Schools Physics Grad School Without a Bachelor's: Is It Possible?

[ralqs]

Is it possible to get into a physics grad program without a bachelor's?

 

[Pengwuino]

I've never heard of such a thing...

 

[chiro]

Is it possible to get into a physics grad program without a bachelor's?

I'm not sure for physics but for math recently there was a guy who did his Masters at some university and then did his PhD at Princeton. (Name I think is Arie Israel).

It is possible but certainly not common: my guess is if you wanted to do that, you would have to sit some sort of standardized exam like the Physics GRE and maybe even a set of inhouse exams.

I should mention one more point though: math is not like the physical sciences: you can't learn experimental science from a textbook: you need to mix chemicals, blow **** up, set the building on fire etc to learn the physical sciences. Its like driving a car, you won't be an expert on your first lab and you're not expected to be one on your first lab.

I think you also have to realize how hard even undergraduate physics is. I'm not saying you can't do it by yourself, but the odds that you can are for the most part stacked against you. Can you say what kind of stuff you've done already?

 

[fss]

Not in any reputable program.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You're a freshman in college - what is the problem with finishing and then going to grad school the "regular way"?

 

[Phyisab****]

Maybe if you are universally recognized as a child prodigy.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Maybe if you are universally recognized as a child prodigy.

Isn't everybody in physics?

 

[Reshma]

The OP's question doesn't make any sense, not even in exceptional cases. A Bachelor's degree is one of the minimum requirements for graduate admission.

 

[eri]

Isn't everybody in physics?

Hell no. Some of us were just good students who worked hard, but didn't skip any steps along the way.

 

[Phyisab****]

The OP's question doesn't make any sense, not even in exceptional cases. A Bachelor's degree is one of the minimum requirements for graduate admission.

I don't know the truth of it, but I remember reading that when Stephen Wolfram entered Oxford, he decided after the first day he already knew everything in his freshman classes. So he jumped to junior level physics classes. He still found these classes less than stimulating and basically decided he didn't want to attend the university. After that he was admitted to Caltech as a PhD student without a bachelors, I believe when he was still 18.

I think that was the rough idea, I could be wrong.

 

[Reshma]

I don't know the truth of it, but I remember reading that when Stephen Wolfram entered Oxford, he decided after the first day he already knew everything in his freshman classes. So he jumped to junior level physics classes. He still found these classes less than stimulating and basically decided he didn't want to attend the university. After that he was admitted to Caltech as a PhD student without a bachelors, I believe when he was still 18.

I think that was the rough idea, I could be wrong.

I did some googling on Stephen Wolfram, I agree, it is quite amazing that he completed his PhD at 20. But it is still unclear to me whether he was awarded the Bachelor's degree by Oxford if he had fulfilled the requirements for the degree.
http://www.stephenwolfram.com/about-sw/

In general, most graduate programmes do mention "contingent upon graduating with your bachelor's degree" for admission.

 

[ralqs]

Thanks for the answers -- the reason I asked is that schooling is becoming expensive, and I happen to have access to a lot of textbooks for free; if I could self-study and avoid having to do a Bachelor's, it would have been very convenient.

 

[Chunkysalsa]

There is a lot more you learn in college than what is printed in textbooks.

 

[story645]

the reason I asked is that schooling is becoming expensive.

What about transferring to a cheaper school?

I'm not sure for physics but for math recently there was a guy who did his Masters at some university and then did his PhD at Princeton. (Name I think is Arie Israel).

He completed most/all? the coursework for an undergrad at http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2006/09/14/15761/ then picked up a masters instead. Most child prodigies do something of the sort, get their degrees at random state schools 'cause state schools will take them without having a high school degree and 'cause it's near their parents.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Hell no. Some of us were just good students who worked hard, but didn't skip any steps along the way.

Sorry Eri, my humor was probably not evident in my post. There is a general unspoken sort of myth that you have to be some kind of prodigy to be involved in physics. I certainly am not one. Certainly, if there is a slow track to physics (half a music degree, 13 years off of school and then back again) then I'm on it.

-DaveKA

 

[NobodySpecial]

Yes at least in Cambridge - you can get onto a maths PhD with a part-III (essentially an MSc in maths) there is no formal requirement for an ugrad degree to do part III. It's quite common, especially for foreign students who might have a different ugrad structure, although they are likely to have done the years of coursework in an ugrad degree - just not graduated from one.

There are also a few home schooled child maths prodigies who produce a PhD as their first work.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

The only person I know of who skipped undergraduate studies and entered graduate school for physics is John Moffat.

 

[ralqs]

There is a lot more you learn in college than what is printed in textbooks.

Like what, other than labs?

 

[ralqs]

What about transferring to a cheaper school?

There cheaper schools near me all have really bad physics programs, so I would end up having to teach myself a lot of the material anyways.

 

[Phyisab****]

Like what, other than labs?

Discipline, time management, preparation, humility, how to handle being made to feel like an idiot all the time, how to not be afraid to look like an idiot, and how to deal with people who are insufferable socially inept jerks who have complete power over you.

 

[Pengwuino]

Like what, other than labs?

Some (many?) textbooks are god awful. You also can't ask the author any questions.

Would you fly on a plane piloted by someone who never took flying lessons, they only read all the books?

 

[Pengwuino]

Discipline, time management, preparation, humility, how to handle being made to feel like an idiot all the time, how to not be afraid to look like an idiot, and how to deal with people who are insufferable socially inept jerks who have complete power over you.

Ah yes, the trademark of a student.

 

[ralqs]

Some (many?) textbooks are god awful. You also can't ask the author any questions.

That's why physics forums exists :) And while textbooks can be terrible, professors are worse. I have had maybe one or two profs who did more than regurgitate the textbook. And if you shop around, you can find excellent texts for any subject.

Would you fly on a plane piloted by someone who never took flying lessons, they only read all the books?

To be fair, it's not the same thing at all. Piloting a plane takes physical skill and familiarity with an airplane, something which only comes about after experience with flying.

If you read a text and do the problems at the end of the chapter, what are you missing out on? Certainly it's no different than attending lectures and doing the problem sets?

 

[Pengwuino]

That's why physics forums exists :) And while textbooks can be terrible, professors are worse. I have had maybe one or two profs who did more than regurgitate the textbook. And if you shop around, you can find excellent texts for any subject.

The forum only goes so far. Maybe your first year of studies can be pretty easily helped by this forum. When you get into upper division work, you start having multi-day waits for responses to problems.

To be fair, it's not the same thing at all. Piloting a plane takes physical skill and familiarity with an airplane, something which only comes about after experience with flying.

If you read a text and do the problems at the end of the chapter, what are you missing out on? Certainly it's no different than attending lectures and doing the problem sets?

Ah, but it IS the same. There IS something you get out of interacting with other students and professors and the resources a college has to offer that you simply can't get out of a textbook. You miss out on all the tricks, the context, and the techniques that you get out of interacting with other people doing the work or who have far more experience then you. I doubt you'll find a person on this forum who could have learned physics all on their lonesome in a similarly efficient manner.

 

[Chunkysalsa]

Discipline, time management, preparation, humility, how to handle being made to feel like an idiot all the time, how to not be afraid to look like an idiot, and how to deal with people who are insufferable socially inept jerks who have complete power over you.

This is exactly what I meant. Forced to learn and work under difficult conditions is exactly what a degree shows to your future employer.

 

[eri]

I don't think anyone mentioned research, but that's a major part of any grad school application, and one you cannot get if you're not enrolled in a college or university (to work with professors there and to apply for research internships elsewhere). Grad school is about doing research - and that's not the same as taking classes. It's a different skill set, and you want to know if you're any good at it (and enjoy it) long before applying to grad schools.