Problems with the Dreamliner battery

  • Thread starter Thread starter Greg Bernhardt
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Battery
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the safety issues surrounding the Boeing Dreamliner's lithium-ion battery, particularly following incidents of battery fires. Experts highlight that while Boeing has implemented multiple systems to monitor and control battery charging, the risk of internal cell shorts leading to fires remains a concern. The unique electric power distribution system of the Dreamliner is noted as a significant innovation, but it also raises questions about potential failures and redesign needs. Some participants express skepticism about the aircraft's safety assurances, emphasizing the challenges Boeing faces in resolving these issues. Overall, the consensus reflects a mix of concern and recognition of the Dreamliner's groundbreaking design amidst ongoing safety challenges.
  • #101
So the FAA caved in and issued that statement before the NTSB's public hearings on 23 and 24 April. And they are maintaining the 180 minute ETOPS rating.

The Japanese Civil Aviation Board doesn't plan to just roll over (though they probably will eventually) http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/20/boeing-dreamliner-battery-idUSL2N0D61UG20130420

The next step for Japan would be to revise its version of the airworthiness directive, known as a "technical circular directive" Takano said that could come on or after April 25.

"We want to make the final decision on flight resumption based on the FAA's airworthiness directive revision as well as checking the results of a U.S. National Transportation Safety Board-hosted hearing set to take place on April 23 and 24," he said.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the top U.S. transportation investigator, is investigating a battery fire on a JAL Dreamliner plane parked at an airport in Boston in January and will have an investigative hearing on the jet's battery next week.

Japan has yet to decide whether it should require ANA and JAL to take additional measures to ensure the safety of the lithium-ion batteries used in the Dreamliner, Takano added.
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #102
Forgive my well-founded pessimism but I really don't think they have even identified the problem, much less solved it. Certification testing cannot duplicate the random rogue shorting that causes these batteries to ignite or explode. In fact, due to the fact that shorting cannot be initiated or predicted or discovered by any means prior to failure, short-term certification testing can only suggest a meaningless number for MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure). If I am correct, in the worst case, we will see a 787 fall out of the sky in flames - ignited by a thermal runaway/explosion in one of the lithium batteries. More likely will be a repeat of one of the prior incidents and a re-grounding of the 787 fleet. I doubt this will take long.

If we do have a serious accident resulting from this jury-rigged "fix", this upcoming meeting will take on historical significance as an illustration of how secular financial, corporate and governmental desires trumped sound electrical engineering and the so-called priority of passenger safety. Don't miss it.

National Transportation Safety Board Investigative Hearing:
Boeing 787 Battery
April 23-24, 2013 at 9:00 am ET

After 8:30 am on April 23 (next Tuesday), you will be able to find the live link to a live web stream of the meeting, staring the usual suspects, here

http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm

You will also find archived at this link, the 2-day hearing on "Lithium Batteries in Transportation" from April 11 - 12.
_____________________

Boeing Press Release: April 19, 2013
- Modifications to existing fleets to begin; deliveries to resume soon
- Boeing to provide customers support for return to service
EVERETT, Wash., April 19, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Today's approval of battery system improvements for the 787 Dreamliner by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) clears the way for Boeing (NYSE: BA) and its customers to install the approved modifications and will lead to a return to service and resumption of new production deliveries.
"FAA approval clears the way for us and the airlines to begin the process of returning the 787 to flight with continued confidence in the safety and reliability of this game-changing new airplane," said Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Jim McNerney. "The promise of the 787 and the benefits it provides to airlines and their passengers remain fully intact as we take this important step forward with our customers and program partners."
The FAA's action will permit the return to service of 787s in the United States upon installation of the improvements. For 787s based and modified outside the United States, local regulatory authorities provide the final approval on return to service.
Approval of the improved 787 battery system was granted by the FAA after the agency conducted an extensive review of certification tests. The tests were designed to validate that individual components of the battery, as well as its integration with the charging system and a new enclosure, all performed as expected during normal operation and under failure conditions. Testing was conducted under the supervision of the FAA over a month-long period beginning in early March.
"The FAA set a high bar for our team and our solution," said McNerney. "We appreciate the diligence, expertise and professionalism of the FAA's technical team and the leadership of FAA Administrator Michael Huerta and Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood throughout this process. Our shared commitment with global regulators and our customers to safe, efficient and reliable airplanes has helped make air travel the safest form of transportation in the world today."
Boeing, in collaboration with its supplier partners and in support of the investigations of the National Transportation Safety Board and the Japan Transport Safety Board, conducted extensive engineering analysis and testing to develop a thorough understanding of the factors that could have caused the 787's batteries to fail and overheat in two incidents last January. The team spent more than 100,000 hours developing test plans, building test rigs, conducting tests and analyzing the results to ensure the proposed solutions met all requirements.
"Our team has worked tirelessly to develop a comprehensive solution that fully satisfies the FAA and its global counterparts, our customers and our own high standards for safety and reliability," said Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner. "Through the skill and dedication of the Boeing team and our partners, we achieved that objective and made a great airplane even better."
Boeing also engaged a team of more than a dozen battery experts from across multiple industries, government, academia and consumer safety to review and validate the company's assumptions, findings, proposed solution and test plan.
The improved battery system includes design changes to both prevent and isolate a fault should it occur. In addition, improved production, operating and testing processes have been implemented. The new steel enclosure system is designed to keep any level of battery overheating from affecting the airplane or even being noticed by passengers.
"This is a comprehensive and permanent solution with multiple layers of protection," said Conner. "The ultimate layer of protection is the new enclosure, which will ensure that even if a battery fails, there is no impact to the airplane and no possibility of fire. We have the right solution in hand, and we are ready to go.
"We are all very grateful to our customers for their patience during the past several months," said Conner. "We know it hasn't been easy on them to have their 787s out of service and their deliveries delayed. We look forward to helping them get back into service as quickly as possible."
Boeing has deployed teams to locations around the world to begin installing improved battery systems on 787s. Kits with the parts needed for the new battery systems are staged for shipment and new batteries also will be shipped immediately. Teams have been assigned to customer locations to install the new systems. Airplanes will be modified in approximately the order they were delivered.
"The Boeing team is ready to help get our customers' 787s back in the air where they belong," said Conner.
Boeing will also begin installing the changes on new airplanes at the company's two 787 final-assembly plants, with deliveries expected to resume in the weeks ahead. Despite the disruption in deliveries that began in January, Boeing expects to complete all planned 2013 deliveries by the end of the year. Boeing further expects that the 787 battery issue will have no significant impact to its 2013 financial guidance.
More information is available on our special 787 website.
Forward-Looking Statements
Certain statements in this release may be "forward-looking" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Words such as "expects," "forecasts," "plans," "projects," "believes," "estimates," "targets," "anticipates," and similar expressions are used to identify these forward-looking statements. Forward-looking statements are based on our current expectations and assumptions, which may not prove to be accurate. These statements are not guarantees and are subject to risks, uncertainties, and changes in circumstances that are difficult to predict. Actual outcomes and results may differ materially from what is expressed or forecasted in these forward-looking statements. As a result, these statements speak to events only as of the date they are made and we undertake no obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statement, except as required by federal securities laws. Specific factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, the effect of economic conditions in the United States and globally, and general industry conditions as they may impact us or our customers, as well as the other important factors disclosed previously and from time to time in our filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Contact:
Marc Birtel
Boeing Commercial Airplanes Media Relations
+1 425 266 5822
marc.r.birtel@boeing.com
SOURCE Boeing
________________________

Michael Leon is adamant about his fear about the use of lithium-ion batteries on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner...

"My BCU wasn't running and this lithium-ion battery just decided to explode," said Leon. "The magnitude of energy that came out of this battery, I cannot quantify it. I ran out of there and armed myself with 30 pounds of Halon and I ran back into the inferno. By then all the walls were on fire."

The fire at Securaplane in 2006 was well documented at the time. Boeing said it was the result of a test set up improperly, and it was not a case where a lithium-ion battery simply exploded for no reason.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100406310
__________________________

A 2006 Battery Fire Destroyed Boeing 787 Supplier's Facility
http://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tec...estroyed-boeing-787-suppliers-facility/60809/
 
Last edited:
  • #103
Okay, you guys, here's a claim that lithium burns with aluminum. Can someone enlighten me to the chemistry? I have a rerun of Alien playing in my mind where the crew cuts off the leg of a "face-hugger" and the blood that squirts out starts burning holes between decks on its way to the hull.
________________

Battery Burns
by dean adams
Thursday, April 18, 2013
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Apr/130418mnsa11.htm

The fire in the Tech 3 Yamaha garage last night was caused by a lithium battery in a remote engine starting unit, either left on the charger or in an "on" position over night.
See http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/04/18/fire_in_yamaha_garage_gets_austin_motogp.html

If you've flown commercial recently--I just got off a Delta flight--then no doubt you have heard the new warning messages that some airlines are making pre-flight, that passengers are not to bring lithium batteries on the plane, have them in chargers or in a device that is turned on (the message varies between airlines).

Lithium batteries are super-light, charge quickly and are very powerful for their size. But they also can be a huge and dangerous fire hazard. Boeing's new 787 "Dreamliner" plane was grounded over fears that its lithium-ion batteries were a major fire hazard.

corser.jpg


In motorcycle racing it's well known that BMW lost an entire WSBK factory bike last season when a lithium-ion battery burst into flames. When it all goes pear-shaped, lithium-ion batteries burn very hot and love to use aluminum frames for fuel. At least twice now a race bike fire caused by a lithium-ion battery went from 'Hey, is that thing smoking?' to GET IT OUTSIDE! NOW! PUSH IT OUTSIDE!' in a very short time. The batteries cause a fire so hot that water is only a short-term answer for extinguishing the flames.

The battery in Tech 3's starter was probably larger than what is normally used in a motorcycle application. While three garages were left under water, Tech 3 is very lucky that the situation was not much worse.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #104
Am I reading this right?

Wall Street Journal, April 21. 2013
...Boeing's new stainless-steel containment box prevented heat from damaging surrounding aircraft parts and should prevent pilots from having to make emergency landings.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235304578436781345776410.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us

Are they saying that now that they have this new battery box, if the lithium battery catches on fire, they will just continue on their merry way through the sky with part of their aircraft on fire and not declare an emergency landing? That's not what it says, is it? Come on, they're not really saying that, are they?
 
  • #105
Ptero said:
Am I reading this right?

Wall Street Journal, April 21. 2013
...Boeing's new stainless-steel containment box prevented heat from damaging surrounding aircraft parts and should prevent pilots from having to make emergency landings.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235304578436781345776410.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us

Are they saying that now that they have this new battery box, if the lithium battery catches on fire, they will just continue on their merry way through the sky with part of their aircraft on fire and not declare an emergency landing? That's not what it says, is it? Come on, they're not really saying that, are they?

Yes, even with a battery "event", they will not have to divert. 3 hour ETOPS certification remains in effect. The long distance money-making qualities of this amazing airplane remain untouched. Once they arrive at the destination, I suppose all they'll need to do is hose out the box and drop in a new battery. The NTSB still wants to know why the fires occur in the first place, and presumably someday they will know, but the 787 program is now on the flightpath to financial recovery, and investors and pensioners can rest easy. No, I don't fly.

Respectfully,
Steve
 
  • #106
Dotini said:
No, I don't fly.

I don't even ride in Prius'es .

Probably in a year or two somebody will come up with a non-pyrotechnic replacement.
That'll be the penny stock to buy.
 
  • #107
Dotini said:
3 hour ETOPS certification remains in effect. The long distance money-making qualities of this amazing airplane remain untouched.

From the airlines point of view, the real money making qualities come from 5 hour ETOPS, not 3.

Getting that will depend on demonstrating actual reliability in operation.

This may be a bit of a novelty for an aircraft manufacturer. Historically civil aviation has mostly been pretty low tech, and the main risk factors to a plane are at takeoff and landing, so whether you cruise at 35,000 feet for 3 hours or 13 hours doesn't change the reliability numbers by much. And (obviously) you are not 3 hours away from an airfield when you are taking off or landing, so the higher risk factors involved are irrelevant for ETOPS.

Historically the engine manufacturers have been the ones who have to jump through hoops for ETOPS certification, not the plane manufacturers.
 
  • #108
NTSB
April 11, 2013
Public Forum:
Lithium Ion Batteries in Transportation

April 23, 2013
Investigative Hearing:
Boeing 787 Battery

http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm
 
Last edited:
  • #109
(Reuters) - Ethiopian Airlines on Saturday became the world's first carrier to resume flying Boeing Co's 787 Dreamliner passenger jets, landing the first commercial flight since the global fleet was grounded three months ago following incidents of overheating in the batteries providing auxiliary power
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/27/us-boeing-dreamliner-ethiopianairlines-idUSBRE93Q02A20130427

Yay! :biggrin:
 
  • #110
Ivan Seeking said:
Yay! :biggrin:

They are hedging their bets - they have orders for 10 more dreamliners and 12 A350s :biggrin:

Still, Ethoipian have a good safety record compared with most African airlines - only 60 accidents/incidents in the last 40 years :eek:
 
  • #111
AlephZero said:
They are hedging their bets - they have orders for 10 more dreamliners and 12 A350s :biggrin:

It was about five years past the original deadline for the maiden flight when the first one took off from Everett. They must have planned well because I don't think cash flow every became a critical issue. I was a little worried how long this would go on and how much cash they have in reserve. But I didn't hear any serious rumblings... not yet.

Time for the sales people to make up for lost time! Boeing is the number one exporter for the US.

Too bad about that clunky, old, heavy airframe that Airbus still uses. :biggrin:
 
  • #112
Ivan Seeking said:
Too bad about that clunky, old, heavy airframe that Airbus still uses. :biggrin:

Engine makers take a different view - more like selling shovels to gold miners.

We don't really care whether airlines buy Trent 700s on A330s, Trent 800s on 777s, Trent 900s on A380s, or Trent 1000s on 787s :smile:

(But it can be quite amusing watching Airbus and Boeing sales people slugging it out, when it's heads you win, and tails you also win)
 
  • #113
:smile: We have yet to see how the new design holds up over the long term. Hopefully there won't be any big surprises. There is no doubt that the 787 is a bold move for Boeing. But we like bold around here! :biggrin:

From what I understand, it isn't just the 20% better mileage [or whatever it works out to be], but also the ability to land on shorter runways that makes it appealing in certain markets, including for use at some regional airports.

I believe it is also the first commercial, passenger aircraft with only two engines, approved for transoceanic flights. I had a video on the making of the RR engines for these that was quite interesting but don't seem to have it handy. Very impressive technology!

A lot of firsts in there. Hopefully this will be the last of the wringing out.

I hope you guys are ready to compete with a flying wing. They're getting serious about that too. They've been doing scale model testing.
 
Last edited:
  • #114
Ivan Seeking said:
I believe it is also the first commercial, passenger aircraft with only two engines, approved for transoceanic flights. I had a video on the making of the RR engines for these that was quite interesting but don't seem to have it handy. Very impressive technology!
Not true. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS for a history lesson.

You may be getting confused by Boeing's advertising over two sub-issues:
(1) ETOPS ratings at entry into service for a new aircraft type (i.e. without any "grandfather rights" or service experience to read across from an earlier design)
(2) ETOPS ratings of more than 180 minutes (and it's quite possible the FAA and the rest of the world will end up with different regulations over that issue)

Actually the engine reliability issues aren't quite as simple as "more engines = better". Each engines on a twin has to be able to deliver twice its "normal usage" max power output, to handle the case of engine failure on takeoff. For a 4-engine plane the margin is less. So in normal usage the twin's engines have a bigger design safety margin. And with twice as many engines, you are twice as likely to have one engine fail per hour of flying time!
 
  • #115
AlephZero said:
Not true. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS for a history lesson.

You may be getting confused by Boeing's advertising over two sub-issues:
(1) ETOPS ratings at entry into service for a new aircraft type (i.e. without any "grandfather rights" or service experience to read across from an earlier design)
(2) ETOPS ratings of more than 180 minutes (and it's quite possible the FAA and the rest of the world will end up with different regulations over that issue)

Actually the engine reliability issues aren't quite as simple as "more engines = better". Each engines on a twin has to be able to deliver twice its "normal usage" max power output, to handle the case of engine failure on takeoff. For a 4-engine plane the margin is less. So in normal usage the twin's engines have a bigger design safety margin. And with twice as many engines, you are twice as likely to have one engine fail per hour of flying time!

The reliability issue I get, but I understood this to be more an issue of thrust and the ability of an aircraft this size to operate safely on only one engine, esp including takeoffs.

So are there any two-engine commercial passenger crafts certified for transatlantic or transpacific flights - LA to Tokyo or NY to London, for example?
 
  • #116
But no one has suggested whether or not isolating the cells would reduce risk. And why a sensor and shut-down system wouldn't solve the problem. I understand that the fires won't go out. Where are the ideas for preventing ignition in the first place? Has anyone found any papers on these two questions?

I found one half of a roach in a Twinky in 1959. No need to guess where the other half was. Crunchy.
 
Last edited:
  • #118
Ivan Seeking said:
So are there any two-engine commercial passenger crafts certified for transatlantic or transpacific flights - LA to Tokyo or NY to London, for example?

Sorry, I mussed that question - but yes, for example the B777 and A330.
 
  • #119
from memory I remember the airbus had big problems with the power system. generators overheating in the engines caused fire. hmm. how do we know it wasn't sabotage.
 
  • #120
Friday, May 10, 2013
"Boeing has put forth a superior containment so that a fire won't spread to the rest of the plane," says MIT materials chemistry professor Donald Sadoway in a statement for the FlyersRights petition. "The question is this: How long are you willing to fly without full backup power on an aircraft that is 'fly by wire'?"

MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF PETITION TO US DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (DOT), FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) AND NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD (NTSB) RE SAFETY OF BOEING 787 BATTERIES OF FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG & AVIATION CONSUMER ACTION PROJECT
BY PAUL S. HUDSON, PRESIDENT OF FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AVIATION CONSUMER ACTION PROJECT, MEMBER OF FAA AVIATION RULEMAKING ADVISORY COMMITTEE
http://strandedpassengers.blogspot.com/

May 8, 2013

In January 2013, all Boeing 787 airliners were grounded due to overheating leading to fires and subsequent failure of lithium ion batteries used on this aircraft. 1

On January 18th DOT Secretary Ray LaHood stated, “Those planes won’t fly until we’re 1,000% sure they are safe to fly.”

On April 19th, while the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) was still investigating the Boeing 787 battery fires, the FAA approved a Boeing proposed 787 battery fix, but indicated it was reviewing the three (3) hour distance from the nearest landing site that this aircraft is approved for. 2

FlyersRights.org, the largest airline passenger organization calls on DOT Secretary LaHood and the FAA Administrator Michael Huerta to require Boeing 787 be limited to no more that two hour(s) (ETOPS 120) from the nearest emergency landing site, unless its lithium ion batteries are replaced with a failsafe electrical power system proven to meet current FAA safety standards or until this aircraft has proven itself with at least 24 months of trouble free service. This is the standard used by the Joint Aviation Authorities in the 1990s to even consider allowing twin engine aircraft to be certified to fly up 3 hours from the nearest airport. 3

Lithium ion batteries have a long history of overheating, catching fire, exploding, and spewing molten metal. The two batteries used on the Boeing are large, over 60 lbs. Should they overheat and catch fire they could easily bring down the airliner, especially if it was not within easy reach of an airport available for an emergency landing. Moreover, industry wide certification standards for lithium ion batteries that are permanently installed do not currently exist. See Exhibit 1.

According to independent experts, the proposed Boeing battery fix that has received preliminary approval by the FAA is wholly inadequate to ensure the safety of the traveling public.

See Exhibit 2 (opinion of battery safety expert David Zuckerbrod);

Exhibit 3 (opinion of MIT materials professor Donald Sadoway;

Exhibit 4 (comments of former DOT Inspector General Mary Schiavo).

These known dangers have led the FAA to impose severe restrictions and outright bans on the use and carrying of lithium batteries much smaller than the 787 batteries on US airliners. 4.

Smoke and fire in US airliners is not unusual and causes about 250 emergency landings per year, and has resulted in 100% fatal crashes in the recent past . 5

The Boeing 787 is different from other airliners in that it requires five times the electric power of the present Boeing 777 to operate, has only two instead of four engines, and uses a battery known for its volatility and overheating.

Without robust testing that has yet to be done and without operational experience this fix is unproven as safe and should result at most in limited re-certification of the 787 for use only within 120 minutes of emergency landing facilities. Two hours would allow the Boeing 787 to fly transatlantic, nearly all overland routes, and many Pacific routes but not over the North Pole or trans Pacific or south Atlantic routes over 1,000 miles from a landing site.

From the limited information available, the Boeing fix does not appear to include:

a) any battery cooling apparatus at least in the rear section of the plane,

b) temperature gauges to warn pilots and ground monitoring of battery overheating or trigger cooling of overheating batteries, See Exhibit 2, 3.

Moreover, contrary to the Boeing assertions, battery fires would not necessarily be prevented by its venting system, and Boeing does not even contend that battery failure would be prevented by its band aid fix involving a containment vessel and insulation between cells.

The steel case that it claims will suppress a fire weighs 150 pounds thereby largely negating a principal advantage for using the lighter but highly volatile over older but safer cadmium batteries. See Exhibit 2, Zuckerbrod

Finally, a review of the NTSB April forum and investigative hearing transcripts and podcasts indicates:

a) the FAA has not done battery testing of the 787 battery at its tech center, but only on commonly shipped batteries in air cargo.

b) the FAA gave Boeing an extremely broad, if not unprecedented, Delegation of Authority (DOA) for the design, testing protocols, actual testing for the 787 battery certification without direct FAA supervision. Such broad based self regulation is problematic.

It raises a host of conflict of interest questions, possible self dealing and exposes the Boeing employees charged with testing and approving their employer’s products for safety to undue pressures.

It is particularly dangerous here given the known dangers of lithium ion batteries combined with the untested use of such large batteries to control the fly-by-wire Boeing 787 with five times the power requirements of its predecessor, the Boeing 777.

In March 2013 we asked the FAA and DOT Secretary LaHood to empanel a special advisory committee with outside battery experts and representatives of passenger and flight crews to review the battery fixes and testing proposed by Boeing and the certification procedures used, but received only silence from the DOT and FAA. See Exhibit 6.

NTSB Chair Hersman did respond and noted that a forum was scheduled and an investigative hearing was to be held on April 23-24 regarding the latest battery fire on a Boeing 787. But no passenger representatives were invited for participation. The Boeing fix has not been vetted by the battery technical community or the industry associations that normally recommend safety testing standards to government safety agencies. Nor have many of the technical details of the Boeing fix been publicly disclosed.

Accordingly, the lifting of the Boeing 787 grounding order to permit flights up to 3 hours from the nearest landing site is both premature while the NTSB is still investigating the cause of the 787 battery fires and does not meet the Secretary’s statement that the grounding will not be lifted until the aircraft is shown to be “1,000% ” safe.

Rather, the FAA should:

a) empanel an ad hoc advisory committee composed of battery safety experts not affiliated with Boeing or the FAA, together with stakeholder representatives of passengers and flight crews (those directly at risk), in addition to Boeing, airlines and aviation liability insurance carriers to make recommendations.

b) open a docket for public comment and post the full technical details of the Boeing proposed battery fix.

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner has been touted as a revolutionary 21st Century airliner with unmatched fuel efficiency, passenger comfort and the capacity to fly to nearly any destination on Earth nonstop. But to realize this potential Boeing must be required to meet or exceed modern aviation safety standards that it has thus far failed to do.1. FAA Emergency Air Worthiness Directive issued Jan. 16, 2013 after 787 battery fires on ground at Boston, and in air Jan. 14, 2013 in Japan, making four battery failures in one year or 52,000 hrs of operation vs Boeing’s prediction of one failure every 10 million hrs. of operation; Several other batteries replaced showing evidence of battery overheating, Aviation Herald Feb. 6, 2013; Boeing 787 had 5 incidents in 5 days .

2. www.faa.gov/mobile/index.cfm=news.read&release=14554 3. ETOPS stands for extended operations for two engine aircraft; the Joint Aviation Authorities represent European civil aviation authorities. Normally, two engine aircraft must show trouble free service for 24 months before an application to fly over 2 hours from the nearest airport will be considered. Prior to the January 2013 grounding, the Boeing 787 had ETOPS 180 certification and Boeing has sought to increase this to ETOPS 330 (5 ½ hours from the nearest airport). See ETOPS, Wikipedia showing that the Joint Aviation Authorities vetoed a Boeing attempt to certify an earlier aircraft without operational experience.4. Special conditions B787-8 airplane Lithium Ion battery installation FAA/Federal Register Oct. 11, 2007

5. E.g. Swissair Flight 111 (1998, Halifax fire due to flammable material in entertainment system caused crash killing 229 on board; UPS Flight 6 (Sept. 3, 2010 smoke in cockpit from cargo of Lithium Ion batteries crashed killing 2 person crew near Dubai, FAA then banned lithium Ion batteries on passenger jets as cargo and warned than Halon fire extinguishers ineffective for lithium ion battery fires. Other recent examples include American Airlines Eagle Flight 3773 July 20, 2012 emergency landing Peoria Ill., United 777-222 Nov. 2012 emergency landing at Gander Newfoundland; private jet carrying Ann Romney emergency landing in Denver Sept. 21, 2012 due to electrical fire; Sunway Airlines Mar. 13, 2013 in Ottawa. See gen. GAO report www.gao/atext/d0433.txt Oct. 2003.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #121
Consumer Group, Battery Expert Question FAA Dreamliner Decision
http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aerospace/aviation/consumer-group-battery-expert-question-faa-dreamliner-decision

So part of Boeing's battery fix is to not just to try to eliminate battery fires but also contain any that might break out. This means, in part, thermally insulating every lithium cobalt oxide cell within the battery's stainless steel container.

Zuckerbrod says he's impressed with the batteries' heavy duty stainless steel housing, which would contain any fire and vent fumes directly outside the plane. (On the other hand, adding in a heavy stainless steel box also cuts back on the main appeal of the batteries in the first place: their high energy density.)

However, Zuckerbrod also notes that insulation between battery cells -- electrically and thermally insulating each cell from one another and the box itself -- could pose a problem during regular use.

"As the cells are used they have to cool off," he says. "If you get above about 90 C or so, if the heat's contained and can't leak out, the battery may begin to self-heat and undergo a thermal runaway."
 
  • #122
I believe we are witnessing the decline of American excellence in engineering. Or perhaps we are witnessing the decline of excellence in the American integration of engineering disiplines into complex products. Either way. the result will be the same.
 
  • #123
Oh, you mean people could die? Maybe we should investigate this "as soon as possible."

Computed Tomography Scans of Boeing 787 APU Batteries
Solicitation Number: PUR130245
Agency: National Transportation Safety Board
Office: National Transportation Safety Board
Location: Acquisition Division

Posted Date:
May 3, 2013
Response Date:
May 06, 2013 12:00 pm Eastern

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...df7d1ec&tab=core&tabmode=list&print_preview=1

...The NTSB is planning to conduct teardown examinations as soon as possible of several aircraft batteries similar to one involved in an aircraft incident. This urgent requirement is in support of accident investigation DCA13IA037 that occurred in Boston, MA. To facilitate those examinations, CT scans of these batteries and their subcomponents are required to non-destructively determine as much information as possible about those components. In addition, batteries and battery cells of the same type which have been subjected to known test conditions will also be scanned. These scans will be conducted both before and after the test conditions are applied. Since these batteries are of the lithium ion type and have substantial shipping restrictions (including a requirement for ground shipping only using specially qualified hazardous materials shippers which would cause a delay of several days to accommodate), these scans need to be conducted at a location close to Washington, D.C. to allow the NTSB to transport the battery to the contractor and thereby avoid shipping and other logistical complications. They must also be completed within the shortest timeframe possible to provide the fastest possible receipt of this information to avoid potential future accidents involving this type of aircraft battery. Since the FAA has recently approved a plan intended to result in the Boeing 787 being approved for a return to service, the information from these tests (and the CT scans required to support these tests) is needed as soon as possible. A scan report that documents items such as the x-ray source power used, x-ray focal spot size, detector used, integration time, number of views, image pixel size, slice thickness, total length scanned, number of slices, etc. is due no later than 10 days after the end of the scanning activity. The NTSB has a requirement for CT scanning services to begin on 5/6/2013. Therefore, this requirement is urgent.

The NTSB has a requirement for CT scans of eight (8) Boeing 787 batteries cells. In addition, the NTSB has a requirement for additional scanning work for up to 40 additional battery cells or their equivalent scanning effort to be used as needed at the discretion of the NTSB. The scanning work for the "up to 40 additional battery cells" will be conducted in two installments. The cells will first be scanned in a "before testing" configuration, and then scanned again after testing has been completed with the cells. Finally, the NTSB requires at least 2 digital radiographs per component (90 degrees apart)...

------------------
This is not a fresh solicitation but rather a continuation of a contract that was insufficiently funded.
 
Last edited:
  • #124
Aviation Week comments on the NTSB solicitation:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.a...bdbbPost:34a11981-5320-414b-9285-a2aaf560aa01

Highlighting the continued concern in the aviation industry about lithium-ion battery technology, the NTSB mandated that the contract be issued to a local company, as the cells cannot be shipped via air cargo.

------------------------------

I feel my sense of reality slipping away. Everything is becoming a gray area, delegated to more or less of some accountless bureaucrat's distorted judgment of sufficiency. Engineering is now an opinion, not a science. I fear, if I open my eyes, aircraft will fall from the sky in flames, buildings will collapse and bridges on interstate highways will fall into rivers.
 
Last edited:
  • #125
Japanese pilots voice concerns:
The association is “concerned about whether there will really be no adverse impact on other systems of the airplane if the battery goes wrong,” said Koichi Takamoto, the technical adviser of the group. Given Boeing’s claims about the minor role played by the batteries, the association called on the plane maker to conduct test flights without the lithium-ion batteries to prove its solutions are effective.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...sclose-more-on-dreamliner-cures/#.UaVgI8538Yw
-----------------
This is a serious deal. Japanese pilots aren't stupid and they obviously don't trust Boeing on this. I still haven't heard the story from the flight crew that made the emergency landing in Japan with a Dreamliner full of (toxic) smoke. Anybody awake out there? Or do you think this story's over? I don't.
 
  • #126
Elton Cairns, a professor of chemical and biomolecular engineering at the University of California Berkeley, calls for liquid cooling of 787 batteries. "We know for sure that the thermal management system needs to be changed, even if there was an externally caused short circuit." Cairns is a well-known expert in the battery community, having designed fuel cells for the Gemini space program, and having served at General Electric Research Laboratory, General Motors Research Laboratory, Argonne National Laboratory, and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=260153

Analysis: Rethinking the lithium-ion battery revolution over cost, safety
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/10/us-boeing-battery-lithium-ion-idUSBRE93904420130410
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #127
JAL said the pressure sensor of the battery container in the plane showed a difference in air pressure between inside and outside during a safety check before departure, according to the media reports. The airline added that there was no abnormality found in the battery itself, the reports said. JAL was forced to use another aircraft for a flight scheduled from Tokyo to Beijing after it found a fault with an air pressure sensor in the Dreamliner's battery container, Kyodo News and Jiji Press said. The incident comes only a day after JAL and All Nippon Airways (ANA), the single biggest operator of 787s, put their full fleet of Dreamliners back into service following a four-month suspension due to battery problems. ...The difference in air pressure was put down to Boeing Co.'s faulty maintenance as two small holes on the container -- necessary for air ventilation to prevent overheating -- were mistakenly sealed when it repaired the battery system, Kyodo said citing JAL.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/international/jal-finds-fault-on-modified-dreamliner-r/695644.html

How do you say "panic" in Japanese? The battery "fix" was to vent the flaming lithium fumes outside the aircraft. That in itself was perposterous and everybody knows it. Now we learn that Boeing has problems even in effectively implementing their embarrassing kludge. Who at Boeing will fall on their sword for this? And what's next?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #128
Japanese Pilots Worry About Repaired Boeing 787 Jets
By HIROKO TABUCHI and CHRISTOPHER DREW
New York Times

Akihiro Ota, the Japanese transport minister, rebuked Boeing and Japan Airlines on Tuesday for the latest blunder. That the companies “failed to take all possible safety measures is deplorable,” Mr. Ota told reporters.

“Boeing says that any battery fire will now go out on its own, so there’s no safety issue,” Mr. Nagasawa, the Japanese pilots’ union leader, said in an interview. “But that’s on paper. No pilot would ever want to keep flying with a fire on board, whether it’s in a metal box or not.”

Mr. Nagasawa said the pilots were also dismayed that Boeing did not adjust its cockpit displays to provide more substantial alerts if the batteries started to overheat.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/b...orry-about-repaired-boeing-787-jets.html?_r=0
 
Last edited:
  • #129
Apologize in advance for jumping in here late and not necessarily reading every post in this interesting thread.

I saw the photo of the battery box and the equipment bay in the plane on Wikipedia ("Boeing 787 Dreamliner battery problems"). Sure seems like there is plenty of space in there. I have also read that the stainless steel containment box significantly increases the size and weight of the battery package.

So here is my question...

Why doesn't Boeing just punt the volatile lithium and put in NiMH or some other safer, but older, chemistry and get on with life?

They can replace the salt and pepper shakers in first class with the little bags if they need to get back a few pounds.
 
  • #130
Oops. Reality check. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-dreamliner-catches-fire-britains-163353504.html
 
  • #131


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ndn-video-page,0,3091608.htmlstory?freewheel=90921&sitesection=sechicagotribune&VID=24944521

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jul/12/fire-ethiopian-dreamliner-heathrow-video

If you examine that "singed" area ahead of the tail, you may come to the conclusion, as I have, that the fire must have been burning very intensely inside the plane to do that and the integrity of the carbon composite was fatally compromised. This means the plane is no longer airworthy and will not be able to leave Heathrow. I also suspect it will never leave Heathrow because there may well be no way to repair a plane of this composite design in the UK. This means it will have to be cut up and barged back to Washington state.

One more thing. This fire was much, much more serious than either of the previous battery fires which were responded to almost immediately. This fire, burning right through the roof of the fuselage, would have been a killer at altitude. It would have brought down the plane in flames. No question in my mind. I am also convinced that Boeing is no longer playing with a full deck, for whatever reason (which is a story in itself) and that the NTSB needs to bring the hammer down. No more Mr. Nice Guy. We have been very lucky so far but the luck is running out.

250978.gif

Boeing Flight 182, San Diego
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #132
Analysts said every new plane industrywide has had a minor electronic malfunction. But Tom Captain, aerospace analyst with the financial firm Deloitte, said those incidents are occurring less often. "Recent news about aircraft incidents draws attention partly due to the rarity of these types of events in recent times," he said.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-boeing-dreamliner-fire-20130713,0,2944574.story

I heard somewhere that this was the first commercial flight of the Ethiopian Dreamliner or that it was the first Dreamliner delivered to a customer after the NTSB shutdown. I can't believe the spin at the end of this L.A. Times article. One thing that strikes me is that the rear door has zero smoke on it. How can that be? Did the fire start at some hot spot and climb upwards and back inside the double fuselage wall? That should reassure passengers about the battery...
________________________________________
The Heathrow fire appears to have been in “a very complicated area of the structure that ties together the fuselage barrel, the tail cone and vertical fin loads,” Robert Mann, an aviation consultant in Port Washington, New York, said in an e-mail. “It will be a complicated repair -- if it is repairable. I think every current and prospective operator will be looking at the outcome.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...e-at-heathrow-renews-787-safety-concerns.html
_________________________________________
And where are the photos of the plane actually burning? They have to be out there.
 
Last edited:
  • #133
It''s a bit early to speculate.

As much as I mistrust those batteries it does not appear they are involved in this one.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/b...t-heathrow-in-london.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Air accident investigators in London said on Saturday that a fire inside a parked Boeing 787 Dreamliner on Friday did not appear to be caused by any problems with the plane’s lithium-ion batteries.

Who knows what started that fire - one might equally well speculate it was set by somebody mad at Ethiopia over their recent crackdown on radical islam. http://news.yahoo.com/ethiopia-jails-10-terrorists-plotting-attacks-125144004.html
 
  • #134
We may be seeing something developing that is even worse than the batteries.
 
  • #135
Jim, I may have been too hard on Boeing. Although batteries were invented by Alessandro Volta at the end of the 1700s - and one may have reasonable expectations of competence - Freon air conditioning has only been around since 1928, so perhaps a few minor teething problems may yet be encountered, such as total immolation. However, I remain confused by a newspaper report claiming that all systems had been turned off. That kind of narrows down the list of suspects.

Those of you, like me, with too much time on their hands may find this interesting:

FLAMMABILITY PROPERTIES OF AIRCRAFT CARBON-FIBER STRUCTURAL COMPOSITE
James G. Quintiere, Richard N. Walters, and Sean Crowley
Federal Aviation Administration
http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/07-57.pdf

In light of last week's 777 crash at SFO, this July 04, 2010 article from the Chicago Trib has an interesting, and disturbing, comparison between the 777 and 787:
________________________
In 2005, as design of the Dreamliner advanced, a Boeing analysis showed a crash that is survivable in a largely metal 777 would be deadly in a 787: The impact would shatter the bottom of the 787 fuselage and deliver a jolt severe enough to kill all the passengers. A Boeing engineering manager called the outcome a "potential showstopper" for the Dreamliner. Chicago-based Boeing says a key design change and subsequent physical tests prove the final Dreamliner design is now as safe as a metal airplane.

...A computer-generated drawing from the internal report shows that in a simulated crash, the 777's metal lower fuselage crumples. But the rest of the airframe, including the floor of the passenger cabin, is intact.
In the composite-plastic 787, by contrast, the lower fuselage is shattered, with multiple holes. And the passenger floor has broken away from the fuselage and collapsed, leaving passengers with little chance of reaching an exit. In addition, the Boeing study projected that the impact on passengers would be much more severe in a 787. The highest survivable impact in a crash landing is considered to be about 20g, meaning a nearly instantaneous deceleration equal to 20 times the acceleration caused by gravity. The study projected that at a vertical descent rate of about 15 miles per hour, the average peak impact on a passenger's spine would be 15g in the 777. In the 787, though, that impact would be 25g, the study concluded. In March 2005, Phantom Works project manager Vince Weldon sent an e-mail to Boeing's chief technology officer, Jim Jamieson, flagging the simulation as "very dire." An aeronautical engineer, Weldon worked for 46 years in aerospace, half of those at Boeing. At Phantom Works, he assessed the use of advanced composites for future airplanes, though he had no direct role on the 787 program. Weldon's concerns were examined by a panel of Boeing technical experts chosen from outside the 787 program. Its review endorsed the jet's composite-material design. "He raised questions. They were investigated," said Boeing spokeswoman Lori Gunter. "We did not proceed with the design until we were sure it was safe." In 2006, Boeing fired Weldon after an allegation that he used a racist remark about a superior in the course of pushing his concerns internally. Weldon, 72, denies that and says the accusation was a way to discredit and get rid of him.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-07-04/business/ct-biz-0704-boeing--20100703_1_dreamliner-chicago-based-boeing-crash-landing
___________________________

When I read this, I thought there seemed to be some similarities between the firing of Weldon and the politics surrounding the battery fires Boeing's contractors had experienced, as well as the early FAA/NTSB over-reliance on company evaluations. Scary. But like they say, the fat lady hasn't sung, yet.
 
  • #136
I think it's too early to call them "Firebirds"
but it bears watching.

Aluminum too wants to oxidize. Fortunately one must almost powder it to get a fire.

We'll have to wait and see what this fire was about. Just like in a boat - it's not the fibers that burn but the resin.
The report you linked confirms, like in a boat, the carbon fiber doesn't burn well but smolders on its surface. Fortunately to keep down weight in a plane there's less resin used than in boat construction.

From the Times article you linked:
Boeing made structural changes after the 2005 analysis that dramatically improved the jet's crash safety, said Mark Jenks, a vice president on the 787 program.

It redesigned rows of short wedge-shaped support posts beneath the cargo floor so they progressively collapse on impact, absorbing energy and reducing the impact felt in the passenger cabin.

That's a valid mechanical engineering approach to handling shock loads. Our power plant's reactor vessel internals had something similar underneath the reactor core to stop it gently in case of a huge vertical acceleration from an earthquake. Automobiles have energy absorbing "crumple zones".

Their design seems to have worked okay in San Francisco last week. Do you suppose that's why there was such interest in seeing the inside of the airplane shortly after the crash? Remember those photos of seats all crunched forward? I'd wager somebody was verifying design expectations.

Computer simulations have become quite good.

old jim
 
  • #137
As I understand it, the floor and the empennage of the 777 are older, heavier composite structures while the fuselage is aluminum. The floor seemed reasonably intact although, of course, the empennage shattered. I am impressed but unconvinced that a 787 would look the same and have the same survivability under those circumstances with its plastic-carbon mix. I remain gun-shy of reassurances from unaccountable Boeing executives based on speculation, and tend to lean toward engineers (such as Weldon) to find the truth. BTW, this was the second hard landing where an in-service 777 was totalled. In that accident, everyone survived and the worst injury was to someone's leg or legs.
 
  • #138
Can someone please explain this to me?

787%20batterypartsblog.jpg

FAA: 787 Batteries OK to Fly with 'Burst Discs' for Dozens of Flights
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3A7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3Ab2842d39-5d4d-41d2-9c05-eb34c89a7d20

This is also interesting. The 787 was parked next to the Heathrow Airport Fire Station. In the closest space. There's confidence for you!
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3aa517b56d-78c7-4107-98d6-64b26316500d
________________
Frank, where are you now?

Come fry with me, let's fry, let's fry away
If you can use some exotic booze
There's a bar in far Bombay
Come on and fry with me, let's fry, let's fry away

Come fry with me, let's float down to Peru
In llama land there's a one-man band
And he'll toot his flute for you
Come on fry with me, let's take off in the blue

Once I get you up there where the air is rarifried
We'll just glide, starry-eyed
Once I get you up there I'll be holding you so near
You may hear all the angels cheer 'cause we're together

Weather-wise it's such a lovely day
Just say the words and we'll beat the birds
Down to Acapulco Bay
It's perfect for a frying honeymoon, they say
Come fry with me, let's fry, let's fry away

Once I get you up there where the air is rarifried
We'll just glide, starry-eyed
Once I get you up there I'll be holding you so very near
You may even hear a whole gang cheer 'cause we're together

Weather-wise it's such a cool cool day
You just say those words and we'll beat the birds
Down to Acapulco Bay
It's so perfect for a frying honeymoon, oh babe
Come fry with me, let's fry, let's fry
Pack up, let's fry away!
And don´t tell your mamma!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #139
FS/FO. Fail Safe / Fail Operational, has always been the mantra in aviation as far as I know. This problem appears to be the total opposite to those principles. This appears to be fail / fail more, or if you like Fail/Fire !

Is there not a chemical solution (excuse the pun) to this problem, a plug that melts at a certain temperature that releases a chemical that neutralizes the reaction ?
 
  • #140
"...a chemical that neutralizes the reaction ?"
No. There have been 3 lithium battery fires on the small fleet of 787s since January. The first in Boston, in the cockpit. The second in the air over Japan, in the aft battery compartment. These were lithium cobalt. Crew and firefighters fought to put these out but as soon as they stopped hitting them with the fire extinguishers, the batteries reignited. This is because the combustion process creates all the necessary elements to sustain combustion. We are, however, told by NASA that they are safe to use in vacuum on the space station...
This latest incident at Heathrow involved a lithium manganese battery, which were banned as cargo by the FAA ten years ago and is the same formulation used in the Chevy Volt. I doubt we are getting the real story on that one but the truth eventually will come out.
In two days, the NTSB report on the deadly Dubai crash, where a flaming pallet of lithium batteries brought down a UPS cargo transport, comes out.
Have you seen all the positive press NTSB Chairman Debroah Hersman has been getting? That will come to a screeching halt with the first mass fatality accident due to a lithium battery fire. If there was one thing I would say to her, it would be that I don't care if the airlines have to change out conventional batteries from their beacons more than once in ten years and I don't care if the Dreamliner loses a passenger fare on every flight because it had to substitute safer but heavier batteries in place of the lithium cobalts. Corporate profit cannot be a consideration of the NTSB for any longer. Lithium battery technology is not safe or mature enough for use in aircraft - and may never be. The fact that no one could say WHY the lithium cobalt fires initiated is reason enough.
It should also be noted by Boeing - as it has been well noted by Airbus - that the use of lithium batteries has proven a massive negative ROI (return on investment) in light of the grounding of the fleet for months and now with the possible loss of a Dreamliner body. It's time to give the bean counters a seat in these engineering discussions to move the level of conversation from wishful thinking and Rube Goldberg tricks back to the hard reality of the bottom line.
Of course, once we get past the safety and accounting issues, we are faced with the fact that Boeing is too big to fail. They make military hardware at extraordinary profitability levels that can easily cover little problems such as Dreamliner teething or NTSB hissy-fits. They can't end up like, say, Fisker, who, with $660,000 invested per car, finally went bankrupt, because we taxpayers will ultimately foot the bill.
tumblr_mcqdxhRdhV1qb8s23.jpg

http://updates.jalopnik.com/post/34669789863/more-than-a-dozen-fisker-karma-hybrids-caught-fire-and
More
http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/article/109475/electric-hybrid-fizzles-burns-before-going-bankrupt
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #141
  • #142
This is a great line from that link:

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2021481675_boeingexecutivesxml.html#.UfLuEn0o6c8.twitter
As chief project engineer on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner program, Mike Sinnett slept with his BlackBerry set to wake him whenever a 787 Dreamliner in service anywhere in the world had any significant problem.
...
Sinnett now steps sideways to a less stressful position as vice president of product development. That means he’s in charge of developing concepts for future airplanes, beyond the current pipeline of new jets.
 
  • #143
...he’s in charge of developing concepts for future airplanes,

I guess that's execuspeak for '...you're free to think about anything you want, but don't go around the machinery...'poor guy.
 
  • #144
Well, the 787 design was a nice concept for a future airplane once upon a time. (And quite sensible compared with some of the stuff that "future concepts" departments dream up!)

The problems only started when somebody decided to build them :smile:
 
  • #145
AlephZero said:
Well, the 787 design was a nice concept for a future airplane once upon a time. (And quite sensible compared with some of the stuff that "future concepts" departments dream up!)

The problems only started when somebody decided to build them :smile:

It should be a good plane once they get the electrics squared away.

I think we're seeing a general excess of automation these days - it's the "Tower of Babel" myth, aka "Law of Diminishing Returns" . Newer and Better are not synonyms.

:-p
 
  • #146
jim hardy said:
It should be a good plane once they get the electrics squared away.

:-p

The things that Boeing builds in-house are fantastic but the complete outsourcing of the electrical system in the 787 so far looks to be a big mistake for something that complex and new.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/electronics-outsourcing-weakened-boeings-control-over-787-systems-694464/

On jets before the 787, Boeing Commercial Electronics or BCE integrated components from many different suppliers so they worked together properly. And if suppliers got in trouble, BCE stepped in and got the job done.

"Now they don't have that capability," said Jerry Packard, another former BCE manager. "That's all lost."

In contrast to Boeing's well-known move to let "global partners" design and manufacture the 787's wings, tail and fuselage, the way it handed design control to 787 systems partners, including management of subcontractors, received little attention at the time.

After this year's costly three-month grounding of the plane from January's battery problems, that approach is getting new scrutiny.

Longtime industry analyst Richard Aboulafia worries it may bring the 787 more grief in future.

"Without complete oversight of the subsystems, they might be finding systems glitches for years," Mr. Aboulafia said.
...
The 787 is the first Boeing jet with all its electronic components sourced from outside suppliers.
 
  • #147
The 787 is the first Boeing jet with all its electronic components sourced from outside suppliers.



Machiavelli gave good modern management advice in "The Prince", ca 1513:

I conclude, therefore, that no principality is secure without having its own forces; on the contrary, it is entirely dependent on good fortune, not having the valour which in adversity would defend it. And it has always been the opinion and judgment of wise men that nothing can be so uncertain or unstable as fame or power not founded on its own strength. And one's own forces are those which are composed either of subjects, citizens, or dependants; all others are mercenaries or auxiliaries. And the way to take ready one's own forces will be easily found if the rules suggested by me shall be reflected upon, and if one will consider how Philip, the father of Alexander the Great, and many republics and princes have armed and organized themselves, to which rules I entirely commit myself.
http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince13.htm
When you export your expertise you export your strength and security.


Rickover echoed it : "Where nobody is responsible, everybody is irresponsible."
Today's 'Blame the Vendor' game is pure irresponsibility.
See also San Onofre Steam Generators thread.

old jim
 
  • #148
Ptero said:
...
http://updates.jalopnik.com/post/34669789863/more-than-a-dozen-fisker-karma-hybrids-caught-fire-and
...
10/30/2012 --^

old update --v

Fisker Reveals Cause of Karma Fires During Hurricane Sandy
Published: 11/06/2012
...
There were no explosions as had been inaccurately reported. The Karma's lithium-ion batteries were ruled out as a cause or contributing factor.
...
Fisker engineers determined that the damage to the Karmas was the result of the cars being submerged under 5-8 feet of seawater for several hours that left corrosive salt in a low-voltage Vehicle Control Unit in one Karma.

The Vehicle Control Unit is a standard component found in many types of vehicles and is powered by a typical 12V car battery. This residual salt damage caused a short circuit, which led to a fire that heavy winds then spread to other Karmas parked nearby.


Bolding mine.

I seem to remember, from my days in the submarine fleet, that you should never let salt water come in contact with the lead acid battery.

And given that the Karma is a gas/electric hybrid, I can only imagine that the gasoline may have been a contributing factor to the spread of the fire to other, non-Karma vehicles.

I have a date with the coast in a couple of weeks. Perhaps I should take my somewhat used marine deep cycle battery, and throw it into the ocean, tethered to my 6 gallon outboard motor fuel tank, and see what happens.

But then again, maybe not.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #149
Ah ha!

Just did the experiment.

Do not try this at home. Although I didn't die, you will...

In trying to understand how such a thing could happen, I tried to figure out the resistance of seawater, as the google answers to my question, used bizarre, unheard of terms:

The average conductivity of sea water at 20degC and a salinity of 35g/kg is:
4.788 S/m (Siemens/meter)

Anyways, I mixed together a solution of seawater(1 pint of water and 1 tblsp of salt in a pyrex measuring cup), and tried to measure the resistance with my VOM: 1.2kΩ on the 200kΩ scale, and 85kΩ on the 2MΩ scale. Complete nonsense.

So I hooked up my marine battery in series with a 1Ω resistor with my 1 pint of seawater and came up with a value of ≈11Ω.

pf.2013.08.11.1144am..om.nacl.h2o.pb.battery.experiment.jpg

I decided that the 11Ω value was irrelevant to the problem, as while I watched, Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses were being emitted at a non-insignificant rate. I didn't dilly-dally in deciding that this experiment could have very bad results, as my 6 gallon gasoline tank was tethered to my battery, and less than a foot away. A spark would have resulted in the HHO mixture igniting, potentially igniting any fumes from the gasoline tank.

I disconnected the experiment, in a thoughtful manner, as, an acquaintance of mine, while trying to retrieve his wallet from the dashboard of his burning car, was unfortunate enough to do that, the moment his car burst into flames.

He never looked the same after that. He looked a little better after the plastic surgeons made him a new nose, but not much.
 
  • #150
jim hardy said:
...

Rickover echoed it : "Where nobody is responsible, everybody is irresponsible."

...

I quoted someone, to that effect, the other day.

I cannot find my quote, nor who else echoed that...


:cry:
 

Similar threads

Replies
108
Views
18K
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
10
Views
37K
Back
Top