Problems with the Dreamliner battery

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the issues related to the battery system of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, particularly focusing on safety concerns following incidents of battery fires. Participants explore the implications of these problems for Boeing and the aviation industry, touching on engineering challenges, regulatory responses, and the innovative design of the aircraft's electrical systems.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express surprise at the lack of discussion regarding the Dreamliner battery issues, highlighting the severity of the incidents and their implications for Boeing's reputation.
  • One participant notes that thermite-style reactions in lithium-ion batteries are known, suggesting that Boeing has implemented multiple systems to monitor and control battery charging to mitigate risks.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for internal cell shorts leading to overheating and self-sustaining fires, with a participant citing Boeing's design philosophy to contain such failures until they burn out.
  • Another participant argues that the Dreamliner represents a significant shift in commercial aircraft design, suggesting that the problems encountered were somewhat expected given the scale of innovation involved.
  • Some participants criticize the public relations efforts surrounding the aircraft's safety, questioning the FAA's role in certifying the new electrical systems and expressing skepticism about the resolution of ongoing issues.
  • Questions are posed regarding the uniqueness of the 787's electric power distribution system, with participants seeking further information and links to relevant articles.
  • There are mentions of other issues with the 787, such as brake failures and fuel leaks, with some participants downplaying these concerns while emphasizing the significance of the electrical system challenges.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of concerns and optimism regarding the Dreamliner. While some acknowledge the innovative aspects of the aircraft and the engineering challenges faced, others are critical of Boeing's handling of safety issues and the FAA's regulatory decisions. No consensus is reached on the overall safety or future of the aircraft.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the 787's electrical system and its implications for aircraft design, but there are unresolved questions about the interactions between the battery and this system. Limitations in public knowledge about past electrical issues during the flight test program are also mentioned.

  • #91
Boeing statement with some details on their fixes
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2622
and some news comment:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/business/boeing-details-its-fixes-for-787.html
“We think the likelihood of a repeat event is very unlikely,” Ron Hinderberger, a senior Boeing 787 engineer, said on a conference call on Friday.
That guy's name sounds a bit too close to "Hindenberger" for comfort :smile:

Interesting that Boeing's interpretation of "extensive testing" appears to be a couple of weeks of lab tests, and just ONE flight test "because the batteries are not used in normal flight" (NYT article).

But the issue is not about whether the batteries are used in normal flight, but whether they catch fire in normal flight. And they have already demonstrated that fact.
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #92
It's all too easy to nitpick from afar
but I can't resist this, from 'spook's Aviation Week article:

The agency's investigation found—among other things—no record of the final production-standard charging system having been tested with the actual GS Yuasa-made battery. According to the NTSB report, Securiplane, the charging system developer, tested the unit with a simulated electric load instead of an actual battery. The company apparently took this precaution after having earlier suffered a fire at its facility during battery testing.

So a battery charger that flies blind after estimating its battery's state of charge wasn't tested with a real battery because it sets real batteries afire? And somebody put one in an airplane?
( See front page of battery charger patent(US5780994) for a synopsis of the charging algorithm:
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid...&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page
)

we must not be getting the whole story.
Operational improvements also focus on tightening of the battery system's voltage range. This addresses another finding of the NTSB interim report that the battery did not behave as either Boeing or the system subcontractor Thales indicated. In particular, the battery's power discharge was “not at the constant rate described by the Boeing or Thales documents and included large changes and reversals of power within short periods of time,” it notes.


Yet from the interim report, page 33:
Battery testing consisted of full-performance, environmental qualification, and destructive tests. The destructive tests included external short circuit (low and moderate impedance shorts at battery terminals), overcharge (charge battery at 36 volts for 25 hours), high-temperature storage (185º F for 18 hours), and overdischarge (discharge battery to zero volts) tests. Boeing indicated that the tests found no evidence of cell-to-cell propagation failure or fire.


I'm beginning to appreciate my bumpersticker: "Real aviators fly homebuilts".
 
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  • #93
jim hardy said:
It's all too easy to nitpick from afar

It's not nitpicking.

From the NY Times link:
During the presentation, Boeing also disputed characterizations made by the National Transportation Safety Board in its investigation of the Boston episode. The safety board has described it as a fire event that was caused when a failure in one cell cascaded to others, in what the board referred to as a thermal runaway. Boeing executives took issue with both assertions, contending there never was a fire inside the battery. They pointed out that the only eyewitness report referred to two three-inch flames on the connectors outside the battery box. The second episode involved only smoke.

In a report last week, the safety board said that firefighters reported “radiant heat waves” along with considerable smoke, but no flames, and one firefighter was burned in the neck when the battery exploded.

In response, a safety board spokeswoman said the board stood by its report and would “release only factual information as we are able to corroborate it.”
 
  • #94
... there never was a fire inside the battery. They pointed out that the only eyewitness report referred to two three-inch flames on the connectors outside the battery box.
"sometimes you have to look reality square in the eye and deny it." garrison keillor
Through another test, the team demonstrated that fire cannot occur within the new enclosure. Its design eliminates oxygen, making the containment unit self-inerting. Inerting is a step above fire detection and extinguishing as it prevents a fire from ever occurring.

When the oxygen is already inside the battery ? LiCoO2

PR Pablum, unless I've misinterpreted verb "inerting"...
 
  • #95
"There never was a fire inside the battery." -- Boeing
Boeing-Dreamliner-1.jpg

ANA battery.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/187629791_Boeing_faces_battles__fixing_Dreamliner_and_winning_back_fliers_to_repair_the_787_and_public_s_trust.html

0125-plane_full_380.jpg

NTSB Chairwoman Deborah Hersman
I have to say, I admire this woman. She is placing the safety of people ahead of Boeing's financial desires. -- Ptero
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0125/NTSB-Boeing-787-batteries-show-signs-of-short-circuiting

There was never a fire inside the battery." -_ Boeing
article-2258626-16CC9F5E000005DC-293_634x666.jpg

"Where there's smoke, there's fire." -- Smokey Bear
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t722258p1/

Now I have a few comments. I am learning a lot from the posters here. Thank you for this.
During the past 15 years, I have worked with quite a few high-tech companies who have been either destroyed by competitors or the financial institutions they trusted. The business strategy has shifted from outright competition, using excellence of product and marketing skills, to that of military-styled disinformation and subversion of competitors. This is widespread. It is destroying our country, as well, but I will save this for another forum.

We are presently witnessing Boeing, who have extensive historical experience building aircraft that carry bombs, attempting to persuade the FAA and the NTSB that they know best and that battery packs which have demonstrated they can explode like small bombs can be carried safely on passenger aircraft, not bombers, with a little clever "engineering". This is a new transition in thought, and the government agency leaders are balking at committing themselves to this. Perhaps, like myself, they feel that real engineering actually avoids the problem in the first place, rather than wrapping a kludge around it. Now with their back to the wall, Boeing seems, to me, to be moving toward disinformation and, likely in my opinion, other questionable activities that may, in the long run, not turn out well for them or the people who fly on their Dreamliners.

Putting lipstick on a pig is not engineering. It is instead, a shameful admission that real engineering has been abandoned in favor of essentially political/corporate "solutions".
 
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  • #96
They pointed out that the only eyewitness report referred to two three-inch flames on the connectors outside the battery box.

So why are were they using electrical connectors that can spontaneously combust? :biggrin:
 
  • #97
jim hardy said:
So a battery charger that flies blind after estimating its battery's state of charge wasn't tested with a real battery because it sets real batteries afire? And somebody put one in an airplane?
...
we must not be getting the whole story.

I'm not trying to defend anybody here, but I certainly wouldn't expect "what is declared for certification" to be "the whole story". Dealing with a certifying authority is a bit like being intervied by the police. Telling them lies is usually a bad strategy, but telling them everything you know isn't a good plan either. Any information that goes to the certifying body can potentially appear in the public domain and be raked over by no-win-no-fee lawyers, outsiide of your control.

Even for well established technology, there's an art to writing certification reports that demonstrate compliance but contain the absolute mimumum of information.

I could give examples from my personal experience where the amount of actual testing done was much more than was ever declared, and things were redesigned because of the results of the undeclared tests. But there is no way we would ever release the fact that those tests had even been done, let alone give a lawyer the chance to put the case to a jury (hand-picked to know nothing about science and technology, of course) that "you knew all along that XYZ blew up the first time you tested it".
 
  • #98
NTSB reminds Boeing of the "rules of engagement" over media briefings.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-22/boeing-faulted-by-ntsb-for-comments-on-787-battery-fix.html
 
  • #99
It just keeps getting better.

Shares in GS Yuasa, the Japanese battery supplier for Boeing's troubled Dreamliner, plunged on Thursday after its power packs overheated or caught fire in Mitsubishi's electric and hybrid vehicles.
http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/news/dreamliner-battery-makers-shares-plunge-034113052.html

Japan's Mitsubishi reports battery overheat problems
The move follows the melting of a lithium battery pack in a hybrid Outlander that was due for sale earlier this month, as well as a fire triggered by an overheating unit in a factory which produces the MiEV electric vehicle.
http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/news/japans-mitsubishi-reports-battery-overheat-140348276.html

GS Yuasa Crisis Deepens as Mitsubishi Car Battery Catches Fire
“This is more serious than the airplane incident.” -- Shoichi Arisawa, an analyst at Iwai Cosmo Securities Co.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...s-as-mitsubishi-car-battery-catches-fire.html

As if this isn't enough, the Dreamliner battery box now seems to be taking on characteristics of the "box" in which Erwin Schroedinger placed his infamous cat and the "event horizon" of a black hole.

Finally, it looks like the FAA is going to restrict all future 787 flights to over-land operation during the validation phase. This is not going to make Boeing's customers, who rely heavily on trans-ocean routes, very happy.
Boeing 787 faces new risk: limits on extended range: sources
http://news.yahoo.com/boeing-787-faces-risk-limits-extended-range-sources-000633878--finance.html;_ylt=AwrNUbCmhlRRXEEAl2bQtDMD

Here's a $237MM loss to the U.S. Navy in a lithium battery fire I hadn't heard of before.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/07/navy_seal_minisub_072709w/
 
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  • #100
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2660

EVERETT, Wash., April 19, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Today's approval of battery system improvements for the 787 Dreamliner by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) clears the way for Boeing (NYSE: BA) and its customers to install the approved modifications and will lead to a return to service and resumption of new production deliveries.

"FAA approval clears the way for us and the airlines to begin the process of returning the 787 to flight with continued confidence in the safety and reliability of this game-changing new airplane," said Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Jim McNerney. "The promise of the 787 and the benefits it provides to airlines and their passengers remain fully intact as we take this important step forward with our customers and program partners."
 
  • #101
So the FAA caved in and issued that statement before the NTSB's public hearings on 23 and 24 April. And they are maintaining the 180 minute ETOPS rating.

The Japanese Civil Aviation Board doesn't plan to just roll over (though they probably will eventually) http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/20/boeing-dreamliner-battery-idUSL2N0D61UG20130420

The next step for Japan would be to revise its version of the airworthiness directive, known as a "technical circular directive" Takano said that could come on or after April 25.

"We want to make the final decision on flight resumption based on the FAA's airworthiness directive revision as well as checking the results of a U.S. National Transportation Safety Board-hosted hearing set to take place on April 23 and 24," he said.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the top U.S. transportation investigator, is investigating a battery fire on a JAL Dreamliner plane parked at an airport in Boston in January and will have an investigative hearing on the jet's battery next week.

Japan has yet to decide whether it should require ANA and JAL to take additional measures to ensure the safety of the lithium-ion batteries used in the Dreamliner, Takano added.
 
  • #102
Forgive my well-founded pessimism but I really don't think they have even identified the problem, much less solved it. Certification testing cannot duplicate the random rogue shorting that causes these batteries to ignite or explode. In fact, due to the fact that shorting cannot be initiated or predicted or discovered by any means prior to failure, short-term certification testing can only suggest a meaningless number for MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure). If I am correct, in the worst case, we will see a 787 fall out of the sky in flames - ignited by a thermal runaway/explosion in one of the lithium batteries. More likely will be a repeat of one of the prior incidents and a re-grounding of the 787 fleet. I doubt this will take long.

If we do have a serious accident resulting from this jury-rigged "fix", this upcoming meeting will take on historical significance as an illustration of how secular financial, corporate and governmental desires trumped sound electrical engineering and the so-called priority of passenger safety. Don't miss it.

National Transportation Safety Board Investigative Hearing:
Boeing 787 Battery
April 23-24, 2013 at 9:00 am ET

After 8:30 am on April 23 (next Tuesday), you will be able to find the live link to a live web stream of the meeting, staring the usual suspects, here

http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm

You will also find archived at this link, the 2-day hearing on "Lithium Batteries in Transportation" from April 11 - 12.
_____________________

Boeing Press Release: April 19, 2013
- Modifications to existing fleets to begin; deliveries to resume soon
- Boeing to provide customers support for return to service
EVERETT, Wash., April 19, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Today's approval of battery system improvements for the 787 Dreamliner by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) clears the way for Boeing (NYSE: BA) and its customers to install the approved modifications and will lead to a return to service and resumption of new production deliveries.
"FAA approval clears the way for us and the airlines to begin the process of returning the 787 to flight with continued confidence in the safety and reliability of this game-changing new airplane," said Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Jim McNerney. "The promise of the 787 and the benefits it provides to airlines and their passengers remain fully intact as we take this important step forward with our customers and program partners."
The FAA's action will permit the return to service of 787s in the United States upon installation of the improvements. For 787s based and modified outside the United States, local regulatory authorities provide the final approval on return to service.
Approval of the improved 787 battery system was granted by the FAA after the agency conducted an extensive review of certification tests. The tests were designed to validate that individual components of the battery, as well as its integration with the charging system and a new enclosure, all performed as expected during normal operation and under failure conditions. Testing was conducted under the supervision of the FAA over a month-long period beginning in early March.
"The FAA set a high bar for our team and our solution," said McNerney. "We appreciate the diligence, expertise and professionalism of the FAA's technical team and the leadership of FAA Administrator Michael Huerta and Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood throughout this process. Our shared commitment with global regulators and our customers to safe, efficient and reliable airplanes has helped make air travel the safest form of transportation in the world today."
Boeing, in collaboration with its supplier partners and in support of the investigations of the National Transportation Safety Board and the Japan Transport Safety Board, conducted extensive engineering analysis and testing to develop a thorough understanding of the factors that could have caused the 787's batteries to fail and overheat in two incidents last January. The team spent more than 100,000 hours developing test plans, building test rigs, conducting tests and analyzing the results to ensure the proposed solutions met all requirements.
"Our team has worked tirelessly to develop a comprehensive solution that fully satisfies the FAA and its global counterparts, our customers and our own high standards for safety and reliability," said Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner. "Through the skill and dedication of the Boeing team and our partners, we achieved that objective and made a great airplane even better."
Boeing also engaged a team of more than a dozen battery experts from across multiple industries, government, academia and consumer safety to review and validate the company's assumptions, findings, proposed solution and test plan.
The improved battery system includes design changes to both prevent and isolate a fault should it occur. In addition, improved production, operating and testing processes have been implemented. The new steel enclosure system is designed to keep any level of battery overheating from affecting the airplane or even being noticed by passengers.
"This is a comprehensive and permanent solution with multiple layers of protection," said Conner. "The ultimate layer of protection is the new enclosure, which will ensure that even if a battery fails, there is no impact to the airplane and no possibility of fire. We have the right solution in hand, and we are ready to go.
"We are all very grateful to our customers for their patience during the past several months," said Conner. "We know it hasn't been easy on them to have their 787s out of service and their deliveries delayed. We look forward to helping them get back into service as quickly as possible."
Boeing has deployed teams to locations around the world to begin installing improved battery systems on 787s. Kits with the parts needed for the new battery systems are staged for shipment and new batteries also will be shipped immediately. Teams have been assigned to customer locations to install the new systems. Airplanes will be modified in approximately the order they were delivered.
"The Boeing team is ready to help get our customers' 787s back in the air where they belong," said Conner.
Boeing will also begin installing the changes on new airplanes at the company's two 787 final-assembly plants, with deliveries expected to resume in the weeks ahead. Despite the disruption in deliveries that began in January, Boeing expects to complete all planned 2013 deliveries by the end of the year. Boeing further expects that the 787 battery issue will have no significant impact to its 2013 financial guidance.
More information is available on our special 787 website.
Forward-Looking Statements
Certain statements in this release may be "forward-looking" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Words such as "expects," "forecasts," "plans," "projects," "believes," "estimates," "targets," "anticipates," and similar expressions are used to identify these forward-looking statements. Forward-looking statements are based on our current expectations and assumptions, which may not prove to be accurate. These statements are not guarantees and are subject to risks, uncertainties, and changes in circumstances that are difficult to predict. Actual outcomes and results may differ materially from what is expressed or forecasted in these forward-looking statements. As a result, these statements speak to events only as of the date they are made and we undertake no obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statement, except as required by federal securities laws. Specific factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, the effect of economic conditions in the United States and globally, and general industry conditions as they may impact us or our customers, as well as the other important factors disclosed previously and from time to time in our filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Contact:
Marc Birtel
Boeing Commercial Airplanes Media Relations
+1 425 266 5822
marc.r.birtel@boeing.com
SOURCE Boeing
________________________

Michael Leon is adamant about his fear about the use of lithium-ion batteries on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner...

"My BCU wasn't running and this lithium-ion battery just decided to explode," said Leon. "The magnitude of energy that came out of this battery, I cannot quantify it. I ran out of there and armed myself with 30 pounds of Halon and I ran back into the inferno. By then all the walls were on fire."

The fire at Securaplane in 2006 was well documented at the time. Boeing said it was the result of a test set up improperly, and it was not a case where a lithium-ion battery simply exploded for no reason.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100406310
__________________________

A 2006 Battery Fire Destroyed Boeing 787 Supplier's Facility
http://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tec...estroyed-boeing-787-suppliers-facility/60809/
 
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  • #103
Okay, you guys, here's a claim that lithium burns with aluminum. Can someone enlighten me to the chemistry? I have a rerun of Alien playing in my mind where the crew cuts off the leg of a "face-hugger" and the blood that squirts out starts burning holes between decks on its way to the hull.
________________

Battery Burns
by dean adams
Thursday, April 18, 2013
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Apr/130418mnsa11.htm

The fire in the Tech 3 Yamaha garage last night was caused by a lithium battery in a remote engine starting unit, either left on the charger or in an "on" position over night.
See http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/04/18/fire_in_yamaha_garage_gets_austin_motogp.html

If you've flown commercial recently--I just got off a Delta flight--then no doubt you have heard the new warning messages that some airlines are making pre-flight, that passengers are not to bring lithium batteries on the plane, have them in chargers or in a device that is turned on (the message varies between airlines).

Lithium batteries are super-light, charge quickly and are very powerful for their size. But they also can be a huge and dangerous fire hazard. Boeing's new 787 "Dreamliner" plane was grounded over fears that its lithium-ion batteries were a major fire hazard.

corser.jpg


In motorcycle racing it's well known that BMW lost an entire WSBK factory bike last season when a lithium-ion battery burst into flames. When it all goes pear-shaped, lithium-ion batteries burn very hot and love to use aluminum frames for fuel. At least twice now a race bike fire caused by a lithium-ion battery went from 'Hey, is that thing smoking?' to GET IT OUTSIDE! NOW! PUSH IT OUTSIDE!' in a very short time. The batteries cause a fire so hot that water is only a short-term answer for extinguishing the flames.

The battery in Tech 3's starter was probably larger than what is normally used in a motorcycle application. While three garages were left under water, Tech 3 is very lucky that the situation was not much worse.
 
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  • #104
Am I reading this right?

Wall Street Journal, April 21. 2013
...Boeing's new stainless-steel containment box prevented heat from damaging surrounding aircraft parts and should prevent pilots from having to make emergency landings.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235304578436781345776410.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us

Are they saying that now that they have this new battery box, if the lithium battery catches on fire, they will just continue on their merry way through the sky with part of their aircraft on fire and not declare an emergency landing? That's not what it says, is it? Come on, they're not really saying that, are they?
 
  • #105
Ptero said:
Am I reading this right?

Wall Street Journal, April 21. 2013
...Boeing's new stainless-steel containment box prevented heat from damaging surrounding aircraft parts and should prevent pilots from having to make emergency landings.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235304578436781345776410.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us

Are they saying that now that they have this new battery box, if the lithium battery catches on fire, they will just continue on their merry way through the sky with part of their aircraft on fire and not declare an emergency landing? That's not what it says, is it? Come on, they're not really saying that, are they?

Yes, even with a battery "event", they will not have to divert. 3 hour ETOPS certification remains in effect. The long distance money-making qualities of this amazing airplane remain untouched. Once they arrive at the destination, I suppose all they'll need to do is hose out the box and drop in a new battery. The NTSB still wants to know why the fires occur in the first place, and presumably someday they will know, but the 787 program is now on the flightpath to financial recovery, and investors and pensioners can rest easy. No, I don't fly.

Respectfully,
Steve
 
  • #106
Dotini said:
No, I don't fly.

I don't even ride in Prius'es .

Probably in a year or two somebody will come up with a non-pyrotechnic replacement.
That'll be the penny stock to buy.
 
  • #107
Dotini said:
3 hour ETOPS certification remains in effect. The long distance money-making qualities of this amazing airplane remain untouched.

From the airlines point of view, the real money making qualities come from 5 hour ETOPS, not 3.

Getting that will depend on demonstrating actual reliability in operation.

This may be a bit of a novelty for an aircraft manufacturer. Historically civil aviation has mostly been pretty low tech, and the main risk factors to a plane are at takeoff and landing, so whether you cruise at 35,000 feet for 3 hours or 13 hours doesn't change the reliability numbers by much. And (obviously) you are not 3 hours away from an airfield when you are taking off or landing, so the higher risk factors involved are irrelevant for ETOPS.

Historically the engine manufacturers have been the ones who have to jump through hoops for ETOPS certification, not the plane manufacturers.
 
  • #108
NTSB
April 11, 2013
Public Forum:
Lithium Ion Batteries in Transportation

April 23, 2013
Investigative Hearing:
Boeing 787 Battery

http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm
 
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  • #109
(Reuters) - Ethiopian Airlines on Saturday became the world's first carrier to resume flying Boeing Co's 787 Dreamliner passenger jets, landing the first commercial flight since the global fleet was grounded three months ago following incidents of overheating in the batteries providing auxiliary power
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/27/us-boeing-dreamliner-ethiopianairlines-idUSBRE93Q02A20130427

Yay! :biggrin:
 
  • #110
Ivan Seeking said:
Yay! :biggrin:

They are hedging their bets - they have orders for 10 more dreamliners and 12 A350s :biggrin:

Still, Ethoipian have a good safety record compared with most African airlines - only 60 accidents/incidents in the last 40 years :eek:
 
  • #111
AlephZero said:
They are hedging their bets - they have orders for 10 more dreamliners and 12 A350s :biggrin:

It was about five years past the original deadline for the maiden flight when the first one took off from Everett. They must have planned well because I don't think cash flow every became a critical issue. I was a little worried how long this would go on and how much cash they have in reserve. But I didn't hear any serious rumblings... not yet.

Time for the sales people to make up for lost time! Boeing is the number one exporter for the US.

Too bad about that clunky, old, heavy airframe that Airbus still uses. :biggrin:
 
  • #112
Ivan Seeking said:
Too bad about that clunky, old, heavy airframe that Airbus still uses. :biggrin:

Engine makers take a different view - more like selling shovels to gold miners.

We don't really care whether airlines buy Trent 700s on A330s, Trent 800s on 777s, Trent 900s on A380s, or Trent 1000s on 787s :smile:

(But it can be quite amusing watching Airbus and Boeing sales people slugging it out, when it's heads you win, and tails you also win)
 
  • #113
:smile: We have yet to see how the new design holds up over the long term. Hopefully there won't be any big surprises. There is no doubt that the 787 is a bold move for Boeing. But we like bold around here! :biggrin:

From what I understand, it isn't just the 20% better mileage [or whatever it works out to be], but also the ability to land on shorter runways that makes it appealing in certain markets, including for use at some regional airports.

I believe it is also the first commercial, passenger aircraft with only two engines, approved for transoceanic flights. I had a video on the making of the RR engines for these that was quite interesting but don't seem to have it handy. Very impressive technology!

A lot of firsts in there. Hopefully this will be the last of the wringing out.

I hope you guys are ready to compete with a flying wing. They're getting serious about that too. They've been doing scale model testing.
 
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  • #114
Ivan Seeking said:
I believe it is also the first commercial, passenger aircraft with only two engines, approved for transoceanic flights. I had a video on the making of the RR engines for these that was quite interesting but don't seem to have it handy. Very impressive technology!
Not true. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS for a history lesson.

You may be getting confused by Boeing's advertising over two sub-issues:
(1) ETOPS ratings at entry into service for a new aircraft type (i.e. without any "grandfather rights" or service experience to read across from an earlier design)
(2) ETOPS ratings of more than 180 minutes (and it's quite possible the FAA and the rest of the world will end up with different regulations over that issue)

Actually the engine reliability issues aren't quite as simple as "more engines = better". Each engines on a twin has to be able to deliver twice its "normal usage" max power output, to handle the case of engine failure on takeoff. For a 4-engine plane the margin is less. So in normal usage the twin's engines have a bigger design safety margin. And with twice as many engines, you are twice as likely to have one engine fail per hour of flying time!
 
  • #115
AlephZero said:
Not true. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS for a history lesson.

You may be getting confused by Boeing's advertising over two sub-issues:
(1) ETOPS ratings at entry into service for a new aircraft type (i.e. without any "grandfather rights" or service experience to read across from an earlier design)
(2) ETOPS ratings of more than 180 minutes (and it's quite possible the FAA and the rest of the world will end up with different regulations over that issue)

Actually the engine reliability issues aren't quite as simple as "more engines = better". Each engines on a twin has to be able to deliver twice its "normal usage" max power output, to handle the case of engine failure on takeoff. For a 4-engine plane the margin is less. So in normal usage the twin's engines have a bigger design safety margin. And with twice as many engines, you are twice as likely to have one engine fail per hour of flying time!

The reliability issue I get, but I understood this to be more an issue of thrust and the ability of an aircraft this size to operate safely on only one engine, esp including takeoffs.

So are there any two-engine commercial passenger crafts certified for transatlantic or transpacific flights - LA to Tokyo or NY to London, for example?
 
  • #116
But no one has suggested whether or not isolating the cells would reduce risk. And why a sensor and shut-down system wouldn't solve the problem. I understand that the fires won't go out. Where are the ideas for preventing ignition in the first place? Has anyone found any papers on these two questions?

I found one half of a roach in a Twinky in 1959. No need to guess where the other half was. Crunchy.
 
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  • #118
Ivan Seeking said:
So are there any two-engine commercial passenger crafts certified for transatlantic or transpacific flights - LA to Tokyo or NY to London, for example?

Sorry, I mussed that question - but yes, for example the B777 and A330.
 
  • #119
from memory I remember the airbus had big problems with the power system. generators overheating in the engines caused fire. hmm. how do we know it wasn't sabotage.
 
  • #120
Friday, May 10, 2013
"Boeing has put forth a superior containment so that a fire won't spread to the rest of the plane," says MIT materials chemistry professor Donald Sadoway in a statement for the FlyersRights petition. "The question is this: How long are you willing to fly without full backup power on an aircraft that is 'fly by wire'?"

MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF PETITION TO US DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (DOT), FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) AND NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD (NTSB) RE SAFETY OF BOEING 787 BATTERIES OF FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG & AVIATION CONSUMER ACTION PROJECT
BY PAUL S. HUDSON, PRESIDENT OF FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AVIATION CONSUMER ACTION PROJECT, MEMBER OF FAA AVIATION RULEMAKING ADVISORY COMMITTEE
http://strandedpassengers.blogspot.com/

May 8, 2013

In January 2013, all Boeing 787 airliners were grounded due to overheating leading to fires and subsequent failure of lithium ion batteries used on this aircraft. 1

On January 18th DOT Secretary Ray LaHood stated, “Those planes won’t fly until we’re 1,000% sure they are safe to fly.”

On April 19th, while the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) was still investigating the Boeing 787 battery fires, the FAA approved a Boeing proposed 787 battery fix, but indicated it was reviewing the three (3) hour distance from the nearest landing site that this aircraft is approved for. 2

FlyersRights.org, the largest airline passenger organization calls on DOT Secretary LaHood and the FAA Administrator Michael Huerta to require Boeing 787 be limited to no more that two hour(s) (ETOPS 120) from the nearest emergency landing site, unless its lithium ion batteries are replaced with a failsafe electrical power system proven to meet current FAA safety standards or until this aircraft has proven itself with at least 24 months of trouble free service. This is the standard used by the Joint Aviation Authorities in the 1990s to even consider allowing twin engine aircraft to be certified to fly up 3 hours from the nearest airport. 3

Lithium ion batteries have a long history of overheating, catching fire, exploding, and spewing molten metal. The two batteries used on the Boeing are large, over 60 lbs. Should they overheat and catch fire they could easily bring down the airliner, especially if it was not within easy reach of an airport available for an emergency landing. Moreover, industry wide certification standards for lithium ion batteries that are permanently installed do not currently exist. See Exhibit 1.

According to independent experts, the proposed Boeing battery fix that has received preliminary approval by the FAA is wholly inadequate to ensure the safety of the traveling public.

See Exhibit 2 (opinion of battery safety expert David Zuckerbrod);

Exhibit 3 (opinion of MIT materials professor Donald Sadoway;

Exhibit 4 (comments of former DOT Inspector General Mary Schiavo).

These known dangers have led the FAA to impose severe restrictions and outright bans on the use and carrying of lithium batteries much smaller than the 787 batteries on US airliners. 4.

Smoke and fire in US airliners is not unusual and causes about 250 emergency landings per year, and has resulted in 100% fatal crashes in the recent past . 5

The Boeing 787 is different from other airliners in that it requires five times the electric power of the present Boeing 777 to operate, has only two instead of four engines, and uses a battery known for its volatility and overheating.

Without robust testing that has yet to be done and without operational experience this fix is unproven as safe and should result at most in limited re-certification of the 787 for use only within 120 minutes of emergency landing facilities. Two hours would allow the Boeing 787 to fly transatlantic, nearly all overland routes, and many Pacific routes but not over the North Pole or trans Pacific or south Atlantic routes over 1,000 miles from a landing site.

From the limited information available, the Boeing fix does not appear to include:

a) any battery cooling apparatus at least in the rear section of the plane,

b) temperature gauges to warn pilots and ground monitoring of battery overheating or trigger cooling of overheating batteries, See Exhibit 2, 3.

Moreover, contrary to the Boeing assertions, battery fires would not necessarily be prevented by its venting system, and Boeing does not even contend that battery failure would be prevented by its band aid fix involving a containment vessel and insulation between cells.

The steel case that it claims will suppress a fire weighs 150 pounds thereby largely negating a principal advantage for using the lighter but highly volatile over older but safer cadmium batteries. See Exhibit 2, Zuckerbrod

Finally, a review of the NTSB April forum and investigative hearing transcripts and podcasts indicates:

a) the FAA has not done battery testing of the 787 battery at its tech center, but only on commonly shipped batteries in air cargo.

b) the FAA gave Boeing an extremely broad, if not unprecedented, Delegation of Authority (DOA) for the design, testing protocols, actual testing for the 787 battery certification without direct FAA supervision. Such broad based self regulation is problematic.

It raises a host of conflict of interest questions, possible self dealing and exposes the Boeing employees charged with testing and approving their employer’s products for safety to undue pressures.

It is particularly dangerous here given the known dangers of lithium ion batteries combined with the untested use of such large batteries to control the fly-by-wire Boeing 787 with five times the power requirements of its predecessor, the Boeing 777.

In March 2013 we asked the FAA and DOT Secretary LaHood to empanel a special advisory committee with outside battery experts and representatives of passenger and flight crews to review the battery fixes and testing proposed by Boeing and the certification procedures used, but received only silence from the DOT and FAA. See Exhibit 6.

NTSB Chair Hersman did respond and noted that a forum was scheduled and an investigative hearing was to be held on April 23-24 regarding the latest battery fire on a Boeing 787. But no passenger representatives were invited for participation. The Boeing fix has not been vetted by the battery technical community or the industry associations that normally recommend safety testing standards to government safety agencies. Nor have many of the technical details of the Boeing fix been publicly disclosed.

Accordingly, the lifting of the Boeing 787 grounding order to permit flights up to 3 hours from the nearest landing site is both premature while the NTSB is still investigating the cause of the 787 battery fires and does not meet the Secretary’s statement that the grounding will not be lifted until the aircraft is shown to be “1,000% ” safe.

Rather, the FAA should:

a) empanel an ad hoc advisory committee composed of battery safety experts not affiliated with Boeing or the FAA, together with stakeholder representatives of passengers and flight crews (those directly at risk), in addition to Boeing, airlines and aviation liability insurance carriers to make recommendations.

b) open a docket for public comment and post the full technical details of the Boeing proposed battery fix.

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner has been touted as a revolutionary 21st Century airliner with unmatched fuel efficiency, passenger comfort and the capacity to fly to nearly any destination on Earth nonstop. But to realize this potential Boeing must be required to meet or exceed modern aviation safety standards that it has thus far failed to do.1. FAA Emergency Air Worthiness Directive issued Jan. 16, 2013 after 787 battery fires on ground at Boston, and in air Jan. 14, 2013 in Japan, making four battery failures in one year or 52,000 hrs of operation vs Boeing’s prediction of one failure every 10 million hrs. of operation; Several other batteries replaced showing evidence of battery overheating, Aviation Herald Feb. 6, 2013; Boeing 787 had 5 incidents in 5 days .

2. www.faa.gov/mobile/index.cfm=news.read&release=14554 3. ETOPS stands for extended operations for two engine aircraft; the Joint Aviation Authorities represent European civil aviation authorities. Normally, two engine aircraft must show trouble free service for 24 months before an application to fly over 2 hours from the nearest airport will be considered. Prior to the January 2013 grounding, the Boeing 787 had ETOPS 180 certification and Boeing has sought to increase this to ETOPS 330 (5 ½ hours from the nearest airport). See ETOPS, Wikipedia showing that the Joint Aviation Authorities vetoed a Boeing attempt to certify an earlier aircraft without operational experience.4. Special conditions B787-8 airplane Lithium Ion battery installation FAA/Federal Register Oct. 11, 2007

5. E.g. Swissair Flight 111 (1998, Halifax fire due to flammable material in entertainment system caused crash killing 229 on board; UPS Flight 6 (Sept. 3, 2010 smoke in cockpit from cargo of Lithium Ion batteries crashed killing 2 person crew near Dubai, FAA then banned lithium Ion batteries on passenger jets as cargo and warned than Halon fire extinguishers ineffective for lithium ion battery fires. Other recent examples include American Airlines Eagle Flight 3773 July 20, 2012 emergency landing Peoria Ill., United 777-222 Nov. 2012 emergency landing at Gander Newfoundland; private jet carrying Ann Romney emergency landing in Denver Sept. 21, 2012 due to electrical fire; Sunway Airlines Mar. 13, 2013 in Ottawa. See gen. GAO report www.gao/atext/d0433.txt Oct. 2003.
 
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