and a good way to learn physics. If it irritates you, pass these folks on to more patient people.
 
  • #29
DaveC426913
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... the tone of some in this thread.
... this level of scorn...
..be treated with disrespect...
:confused:
I would say the lion's share of posts have been understanding and sympathetic (and, granted, frustrated too). OK, a couple of people took some light-hearted shots at PPM-chasers in general - but scorn, disrespect?

Some PPM-chasers are crazy. Do you suggest we must treat all people with respect regardless of how much they refuse to learn the basics of physics?

Failing to make PPM machines is fun and a good way to learn physics.
Yes, it is. If someone is there to guide these people. The problem with 99% of people who try to make PPMs is that they aren't learning physics; they attempt to defy it.


BTW, I see a distinction between the tone about individuals and the tone about a general group of people.
 
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  • #30
OmCheeto
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And just for the record, I do believe in over-unity. :rolleyes:


input electrical energy: 24 watts * 3.5 hours = 0.084 kwh
collected thermal energy: 2.3 kwh
yield: 27.4 times over unity

When in doubt, cheat. Kobayashi Maru! :biggrin:
 
  • #31
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Sure some are crazy. So are many homeless people. The level of disrespect they get should depend on their ill conduct, not on their lack of technical knowledge.
 
  • #32
DaveC426913
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Sure some are crazy. So are many homeless people. The level of disrespect they get should depend on their ill conduct, not on their lack of technical knowledge.
So, point to someone here who violated that.
 
  • #33
fluidistic
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Trust me, once they get started discussing it, they never ever stop.
Ahahahah!!!!
 
  • #36
OmCheeto
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hmm... That reminds me of something I saw just moments ago.....

forever.gif

"It may be perpetual motion, but it will take forever to test it."
Cartoon by Donald Simanek.​


from mgb_phys's aforementioned link
 
  • #37
chiro
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Yes, it is. If someone is there to guide these people. The problem with 99% of people who try to make PPMs is that they aren't learning physics; they attempt to defy it.
Regardless of their intentions of whether they are just curious or whether they just want to prove somebody else wrong and then show everyone else how smart they are and how dumb everyone else is, I still consider it a good exercise none the less.

Sure a lot of people might say they are 'wasting their time', but if that's what they want to use it on, I say good for them.

Also I'm a little surprised about the comment that the person wouldn't learn physics. I mean after all they are doing experiments aren't they in building these machines? Even if the experiments aren't as controlled as you would find in a university lab, and even if they didn't understand all of the calculus and so on, why would you think that the person wouldn't learn about physics?

I would say that they would learn a hell of a lot about physics don't you think? If they spent that much time and that much effort I absolutely gaurantee that they would learn at least something.

To say the opposite is rather condescending, and suggests a little bit of ignorance. Whether they end up failing or not is irrelevant to the learning issue.
 
  • #38
DaveC426913
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Regardless of their intentions of whether they are just curious or whether they just want to prove somebody else wrong and then show everyone else how smart they are and how dumb everyone else is, I still consider it a good exercise none the less.

Sure a lot of people might say they are 'wasting their time', but if that's what they want to use it on, I say good for them.

Also I'm a little surprised about the comment that the person wouldn't learn physics. I mean after all they are doing experiments aren't they in building these machines? Even if the experiments aren't as controlled as you would find in a university lab, and even if they didn't understand all of the calculus and so on, why would you think that the person wouldn't learn about physics?

I would say that they would learn a hell of a lot about physics don't you think? If they spent that much time and that much effort I absolutely gaurantee that they would learn at least something.

To say the opposite is rather condescending, and suggests a little bit of ignorance. Whether they end up failing or not is irrelevant to the learning issue.
They would learn mechanics, yes, and certainly some physics. But PPMs are all about energy transfer and work. If they did learn the physics involved, they would come to realize why the PPM is flawed in principle, and drop it.

It is the ones who pursue it without cessation who have not learned the relevant physics, and in fact must actively deny it when put in front of them.

i.e. actually learning physics by building PPMs is a negative feedback process. "The more you do it, the more you'll stop." :biggrin:
 
  • #39
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i.e. actually learning physics by building PPMs is a negative feedback process. "The more you do it, the more you'll stop." :biggrin:

Haha. And if the system is just (not) right, it can still act unstable and grow positively, even with negative feedback present. That's when it maybe is a disease :P

But I agree that there is something comendable about PMM designers interest and determination, and "disease" is a bad term for their obsession. Its only when they are actively fooling themselves and others that I disrespect it. I don't mind a person trying to find and design a PMM, I think that's a noble effort. When they have a system and they find the physical reasoning for why it will never be a PMM and still try to fool themselves and others, they are not learning physics and only hurting it.
 
  • #40
russ_watters
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Don't I know that...

retrieving two empty tuna fish cans from the recycle bin: 90 seconds
finding hammer and nail to poke holes in cans: 90 seconds
pulling [STRIKE]neo-neptunian[/STRIKE], [STRIKE]neobdinium[/STRIKE], rare earth magnets off of 'fridge: 30 seconds
putting it all together: 360 seconds
time to realize what was going on in the "iron plate / magnetic attractor": 3 seconds
taking pictures, transferring data, etc: 1 hour 30 minutes

time it took PF to lock the thread: 1 hour 35 minutes

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=329636
Kudos for doing the test. Fyi, this device was posted again in the past few weeks. I'll see if I can find it...
 
  • #41
russ_watters
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Regardless of their intentions of whether they are just curious or whether they just want to prove somebody else wrong and then show everyone else how smart they are and how dumb everyone else is, I still consider it a good exercise none the less.

Sure a lot of people might say they are 'wasting their time', but if that's what they want to use it on, I say good for them.

Also I'm a little surprised about the comment that the person wouldn't learn physics. I mean after all they are doing experiments aren't they in building these machines? Even if the experiments aren't as controlled as you would find in a university lab, and even if they didn't understand all of the calculus and so on, why would you think that the person wouldn't learn about physics?
My experience is:
1. They aren't interested in learning.
2. They don't build, much less test their devices.

So all they do is cling violently to whatever misconception got them there.
 
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  • #42
chiro
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My experience is:
1. They aren't interested in learning.
2. They don't build, much less test their devices.

So all they do is cling violently to whatever misconception got them there.
I gaurantee you're right in that some (perhaps the majority) are this way, but don't paint everybody with the same brush.

If they aren't actually building the devices and testing them, then I wouldn't really say that they are actually doing what they state anyway since working with the "PPM's" or any similar device requires you to come up with some machine whether it works or not, in a physical form. Absolutely agree on that point.

I'm not a physicist by any means just to get it out there, but if someone showed me something that did what they said, and it physically existed, and I could look at it and pull it apart and see that it really did what it did, I would pay attention.

I wouldn't invest in the technology, I wouldn't claim that the guy broke the laws of physics, and I wouldn't even claim that it does exactly what the person says it does in the principles that they say it does but I would still pay enough attention to learn something and to me, this is an important attribute of any scientist.
 
  • #43
DaveC426913
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I gaurantee you're right in that some (perhaps the majority) are this way, but don't paint everybody with the same brush.
Nobody is painting everyone with the same brush. The only ones we are painting are the ones that actually get in our faces and won't leave.

By definition, the ones that aren't crazy either
- don't beat the rest of us to death with their ideas, or
- realize their error and move on.

Either way, we are talking about the ones we do encounter, the crazies.
 
  • #44
OmCheeto
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I'm not a physicist by any means just to get it out there, but if someone showed me something that did what they said, and it physically existed, and I could look at it and pull it apart and see that it really did what it did, I would pay attention.

I wouldn't invest in the technology, ....
You don't have to invest! You just have to go to the USPTO after watching the amazing HOJO* video and following their instructions to look at the fully patented MAGNETIC PROPULSION SYSTEM!

I looked at the image, and could build a prototype device in about 17 minutes. (nails, neodymium magnets, one matchbox car) Doesn't everyone have those things lying around the house? I do! If you're CRAZY, you can pay the $49.97 for the amazing instructional video. BUT WHY WASTE THAT MONEY! When you can just go to the United States Patent and Trademark Office, and get the whole thing for, can you believe it, FREE!

The other two patents are #4,877,983(issued on halloween. snicker... magnets and a matchbox car again) & #4,151,431(boring! not PM at all... wait... looking at the images. ah! hahahaha!)

Too lazy to click on all those links? HERE! We'll do it for you!

pf.patented.perpetual.f.in.motion...gotta.lov.it.jpg


I'm now exhausted from laughing. Must go now. My apologies to the serious people lounging around in GD.



*kook link disabled due to kook links being not allowed here. o:)
 
  • #45
Q_Goest
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There are specific behaviors demonstrated by a small group of people that defies all logic. PMD is very similar to gambling for instance, where the victim has the urge to keep gambling irresponsibly.

We’ve all seen the folks with PMD. They are told exactly why their ideas won’t work and sometimes they even understand, but like a gambler, they go right back at it and do it again and again! That’s PMD. In the gambling world, they call it something else. But it’s real. Ralf doesn’t have it, he understood and accepted the logic but you could see it was starting to get hold of him. I think it’s just as neglectful to not recognize it as some kind of disorder just like gambling.

By the way, OmCheeto posted this and the guy isn’t hard to find. If you look, you’ll also find many others that actually believe in his ideas (not to mention having their own ideas about PM) - and I seriously don’t think they’re simply scammers. They really believe in the validity of PM. They’re providing details of their ideas… and not asking for money! I don’t think any logic or evidence in the world will convince this guy that his idea is wrong, and that is what PMD is.

I almost met one once. In that eX-Filed forum I discussed earlier, someone brought together the fact that pistons of different sizes, under the same pressure, would have different net forces applied. So he proposed sinking his device into the ocean to generate huge amounts of free energy. I looked at his drawing and told him that it would work through one cycle and then stop. I also told him that I had a fish tank into which I could submerge a mini-model and prove this. He said it would only work if it were submerged under hundreds, perhaps thousands of feet of water. So I asked him if he required financial assistance for such a huge venture. He of course said yes, at which point I stopped conversing with him.

But I did google his name*, and discovered he lived only a few miles away from me. I now avoid that section of town like the plague......

*He was so confident in his idea, he gave out his real name.
Gads. Googling the concept and my town, still lists him on page 1.
How could I have forgotten that name....
OMG! His invention has it's own Wiki entry!
"A prototype [top secret name] has yet to be built, but several scientists and engineers[who?] have attested to the validity of the [top secret] concept.[citation needed] Conceptual drawings are available.[doodle]"​
I feel really special now.
ps: I say this with tounge in cheek... but only a little bit. :smile:
 
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  • #46
russ_watters
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I gaurantee you're right in that some (perhaps the majority) are this way, but don't paint everybody with the same brush.
Please note, there is a selection bias at work here which cause the vast majority of our encounters to be negative:

Those who are willing to learn learn quickly since the issues here are high scool level simple. So such people fall out of sight quickly.
 
  • #47
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There are specific behaviors demonstrated by a small group of people that defies all logic. PMD is very similar to gambling for instance, where the victim has the urge to keep gambling irresponsibly.
This isn't specific to perpetual motion devices but applies to all invention. The "disease" you describe is nowhere more evident than in the biographies of people like Edison and Tesla, who were addicted to the pursuit of the ground breaking, world changing, invention that would make them rich and famous. The fact they both did invent some remarkable things just made their addiction worse and they both lost much more money pushing their unsuccessful inventions than they ever made with their successful ones. Just like gamblers who win big at the start and keep betting long past the point where their initial winnings are depleted, they both wasted the last half of their lives trying to recreate the success of the first half and failing.

Invention is very much like gold-fever. There's the perception that there are untold fortunes and a place in History to be made with the right invention. A device that produces more energy than it takes to operate is the Holy Grail and also a kind of preliminary filter that catches and holds all the rank morons. It's not a disease unto itself, just a part of the larger fame-and-fortune seeking that lures all inventors, just like the rumor of gold has always lured people into all kinds of hardship and financial calamity.
 
  • #48
DaveC426913
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Please note, there is a selection bias at work here which cause the vast majority of our encounters to be negative:

Those who are willing to learn learn quickly since the issues here are high scool level simple. So such people fall out of sight quickly.
More eloquent than the way I expressed it.
 
  • #49
lisab
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I'm not a physicist by any means just to get it out there, but if someone showed me something that did what they said, and it physically existed, and I could look at it and pull it apart and see that it really did what it did, I would pay attention.
Re the bolded text: oh definitely, if someone presented me with a PMM that appeared to work, I'd want to get a veeeery close look at it, too. And that's the rub. The PMM people have told me about *don't* exist. I've even had one guy ask me to build a prototype of his idea for him! Lol, yeah right, I'll get right on that....
 
  • #50
russ_watters
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This isn't specific to perpetual motion devices but applies to all invention. The "disease" you describe is nowhere more evident than in the biographies of people like Edison and Tesla, who were addicted to the pursuit of the ground breaking, world changing, invention that would make them rich and famous. The fact they both did invent some remarkable things just made their addiction worse and they both lost much more money pushing their unsuccessful inventions than they ever made with their successful ones. Just like gamblers who win big at the start and keep betting long past the point where their initial winnings are depleted, they both wasted the last half of their lives trying to recreate the success of the first half and failing.
Inventionitis is a necessary component of PMD, but PMD goes further. The difference is that for Inventionitis, the prospective inventor may or may not realize or be willing to realize that what they are trying to do violates the laws of physics. If they do, they just have Inventionitis. If they don't, they may also have PMD.
 

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