News Poverty Rate in US Rises to 12.7 Percent

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The U.S. poverty rate rose to 12.7 percent in 2004, marking the fourth consecutive annual increase, with 37 million people living in poverty, an increase of 1.1 million from the previous year. Despite this rise, the percentage of uninsured individuals remained unchanged, and the unemployment rate held steady at 5%. Discussions highlighted the potential for the poverty rate to decline in the future due to improvements in the job market, although concerns were raised about the economic stability of households relying on risky mortgages. Critics pointed out that the poverty thresholds used in statistics are low compared to global standards, suggesting that the actual number of people in poverty may be underestimated. The conversation reflected a mix of political perspectives, with some attributing the rise in poverty to broader economic policies and others questioning the validity of the statistics presented.
  • #91
Art said:
Such a simple idea; I'm surprised nobody has tried it :rolleyes:

The west came close in the 19th century hence the vast rise in prosperity in that century.

As for a modern example, Reagan and Thatcher relaxed the regulations on business, making US and UK more capitalist and bringing them out from the economic slump.
 
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  • #92
sid_galt said:
The west came close in the 19th century hence the vast rise in prosperity in that century.

As for a modern example, Reagan and Thatcher relaxed the regulations on business, making US and UK more capitalist and bringing them out from the economic slump.
You are joking; aren't you? There was massive poverty in the 19th century. As just one of many, many examples of the effects of capitalism during the 19th century, in my own country Ireland, over 2 million died of starvation during a famine directly attributable to capitalism. In a country with a population of 8 million they were producing enough food to feed 12 million but the English landowners exported the food for sale abroad to maximise profits.
 
  • #93
russ_watters said:
- the military is a great equalizer and the bottom line is that people have an equal chance to prove themselves regardless of their reasons for being there.
True, and I like this idea.

So for the first time in their life for many who are poor, all of their basic self maintenance needs are met. Their time is structured and they have an opportunity in their life that until they enlisted they never had.

russ_watters said:
Liberal=Generous with money that isn't theirs.
Your opinion, not a definition.

russ_watters said:
Conservative=Won't steal your hard-earned money.
And Kenny Boy was what ideology?

But, that also leads nowhere.

My grandfather, a Sgt in WWII, shot in the chest during the "Battle of the Bulge", lifelong republican, explained these terms to me. I don't have a problem with conservative ideology at all. I have a problem with how it has been hi-jacked.

russ_watters said:
The military structure breeds conservatives. The difference? The military is set up to start with absolute equality at a zero-point and reward performance. That is a conservative philosophy. A military run on liberal philosophy would have no enlisted ranks, just paint-chipping Lieutenants making $30,000 a year.
It is a military philosophy, and it works in a military environment. You also have a rigid code of ethics and a system of rank. You cannot apply this to a free society.

The German society became incredibly efficient, creative, and productive under Hitler. I hope you are not suggesting that.

russ_watters said:
The military does, of course, indoctrinate you into its system, so technically it could be considered propaganda, except for the fact that everyone is there voluntarily. Regardless, the system works extraordinarily well and produces some spectacular successes such as the one I described in a previous post.
Considered propaganda?

Come on Russ, you know better than that.

So why does it work?

Not because of ideology, but because it creates an environment for people to succeed. Not in a material way, it provides an opportunity for people to grow personally.

I agree with most of what you say about a conservative philosophy. I believe we can take this basic premise of the military and apply it to society on the whole. But first society must provide all the essential infrastructure and support system to provide for the self maintenance needs of each individual.

As long as the attempt to structure the society, to provide for the self maintenance needs of all it's citizens is labeled Socialism or Communism, then society will remain as it is.

Somewhere in between generous and stingy, there is a balance.
 
  • #94
sid_galt said:
My definition is from the Oxford English Dictionary. Although it is useful, the wikipedia cannot be considered an authoritative source on any subject as anyone can edit it.
Merriam-Webster Online
Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
I get the impression?? you think propaganda is a negative term by your objection to it's use to describe the indoctrination used in the US armed forces, but it is not.
 
  • #95
Art said:
You are joking; aren't you? There was massive poverty in the 19th century.

Take it into context. Before the Industrial Revolution, what existed was kings and knights with feudal serfs underneath them who lived under the worst of the conditions.
Capitalism and the Industrial Revolution remarkably raised the standard of living and brought us to our current state of prosperity. But no matter how good, even they couldn't have lifted the whole world out of poverty immediately especially when various degrees of government control still existed.

Art said:
As just one of many, many examples of the effects of capitalism during the 19th century, in my own country Ireland, over 2 million died of starvation during a famine directly attributable to capitalism. In a country with a population of 8 million they were producing enough food to feed 12 million but the English landowners exported the food for sale abroad to maximise profits.

Since I do not know of the specific circumstances in this case, I cannot comment on the situation. What I do know is that while Capitalism has made millions rich and brought billions out of poverty, its antithesis, communism has killed millions and a complete mixture of the two brought England and US's economy to a halt by the 70s.
 
  • #96
Art said:
I get the impression?? you think propaganda is a negative term by your objection to it's use to describe the indoctrination used in the US armed forces, but it is not.

The definition you posted specifically refers to propaganda as a dissemination of ideas to help or injure something or somebody. The military isn't an organization to disseminate ideas but training.
 
  • #97
Art,
I have done some reading on the Irish famine.

From what I have read, the main cause of the famine was the extreme poverty of the Irish people due to the coming of the machine age.

However, after reading a bit more, IMO it was not the machine age which caused the poverty of the Irish people. After all, if a person in Britain could set up a factory, why couldn't a person in Ireland?

From what I have read, the extreme poverty of the Irish came about because they were left with very little land which was a direct consequence of the Penal Laws imposed by the British.

I wouldn't be so hasty in blaming capitalism for the Irish famine when it is likely that government intervention was much more to blame.
 
  • #98
russ_watters: Liberal=Generous with money that isn't theirs.
Ooooh, so Bush is a liberal? His spending is becoming a record.
 
  • #99
sid_galt said:
Art,
I have done some reading on the Irish famine.

From what I have read, the main cause of the famine was the extreme poverty of the Irish people due to the coming of the machine age.

However, after reading a bit more, IMO it was not the machine age which caused the poverty of the Irish people. After all, if a person in Britain could set up a factory, why couldn't a person in Ireland?
Yes, It was a hanging offence to teach an Irish person to read and write never mind have one open a factory. :smile:

sid_galt said:
From what I have read, the extreme poverty of the Irish came about because they were left with very little land which was a direct consequence of the Penal Laws imposed by the British.
The penal laws barred Catholics from the army and navy, the law, commerce, and from every civic activity. No Catholic could vote, hold any office under the Crown, or purchase land, and Catholic estates were dismembered by an enactment directing that at the death of a Catholic owner his land was to be divided among all his sons, unless the eldest became a Protestant, when he would inherit the whole. Education was made almost impossible, since Catholics might not attend schools, nor keep schools, nor send their children to be educated abroad. The practice of the Catholic faith was proscribed; sinforming was encouraged as 'an honorable service' and priest-hunting treated as a sport.

Such were the main provisions of the Penal Code, described by Edmund Burke as 'a machine as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a people, and the debasement in them of human nature itself, as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man'.
Yes and so the Irish in Ireland were tenant farmers for their English masters who during the famine years took the opportunity to evict the Irish from their small-holdings for non-payment of rent (rents which the landlords increased to make up for any shortfall they suffered from the effects of the potato blight;
When there was widespread criticism in the English newspapers over the evictions, Lord Broughman made a speech on March 23rd, 1846 in the House of Lords. He said: Undoubtedly it is the landlord's right to do as he pleases, and if he abstained he conferred a favor and was doing an act of kindness. If, on the other hand, he choose to stand on his right, the tenants must be taught by the strong arm of the law that they had no power to oppose or resist...property would be valueless and capital would no longer be invested in cultivation of the land if it were not acknowledged that it was the landlord's undoubted and most sacred right to deal with his property as he wished."

Even when tenants were evicted in the dead of winter and died of exposure, the British Home Secretary, Sir George Grey, "rejected the notion that house-destroying landlords were open to any criminal proceedings on the part of the government."

British Parliament passed a law reducing the notice given to people before they were evicted to 48 hours. The law also made it a misdemeanor to demolish a dwelling while the tenants were inside. As a grand gesture of goodwill, the law prohibited evictions on Christmas day and Good Friday.

On January 23rd, 1846, Mr. Todhunter, a member of the Central Relief Committee of the Society of Friends wrote: "It is evident that some landlords, forgetful of the claims of humanity and regardless of the Public Welfare, are availing themselves of the present calamity to effect a wholesale clearance of their estates."
However Englands torture of Ireland long pre-dates the famine
In 1571 Queen Elizabeth ordered that no cloth or stuff made in Ireland could be exported, even to England, except by English men in Ireland. The act was amended in 1663 to prohibit the use of all foreign-going ships, except those that were built in England, mastered and three-fourths manned by English, and cleared from English ports. The return cargoes had to be unloaded in England. Ireland's shipbuilding industry was thus destroyed and her trade with the Continent wiped out.

TRADE WITH THE COLONIES
Ireland then began a lucrative trade with the Colonies. That was "cured" in 1670 by a new law which forbade Ireland to export to the colonies "anything except horses, servants, and victuals." England followed with a decree that no Colonial products could be landed in Ireland until they had first landed in England and paid all English rates and duties.

Ireland was forbidden to engage in trade with the colonies and plantations of the New World if it involved sugar, tobacco, cotton, wool, rice, and numerous other items. The only item left for Ireland to import was rum. The English wanted to help English rum makers in the West Indies at the expense of Irish farmers and distillers.

IRISH WOOL TRADE CURTAILED, THEN DESTROYED
When the Irish were forbidden to export their sheep, they began a thriving trade in wool. In 1634 The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Lord Stafford, wrote to King Charles I: "All wisdom advises us to keep this (Irish) kingdom as much subordinate and dependent on England as possible; and, holding them from manufacture of wool (which unless otherwise directed, I shall by all means discourage), and then enforcing them to fetch their cloth from England, how can they depart from us without nakedness and beggary?"

In 1660 even the export of wool from Ireland to England was forbidden. Other English laws prohibited all exports of Irish wool in any form. In 1673, Sir William Temple advised that the Irish would act wisely by giving up the manufacture of wool even for home use, because "it tended to interfere prejudicially with the English woolen trade."

George II sent three warships and eight other armed vessels to cruise off the coast of Ireland to seize all vessels carrying woolens from Ireland. "So ended the fairest promise that Ireland had ever known of becoming a prosperous and a happy country."

LINEN TRADE REPRESSED
Irish linen manufacturing met with the same fate when the Irish were forbidden to export their product to all other countries except England. A thirty percent duty was levied in England, effectively prohibiting the trade. English manufacturers, on the other hand, were granted a bounty for all linen exports.

BEEF, PORK, BUTTER AND CHEESE
In 1665 Irish cattle were no longer welcome in England, so the Irish began killing them and exporting the meat. King Charles II declared that the importation of cattle, sheep, swine and beef from Ireland was henceforth a common nuisance, and forbidden. Pork and bacon were soon prohibited, followed by butter and cheese.

SILK AND TOBACCO
In the middle of the 18th century, Ireland began developing a silk weaving industry. Britain imposed a heavy duty on Irish silk, but British manufactured silk was admitted to Ireland duty-free. Ireland attempted to develop her tobacco industry, but that too was prohibited.

FISH
In 1819 England withdrew the subsidy for Irish fisheries and increased the subsidies to British fishermen - with the result that Ireland's possession of one of the longest coastlines in Europe, still left it with one of the most miserable fisheries.

GLASS
Late in the 18th century the Irish became known for their manufacture of glass. George II forbade the Irish to export glass to any country whatsoever under penalty of forfeiting ship, cargo and ten shillings per pound weight.

THE RESULT
By 1839, a French visitor to Ireland, Gustave de Beaumont, was able to write:

"In all countries, more or less, paupers may be discovered; but an entire nation of paupers is what was never seen until it was shown in Ireland. To explain the social condition of such a country, it would be only necessary to recount its miseries and its sufferings; the history of the poor is the history of Ireland."

sid_galt said:
I wouldn't be so hasty in blaming capitalism for the Irish famine when it is likely that government intervention was much more to blame.
The Irish famine was a direct consequence of the British government's strict adherence to the principles of capitalism i.e. non-intervention to market forces. The food produced was sold to the highest bidders who unfortunately were not the Irish as they didn't have money to pay for it.

So as you can see capitalism is very definitely not the solution to poverty. :smile:
 
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  • #100
Art said:
The Irish famine was a direct consequence of the British government's strict adherence to the principles of capitalism i.e. non-intervention to market forces. The food produced was sold to the highest bidders who unfortunately were not the Irish as they didn't have money to pay for it.

And why did the Irish not have money to pay for it? Because of early government intervention in the economy and the market which left the Irish unable to compete with the British

Art said:
So as you can see capitalism is very definitely not the solution to poverty. :smile:

No as you can see, it was the government intervention in the markets which was to blame for the extreme poverty and the subsequent famine. If the British had left the Irish free to compete, they would not have fallen into such levels of poverty.
 
  • #101
sid_galt said:
And why did the Irish not have money to pay for it? Because of early government intervention in the economy and the market which left the Irish unable to compete with the British
The conflict perspective would explain that government intervention was a tool of capitalism. Markets in England used the English government to gain advantages over Ireland, which resulted in their subsequent poverty, and more money for the English. The government was merely an extension of the people of England, who were competing in global markets.
 
  • #102
Smurf,

what you are describing (government intervention in the market to favor certain individuals) is an element of fascism and statism, not capitalism.

Capitalism means no government intervention in the markets.
 
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  • #103
sid_galt said:
And why did the Irish not have money to pay for it? Because of early government intervention in the economy and the market which left the Irish unable to compete with the British



No as you can see, it was the government intervention in the markets which was to blame for the extreme poverty and the subsequent famine. If the British had left the Irish free to compete, they would not have fallen into such levels of poverty.
With unregulated capitalism you get what we have today. Those with the most capital have the most influence on government. So when government interferes, it does so in favor of the capitalists who keep them in power.

A good example is the recently passed bankruptcy bill. Written by the banking lobby and "shopped" to the legislature.

The last bill that came before President Clinton was that bankruptcy bill that was passed by the House and the Senate in 2000 and he vetoed it. And in her autobiography, Mrs. Clinton took credit for that veto and she rightly should. She turned around a whole administration on the subject of bankruptcy. She got it.

MOYERS: And then?

WARREN: One of the first bills that came up after she was Senator Clinton was the bankruptcy bill. This is a bill that's like a vampire. It will not die. Right? There's a lot of money behind it, and it…

MOYERS: Bill, her husband, who vetoed…

WARREN: Her husband had vetoed it very much at her urging.

MOYERS: And?

WARREN: She voted in favor of it.

MOYERS: Why?

WARREN: As Senator Clinton, the pressures are very different. It's a well-financed industry. You know a lot of people don't realize that the industry that gave the most money to Washington over the past few years was not the oil industry, was not pharmaceuticals. It was consumer credit products. Those are the people. The credit card companies have been giving money, and they have influence.

MOYERS: And Mrs. Clinton was one of them as Senator.

WARREN: She has taken money from the groups, and more to the point, she worries about them as a constituency.
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript306_full.html
 
  • #104
Skyhunter said:
Great link - so Hillary is going Republican? :biggrin:

ANNOUNCER: Tonight on NOW WITH BILL MOYERS: Why are so many middle class families going broke?

WARREN: The middle class has been pushed right to the edge. They are on a cliff. And increasing numbers are falling off every single day.

ANNOUNCER: Elizabeth Warren on the two-income trap. A Bill Moyers interview.

And, on the eve of the next round of caucuses, David Brancaccio reports from the front lines of the jobless recovery.

MIKE HUCKLEBERRY: People don't understand. They're angry and they're frustrated and they don't understand why our government would allow this to happen.

ANNOUNCER: And Congress has become the millionaire's club.

STRUBBLE: If you can't raise enough money to play in the game and get on television with a lot of ratings point, you have a very low chance of winning.

ANNOUNCER: TV ads and the commercialization of democracy.

And grassroots politics where the party is just getting started.

BRANCACCIO: Welcome to NOW.

For Americans at the top, the news seems all good. The economy in the last quarter expanded by 4 percent. The stock market is up 40 percent over the past 15 months. Big profits are back on Wall Street, and this week, the WALL STREET JOURNAL is chronicling how high flyers are spending their lavish year-end bonuses on things like Lamborghinis and weddings at the palace of Versailles.

Now, step down the ladder a few rungs, and life looks quite a bit different.

MOYERS: It was summed up for me in a five-word sentence in the NEW YORK TIMES, "Family finances are being stretched." The story goes on to chronicle a prolonged borrowing spree in America: families piling on debt to buy homes, charging new computers to their credit cards and driving new cars bought on dealer credit, and renovating their houses with home equity loans. The result is a doubling of household debt since 1990.

Political candidates take note — we're not making this up — there's an invisible crisis building out there. By the end of this decade, says a new book, nearly one of every seven families in America with children may have declared itself flat broke. This year alone, more people will end up bankrupt than will suffer a heart attack. And more people will file for bankruptcy than will graduate from college.

For desperate Americans, it's scary. Look what happened in the Washington, DC area this week when WKYS, a hip-hop/R&B radio station, ran a contest offering to pay the winners' overdue bills.

DJ: I'm just payin' bills! Throwing them all over the place.

MOYERS: More than 20-thousand people sent in their bills: mortgage, gas, tuition, child care bills. The station had to replace its fax machine three times to cope with the flood of paper.
 
  • #105
Astronuc said:
Great link - so Hillary is going Republican? :biggrin:
We have two parties, Republocrats and Neocons.
 
  • #106
Skyhunter said:
With unregulated capitalism you get what we have today.

Today, we don't have unregulated capitalism. There are a vast swathe of legislations which are many times used by the politicians to grant favors and cut down talent.

Skyhunter said:
So when government interferes, it does so in favor of the capitalists who keep them in power.

If the government interferes it becomes a mixed economy, a mixture of capitalism, and socialism.
The meaning of capitalism is 0 interference from the government. What you are describing is not a fault of capitalism but of mixed economy.
 
  • #107
sid_galt said:
Today, we don't have unregulated capitalism. There are a vast swathe of legislations which are many times used by the politicians to grant favors and cut down talent.
Could you provide examples.

sid_galt said:
If the government interferes it becomes a mixed economy, a mixture of capitalism, and socialism.
The meaning of capitalism is 0 interference from the government. What you are describing is not a fault of capitalism but of mixed economy.
Capitalist utopia?

I don't see how this could work. Sounds like the law of the jungle would be the only rules.
 
  • #108
Skyhunter said:
Could you provide examples.

That's easy enough.

Labor laws
Sarbenes-Oblonexey law
regulation on commerce laws
plently other laws.

Skyhunter said:
Capitalist utopia?

Of course not. No matter which system you choose, there'll always be lazy people who don't want to work and who never will get out of poverty.

Skyhunter said:
I don't see how this could work. Sounds like the law of the jungle would be the only rules.

Wrong. In the jungle, there are no laws against the use of physical force and fraud.
 
  • #109
sid_galt said:
That's easy enough.

Labor laws
Sarbenes-Oblonexey law
regulation on commerce laws
plently other laws.
I agree that it would certainly be nice to do away with regulation, especially when it creates extra effort to comply.

You don't mean all labor laws do you?

sid_galt said:
Of course not. No matter which system you choose, there'll always be lazy people who don't want to work and who never will get out of poverty.
Why should people need to get out of poverty?

In a successful society they would not be there to begin with.

sid_galt said:
Wrong. In the jungle, there are no laws against the use of physical force and fraud.
There are many ways beyond physical force and fraud to harm people.

Like creating an energy crisis for profit. Resulting in more regulation. (What a vicious cycle)

I don't believe that a society based on consumption of resources is sustainable for the next 100 years. To unleash the unfettered greed of the wealthy capitalist upon what is left of the planet would only quicken the ecological disaster that is already on an irreversible course.

You truly believe that giving the smartest guys in the room, with most of the money and influence, unfettered power to just have at, no rules, no regulations. The only recourse anyone harmed will have is the courts, and with caps on lawsuits it becomes a calculated risk, part of the cost of doing business.

You should be careful what you wish for. Because I am afraid you might just get it.
 
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  • #110
Skyhunter said:
You don't mean all labor laws do you?
If two men come to a contract on mutual agreement, the govt. does not have any business to interefere.

Skyhunter said:
Like creating an energy crisis for profit.
You and I will probably disagree on this but anyway.

1. If the company is not stealing other people's money from them, the govt. and the people have no right to steal the company's money from itself no matter how it is using its property.

2. No single company can create an energy crisis itself.

3. If a group of companies come together and decide to withhold all production if they are not offered higher prices (very unlikely), then they will likely lose money in the long term as
a) they will lose the trust of the public who will prefer other competitors
b) people will be forced to look for other energy sources - necessity is the mother of invention.
c) If they increase the price of oil too much, alternative energy sources e.g. solar cells will actually become cheaper than oil and people will start switching.

Skyhunter said:
I don't believe that a society based on consumption of resources is sustainable for the next 100 years.
You mean a society based on oil? I think it is. Firstly, I don't believe there exists any method to extract more than 35% oil from oilwells before extraction starts getting too expensive.
-Someday someone might just invent a way to extract the rest of the 65% oil in a cheap way.
-Peak oil fears are frequently overhyped by environmentalists and other people and companies who want to take advantage of the situation to get their own agendas through. What you are reading in the papers might not be true.

Skyhunter said:
To unleash the unfettered greed of the wealthy capitalist
While not many businessmen are ethical these days, I think greedy capitalists are quite nice. The more their greed, the more their desire for money, the more the growth of the economy.

Skyhunter said:
upon what is left of the planet would only quicken the ecological disaster that is already on an irreversible course.
There is no credible scientific evidence that completely proves that we are heading towards an ecological disaster. Atleast not for another 100 years.

Skyhunter said:
You truly believe that giving the smartest guys in the room, with most of the money and influence, unfettered power

The smartest guys can have no power unless it is given to them by the government like in the case of Kelo decision. The smartest guys too are bound by the market.

If they for instance, try to spike up the price of a popular product, they would lose to competitors or other market alternatives.

If they try to fluctuate prices to keep competition down, they will lose the confidence of investors and people. They'll lose business. In the marketplace appearance matters much more than quality. If people think a company is not reliable, they will not buy its products even if they are cheaper and better. E.g. AMD vs Intel. AMD is better but people still buy Intel.

Skyhunter said:
to just have at, no rules, no regulations. The only recourse anyone harmed will have is the courts,
What is wrong with having courts as the only recourse to being harmed? That is how it should be infact.

One thing leads to another. If you advocate limiting the rights of men in the marketplace, the government will eventually start encroaching upon other rights too.

Skyhunter said:
and with caps on lawsuits it becomes a calculated risk, part of the cost of doing business.
You mean a cap on the number of lawsuits? If that is so, then it is really bad.


Skyhunter said:
You should be careful what you wish for. Because I am afraid you might just get it.
Don't worry. I don't think it's going to happen in your or my lifetime. If anything, we are moving towards a system of a bigger government. The disgusting Kelo decision is a good example of the current trend.
 
  • #111
sid_galt said:
If two men come to a contract on mutual agreement, the govt. does not have any business to interefere.
In contract negotiations the party with the least need has the advantage. It is in the interest of the employer to keep labor hungry and poor.


sid_galt said:
You and I will probably disagree on this but anyway.

1. If the company is not stealing other people's money from them, the govt. and the people have no right to steal the company's money from itself no matter how it is using its property.

2. No single company can create an energy crisis itself.

3. If a group of companies come together and decide to withhold all production if they are not offered higher prices (very unlikely), then they will likely lose money in the long term as
a) they will lose the trust of the public who will prefer other competitors
b) people will be forced to look for other energy sources - necessity is the mother of invention.
c) If they increase the price of oil too much, alternative energy sources e.g. solar cells will actually become cheaper than oil and people will start switching.
Enron was not stealing money?

sid_galt said:
You mean a society based on oil? I think it is. Firstly, I don't believe there exists any method to extract more than 35% oil from oilwells before extraction starts getting too expensive.
-Someday someone might just invent a way to extract the rest of the 65% oil in a cheap way.
-Peak oil fears are frequently overhyped by environmentalists and other people and companies who want to take advantage of the situation to get their own agendas through. What you are reading in the papers might not be true.
No. I mean a society that encourages excess consumption.

sid_galt said:
While not many businessmen are ethical these days, I think greedy capitalists are quite nice. The more their greed, the more their desire for money, the more the growth of the economy.
At the expense of the environment, and future generations.

sid_galt said:
There is no credible scientific evidence that completely proves that we are heading towards an ecological disaster. Atleast not for another 100 years.
So as long as Exxon can fund enough "scientific studies" to raise a shred of doubt, it is OK to proceed as if nothing is happening. :eek:

How well you illustrate my point. :smile:

sid_galt said:
The smartest guys can have no power unless it is given to them by the government like in the case of Kelo decision. The smartest guys too are bound by the market.
The market that they control

sid_galt said:
If they for instance, try to spike up the price of a popular product, they would lose to competitors or other market alternatives.
There is no historic evidence that this so. People manipulate the market all the time for short term gain.

sid_galt said:
If they try to fluctuate prices to keep competition down, they will lose the confidence of investors and people. They'll lose business. In the marketplace appearance matters much more than quality. If people think a company is not reliable, they will not buy its products even if they are cheaper and better. E.g. AMD vs Intel. AMD is better but people still buy Intel.
I agree appearances are important, but for you to believe that unregulated competition is healthy. I can only look back on the history of monopolies. Companies will spend vast resources to stifle competition. In your model there would be no AMD because Intel would have bought them or crushed them long ago.

sid_galt said:
What is wrong with having courts as the only recourse to being harmed? That is how it should be infact.
What is wrong with protecting people from being harmed in the first place?

sid_galt said:
One thing leads to another. If you advocate limiting the rights of men in the marketplace, the government will eventually start encroaching upon other rights too.
I am not advocating limiting market rights. I am advocating protecting the rights of others not in the market.

sid_galt said:
You mean a cap on the number of lawsuits? If that is so, then it is really bad.
I am talking about tort reform. Specifically limiting punitive damages. If all a company has to do is pay some medical bills, providing the plaintiff can prevail against the legal resources brought to bear against them by the wealthy company, there is no deterrent to making money at the expense of others.

sid_galt said:
Don't worry. I don't think it's going to happen in your or my lifetime. If anything, we are moving towards a system of a bigger government. The disgusting Kelo decision is a good example of the current trend.
The trend I see is more and more corporate government. Kelo is an example of this. This company makes an offer to the local govt, the local govt. uses eminent domain to secure the deal.
 
  • #112
Skyhunter said:
In contract negotiations the party with the least need has the advantage.
That does not change the fact that the deal is being done with mutual consent without any violation of rights.

Skyhunter said:
It is in the interest of the employer to keep labor hungry and poor.
You're going overboard here. If the employer keeps the labor hungry, it cannot work. The employer is not interested in labor. The employer is interested in profits. Besides without the employer there wouldn't be any job for your poor hungry labor in the first place.

Skyhunter said:
Enron was not stealing money?
You are misunderstanding my position. Companies forming conglomerates are not violating the rights of other men. Enron was committing fraud and thus was commiting a violation of rights.

Besides, you have not refuted or provided counterexamples to my points.

Skyhunter said:
At the expense of the environment, and future generations.
Again, you provide no proof for this statement. Please note that anthropologically generated climate change is highly controversial.

Skyhunter said:
So as long as Exxon can fund enough "scientific studies" to raise a shred of doubt, it is OK to proceed as if nothing is happening. :eek:
This is BS. If you want to discredit the studies, then give your reasons. You just cannot discredit a study because it is being done by Exxon.

Skyhunter said:
The market that they control
The market consists of consumers. The companies do not control the consumers.
The companies can't play as they want in the market. If they play bad, the market will respond. It will stop buying their products.

Skyhunter said:
There is no historic evidence that this so.
Although no historical example can currently come to my mind, can you disprove my point?

Skyhunter said:
People manipulate the market all the time for short term gain.
True. I am talking of long term gains.

Skyhunter said:
I agree appearances are important, but for you to believe that unregulated competition is healthy. I can only look back on the history of monopolies.
Do look at the history of monopolies. I think you'll only prove me right. The only monopolies that have been oppressive are the ones that have been helped by the government.

Skyhunter said:
Companies will spend vast resources to stifle competition. In your model there would be no AMD because Intel would have bought them or crushed them long ago.
Intel could not crush them because AMD is better than Intel. Even though appearances are very important, they are not the ultimate factor in the market. Believe me, if AMD continues to splash better products for the next 10-15 years, it will eventually overtake Intel.

Skyhunter said:
What is wrong with protecting people from being harmed in the first place?
The thing that is wrong is that in the name of protecting people, you are enacting legislations that violate individual rights.

Let me give an example. All of the 9/11 terrorists were Muslims. Would you support the govt. if it tells the Muslims that from now on they can only move within a 100 miles of their homes and cannot go farther? You would not.

Then by what conceivable standard do you support punishing the entire business community by slapping regulations for the wrong actions of a few?

Skyhunter said:
I am not advocating limiting market rights. I am advocating protecting the rights of others not in the market.
But their rights are protected. The companies are not forcing them to buy anything.

Skyhunter said:
Specifically limiting punitive damages. If all a company has to do is pay some medical bills, providing the plaintiff can prevail against the legal resources brought to bear against them by the wealthy company, there is no deterrent to making money at the expense of others.
Firstly, money is not made at the expense of others that is unless an individual or a company is rising through special govt. favors or fraud.

As for the rest of your post, I am not a legal expert. You may very well be right on that point. But that doesn't concern what we are discussing right now - whether regulations should exist or not.

Skyhunter said:
The trend I see is more and more corporate government. Kelo is an example of this. This company makes an offer to the local govt, the local govt. uses eminent domain to secure the deal.

Very true. The govt. is getting more and more fascist.
 
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  • #113
sid_galt said:
Very true. The govt. is getting more and more fascist.
I agree with you in principle that the less interference from government the better off we all are. The point I am trying to make is that without an effective government that is responsive to the people we will never get there. To simply repeal all the laws governing labor and commerce would be a disaster.

We would be back where we were 100-150 years ago.

Remember the http://www.wvculture.org/history/minewars.html?

As far as damage to the environment goes, I have witnessed it all my life. Superfund sites, polluted air, polluted water, mass extinction of species, deforestation, and global warming.

When you start with a conclusion and work backwards that is not science. Exxon wanted a certain result and they got it. Their intent was and is to cast doubt on the scientific conclusions of the super majority of scientists. The sceptics are fewer and fewer. the few holdouts are being paid by the energy industry.

And they worked for the Bush administration until they got caught.

BUSH AIDE EDITED CLIMATE REPORTS

By ANDREW C. REVKIN
New York Times
June 8, 2005

A White House official who once led the oil industry's fight against limits on greenhouse gases has repeatedly edited government climate reports in ways that play down links between such emissions and global warming, according to internal documents.

In handwritten notes on drafts of several reports issued in 2002 and 2003, the official, Philip A. Cooney, removed or adjusted descriptions of climate research that government scientists and their supervisors, including some senior Bush administration officials, had already approved. In many cases, the changes appeared in the final reports.

The dozens of changes, while sometimes as subtle as the insertion of the phrase ''significant and fundamental'' before the word ''uncertainties,'' tend to produce an air of doubt about findings that most climate experts say are robust.

Mr. Cooney is chief of staff for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, the office that helps devise and promote administration policies on environmental issues.

Before going to the White House in 2001, he was the ''climate team leader'' and a lobbyist at the American Petroleum Institute, the largest trade group representing the interests of the oil industry. A lawyer with a bachelor's degree in economics, he has no scientific training.

The documents were obtained by The New York Times from the Government Accountability Project, a nonprofit legal-assistance group for government whistle-blowers.

The project is representing Rick S. Piltz, who resigned in March as a senior associate in the office that coordinates government climate research. That office, now called the Climate Change Science Program, issued the documents that Mr. Cooney edited.

A White House spokeswoman, Michele St. Martin, said yesterday that Mr. Cooney would not be available to comment. ''We don't put Phil Cooney on the record,'' Ms. St. Martin said. ''He's not a cleared spokesman.''

In one instance in an October 2002 draft of a regularly published summary of government climate research, ''Our Changing Planet,'' Mr. Cooney amplified the sense of uncertainty by adding the word ''extremely'' to this sentence: ''The attribution of the causes of biological and ecological changes to climate change or variability is extremely difficult.''

In a section on the need for research into how warming might change water availability and flooding, he crossed out a paragraph describing the projected reduction of mountain glaciers and snowpack. His note in the margins explained that this was ''straying from research strategy into speculative findings/musings.''

Other White House officials said the changes made by Mr. Cooney were part of the normal interagency review that takes place on all documents related to global environmental change. Robert Hopkins, a spokesman for the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, noted that one of the reports Mr. Cooney worked on, the administration's 10-year plan for climate research, was endorsed by the National Academy of Sciences. And Myron Ebell, who has long campaigned against limits on greenhouse gases as director of climate policy at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian group, said such editing was necessary for ''consistency'' in meshing programs with policy.

But critics said that while all administrations routinely vetted government reports, scientific content in such reports should be reviewed by scientists. Climate experts and representatives of environmental groups, when shown examples of the revisions, said they illustrated the significant if largely invisible influence of Mr. Cooney and other White House officials with ties to energy industries that have long fought greenhouse-gas restrictions.

In a memorandum sent last week to the top officials dealing with climate change at a dozen agencies, Mr. Piltz said the White House editing and other actions threatened to taint the government's $1.8 billion-a-year effort to clarify the causes and consequences of climate change.

''Each administration has a policy position on climate change,'' Mr. Piltz wrote. ''But I have not seen a situation like the one that has developed under this administration during the past four years, in which politicization by the White House has fed back directly into the science program in such a way as to undermine the credibility and integrity of the program.''

A senior Environmental Protection Agency scientist who works on climate questions said the White House environmental council, where Mr. Cooney works, had offered valuable suggestions on reports from time to time. But the scientist, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because all agency employees are forbidden to speak with reporters without clearance, said the kinds of changes made by Mr. Cooney had damaged morale. ''I have colleagues in other agencies who express the same view, that it has somewhat of a chilling effect and has created a sense of frustration,'' he said.

Efforts by the Bush administration to highlight uncertainties in science pointing to human-caused warming have put the United States at odds with other nations and with scientific groups at home.

Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain, who met with President Bush at the White House yesterday, has been trying to persuade him to intensify United States efforts to curb greenhouse gases. Mr. Bush has called only for voluntary measures to slow growth in emissions through 2012.

Yesterday, saying their goal was to influence that meeting, the scientific academies of 11 countries, including those of the United States and Britain, released a joint letter saying, ''The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action.''

The American Petroleum Institute, where Mr. Cooney worked before going to the White House, has long taken a sharply different view. Starting with the negotiations leading to the Kyoto Protocol climate treaty in 1997, it has promoted the idea that lingering uncertainties in climate science justify delaying restrictions on emissions of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping smokestack and tailpipe gases.

On learning of the White House revisions, representatives of some environmental groups said the effort to amplify uncertainties in the science was clearly intended to delay consideration of curbs on the gases, which remain an unavoidable byproduct of burning oil and coal.

''They've got three more years, and the only way to control this issue and do nothing about it is to muddy the science,'' said Eileen Claussen, the president of the Pew Center on Global Climate Change, a private group that has enlisted businesses in programs cutting emissions.

Mr. Cooney's alterations can cause clear shifts in meaning. For example, a sentence in the October 2002 draft of ''Our Changing Planet'' originally read, ''Many scientific observations indicate that the Earth is undergoing a period of relatively rapid change.'' In a neat, compact hand, Mr. Cooney modified the sentence to read, ''Many scientific observations point to the conclusion that the Earth may be undergoing a period of relatively rapid change.''

A document showing a similar pattern of changes is the 2003 ''Strategic Plan for the United States Climate Change Science Program,'' a thick report describing the reorganization of government climate research that was requested by Mr. Bush in his first speech on the issue, in June 2001. The document was reviewed by an expert panel assembled in 2003 by the National Academy of Sciences. The scientists largely endorsed the administration's research plan, but they warned that the administration's procedures for vetting reports on climate could result in excessive political interference with science.

© 2005 The New York Times Company
The New York Times

Now he works for Exxon

Bush aide who doctored global warming documents joins ExxonMobil
 
  • #114
Skyhunter said:
I agree with you in principle that the less interference from government the better off we all are. The point I am trying to make is that without an effective government that is responsive to the people we will never get there. To simply repeal all the laws governing labor and commerce would be a disaster.

We would be back where we were 100-150 years ago.

Remember the http://www.wvculture.org/history/minewars.html?

Your example of the West Virginia Mine Wars does not disprove my point. After doing a bit of background searching on the topic, I found this article.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~wvcoal/essays/med1.htm

1. The land was forcibly stolen from the landowners in West Virginia by the government on the initiative of the speculators much like the Kelo decision of today. Without govt. help, no group of companies could have acquired so much land.
2. Then the speculators collaborated with the local government to pass laws to keep the miners in check
3. The speculators owned the local law enforcement, which should have been the prerogative of the government.
4. Since the speculators bribed the government to steal land from the people, there was no room left for competition.

It was a corporate+government generated fiasco, not the product of a government which had no regulations but protected individual rights. In this case, the government at the initiative of the corporate repeatedly violated the rights of the landowners who were forced to turn into miners.

If the situation had been a product of no regulation, this would have been the situation in many states in America, not just West Virginia.

Can you give an example in which without any government role, a private company or a group engaged in a business activity and made conditions worse for the workers than before leaving them with no chance to improve?

Skyhunter said:
As far as damage to the environment goes, I have witnessed it all my life. Superfund sites, polluted air, polluted water, mass extinction of species, deforestation, and global warming.
Claims of an impending ecological disaster are being made since the 70s. None has come. None will most likely come in the near future.


Skyhunter said:
And they worked for the Bush administration until they got caught. Now he works for Exxon

Point taken. However Exxon is not the only one which is saying global warming is false.

Also, although anthropological global warming is very controversial, even though half of the scientists believe its true doesn't mean they are right.
In the late 19th century, many physicists including people like Kelvin believed that physics was approaching its end. They were wrong.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #115
Besides global warming sid_galt, i invite you to see (or swim if you have the balls..) some of the rivers of my country. They are BLACK, 100% polluted, and on it's shores, Shell, Esso (Exxon), Repsol YPF..
 
  • #116
sid_galt said:
Claims of an impending ecological disaster are being made since the 70s. None has come. None will most likely come in the near future.

You know, sid, according to the World Hunger Organization, 40% of the world's population lives without access to clean water. As Burnsys points out, we've been dumping waste into rivers and lakes for over a century now at alarming rates. The California wetlands are gone, and when the Salton Sea goes, there will be no more feeding zones for all of the migratory birds that come through. We're practically going through a mass extinction as we speak. Asthma rates in places like Los Angeles and Houston are ridiculous. A good deal of lakes and rivers in eastern Canada can no longer support the fish that used to live in them because of acid rain. That combined with overfishing has decimated not only the aquatic ecosystems, but the human communities that relied on fishing. Maybe "disaster" isn't the right word for it; we have certainly seen no 'Day After Tomorrow' scenario and we aren't likely to, but it isn't like everything is hunky dory either.
 
  • #117
The official 2004 poverty threshold is $19,311 for a family of four. Does anyone know the official definition of poverty? Just wondering.
 
  • #119
SOS2008 said:
The official 2004 poverty threshold is $19,311 for a family of four. Does anyone know the official definition of poverty? Just wondering.

I posted about it earlier in the thread. I don't have time for a full repost right now, but you can look for it. It's from the Census Bureau website. They use a formula devised in the 50s based on a USDA standard for how much food a family would need to take into keep from being malnourished. What they calculated to be the minimum income to buy this minimum amount of food, and still pay the bills and all, was called the poverty line. You can get the specifics and numbers and all from the Census website.
 
  • #120
loseyourname said:
I posted about it earlier in the thread. I don't have time for a full repost right now, but you can look for it. It's from the Census Bureau website. They use a formula devised in the 50s based on a USDA standard for how much food a family would need to take into keep from being malnourished. What they calculated to be the minimum income to buy this minimum amount of food, and still pay the bills and all, was called the poverty line. You can get the specifics and numbers and all from the Census website.
Thank you -- it gets confusing what member posted where.

I think it would be hard to support a family of four on $19,311 even if you had no luxuries (though some things like a telephone are no longer considered a luxury), especially if you don't have medical benefits.

On August 30th the Census Bureau released new data on the income, poverty and health insurance coverage in the U.S. It found that 45.8 million people were uninsured in 2004, an increase of 800,000 people since 2003.
 

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