Prospective grand unifying theory?

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which is the theory of everything?

  • String theory (includes M theory and superstrings)

    Votes: 8 23.5%
  • quantum loop gravity

    Votes: 6 17.6%
  • E8 (248 dimensional shape representing each particle)

    Votes: 3 8.8%
  • other (please specify. i'm interested

    Votes: 17 50.0%

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prospective grand unifying theory??

dunno if it belongs in this section but there are a handful of theories out there that try and describe our universe at a fundamental level. i just wanted to get everyone's opinion on two things: which GUT is most likely to become a theory of everything?
do you think looking at stuff at a fundamental level is the right way to go about the process?
 
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just to add. in my opinion, i support string/m theory in coming to an eventual theory of everything because it fully explains how gravity works at a fundamental level and explains why gravity is a relatively weak force. dimensions are a new interesting way of looking at things.
 


i don't really understand how quantum loop gravity works, would anyone be able to explain it to me? also, are there any other contenders for "theory of everything" (TOE) other than the ones I've mentioned.
 


Since QT and GR are based on observations, they require further explanations themselves. So any theory based on them does not explain everything and so is not a theory of everything.
 


but it could be a prospective theory of everything
 


if there are calculations that yield experimental proofs which are proven true?
 


Miba, if you are interested in the realistic prospects for unification you may have started out on the wrong foot, so to speak. I would suggest you watch the first 25 minutes of this talk

http://media.medfarm.uu.se/flvplayer/strings2011/video24

It is by a Nobel laureate, one of the authors of an important part of the Standard Model, who is still comparatively young and active in research. He is often invited to give overview talks about the state of particle physics and what he sees as the possible future developments.

After some 5 minutes of introduction he starts talking about quantitative unification to be accomplished in the next few years based on observations from the LHC and cosmology.

If you listen to Wilczek's talk about what he sees as the future of physics, especially in unification, you will learn about other things besides String and Loop and it will not be about Horava or CDT either.

The reason Wilczek is so young compared with other authors of the Standard Model is that he was only a 21-year-old graduate student when he took part in the work for which three people were later awarded the Nobel prize. This was in 1972-1973. It was about the "strong nuclear force" part of the Standard Model picture, which came together in the 1970s.

In his talk he is speaking to other physicists, trying to give an honest realistic picture. So it is not a popularization such as you might get from Kaku or Brian Greene. They paint romantic pictures to stimulate the popular imagination. Beware! :biggrin:

I think Wilczek's perspective on practical quantitative unification is invaluable because he combines the wisdom of experience of top level involvement in the 1970s with still-youthful involvement in today's front line.

I hope you watch the video. (Just the first 40% is enough). It could be 25 minutes well spent.
 
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marcus said:
Miba, if you are interested in the realistic prospects for unification you may have started out on the wrong foot, so to speak. I would suggest you watch the first 25 minutes of this talk

http://media.medfarm.uu.se/flvplayer/strings2011/video24

It is by a Nobel laureate, one of the authors of an important part of the Standard Model, who is still comparatively young and active in research. He is often invited to give overview talks about the state of particle physics and what he sees as the possible future developments.

After some 5 minutes of introduction he starts talking about quantitative unification to be accomplished in the next few years based on observations from the LHC and cosmology.

If you listen to Wilczek's talk about what he sees as the future of physics, especially in unification, you will learn about other things besides String and Loop and it will not be about Horava or CDT either.

The reason Wilczek is so young compared with other authors of the Standard Model is that he was only a 21-year-old graduate student when he took part in the work for which three people were later awarded the Nobel prize. This was in 1972-1973. It was about the "strong nuclear force" part of the Standard Model picture, which came together in the 1970s.

In his talk he is speaking to other physicists, trying to give an honest realistic picture. So it is not a popularization such as you might get from Kaku or Brian Greene. They paint romantic pictures to stimulate the popular imagination. Beware! :biggrin:

I think Wilczek's perspective on practical quantitative unification is invaluable because he combines the wisdom of experience of top level involvement in the 1970s with still-youthful involvement in today's front line.

I hope you watch the video. (Just the first 40% is enough). It could be 25 minutes well spent.

okay then will do - actually i just wanted to hear everyone's feeling on each of the would be TOE's
 


String theory is the only program which could be seen as a candidate for a ToE.

Loop Quantum Gravity isn't (strictly speaking) b/c the quantized gravitational field and other fields are treated on the same footing but are not unified (at least up to know).

E8 (248 dimensional shape representing each particle) by Lisi has been proven (by Distler) to be incapable to contain the standard model; perhaps you have a chance to ask Garret Lisi who is from time to time active here in this forum.
 
  • #10
Hi Tom,
You shouldn't just take my word for it, but what Distler actually proved is that when one embeds gravity and the standard model in E8 in the most direct way, there are also mirror fermions. Since many were misled regarding this point, I wrote this paper to make the issue clear:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.4908
and described it in this SciAm post:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=garrett-lisi-responds-to-criticisms-2011-05-04
Personally, I'm using this embedding as a starting point, and now working on how to describe the three generations and mixing.

Garrett
 
  • #11


mibaokula said:
dunno if it belongs in this section but there are a handful of theories out there that try and describe our universe at a fundamental level. i just wanted to get everyone's opinion on two things: which GUT is most likely to become a theory of everything?

LQG is not an unifying theory. And the way people fight over vanities right now is an indication that we are hopeless.
 
  • #12


In my opinion none of the listed and not listed current contenders is going to be the TOE, because none of them looks mathematically sexy enough.
 
  • #13


Oh, damn. I am becoming bored again.
 
  • #14


MTd2 said:
LQG is not an unifying theory.
Correct.

MTd2 said:
And the way people fight over vanities right now is an indication that we are hopeless.
Nobody ever claimed that it is; read Rovelli's papers, he explicitly states that the LQG research program was not started and never meant to be an unification approach.
 
  • #15


tom.stoer said:
Nobody ever claimed that it is; read Rovelli's papers, he explicitly states that the LQG research program was not started and never meant to be an unification approach.

That statement is my overall feeling about the whole theoretical community, it was not related to the first statement.

I am bored.
 
  • #16


MTd2 said:
LQG is not an unifying theory. And the way people fight over vanities right now is an indication that we are hopeless.

you're right, but surely finding a way to "quantise" gravity would be the closest yet we are to a unifying theory - more possibly a theory of everything. Just my opinion.
i still think string theory rules though :)
 
  • #17


tom.stoer said:
String theory is the only program which could be seen as a candidate for a ToE.

Loop Quantum Gravity isn't (strictly speaking) b/c the quantized gravitational field and other fields are treated on the same footing but are not unified (at least up to know).

E8 (248 dimensional shape representing each particle) by Lisi has been proven (by Distler) to be incapable to contain the standard model; perhaps you have a chance to ask Garret Lisi who is from time to time active here in this forum.

that's a shame. i watched the TED talk that Lisi gave and it seemed quite awesome - though i'd add that i barley understood it (it would be helpful if i had some kind of link to a simple explanation of all the mathematics behind the E8 model). the theory seemed to be a theory of everything because (kind of like string theory) it tells us that all the fundamental particles in our universe are different manifestations of the same "particle". Am I right?
 
  • #18


wasn't the whole idea of the Lisi's E8 model that the standard model was incomplete because of the symmetries that exist in the various dimensions rotated in different ways. the standard model simply groups particles that we already know of. if there were many more fundamental particles, wouldn't the standard model be kind of wrong anyway?
 
  • #19
garrett said:
Hi Tom,
You shouldn't just take my word for it, but what Distler actually proved is that when one embeds gravity and the standard model in E8 in the most direct way, there are also mirror fermions. Since many were misled regarding this point, I wrote this paper to make the issue clear:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.4908
and described it in this SciAm post:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=garrett-lisi-responds-to-criticisms-2011-05-04
Personally, I'm using this embedding as a starting point, and now working on how to describe the three generations and mixing.

Garrett

Lets say you manage the three generations, would your theory answer these questions anytime soon.


1. all couplings values and their relations and origin. That includes computing the behavior at all energies (and distances-up to edge of the universe if there is one(CC)). and if there is a physical cut-off or not.

2. the theory must predict particles with their masses explained.Inculding light and its clear interaction picture with matter.

3. What is charge exactly and how does the value come about.

4. the origin of Spin and entanglment.

5. how do particles behave in flight, like the double slit experiment.

6. The real source of the effect of relativity. That is of course includes what is Space and time. and what is vacuum made of.

7. the relation between all of the above.

8. the origin and the fate of the universe or(universes)

But Most of all what is existence made of, if not a mathematical imperative.
 
  • #20


mibaokula: Yes, more or less. Although the sm also includes some kind of Higgs mechanism, beyond the particles we strictly know of.

qsa: Yes, potentially. But that is a big presumption you're making. However, I'm already very happy with how E8 theory describes the charges and spin.
 
  • #21


What is the difference between the graviton and the Higgs boson in terms of how they are perceived in nature

If I'm right, the higgs boson gives certain particles mass limiting their range and velocity and the graviton mediates gravitational force. These properties seem quite related to me
 
  • #22
garrett said:
mibaokula: Yes, more or less. Although the sm also includes some kind of Higgs mechanism, beyond the particles we strictly know of.

qsa: Yes, potentially. But that is a big presumption you're making. However, I'm already very happy with how E8 theory describes the charges and spin.

With your E8 theory, is the universe one giant E8 shape or does the E8 represent each fundamental particle - much like strings represent each fundamental particle in string theory?
 
  • #23
A grand unifying theory is not really a theory of everything it is just a theory that unites the Standard Model with GR.

A theory of everything has to go quite a bit further, in particular it should explain QM. The type of theory qsa is always going on about ( :wink: ) has been proposed by http://www.nbi.dk/~kleppe/Holger/holger.html , a respected (former?) string theorist, namely http://www.nbi.dk/~kleppe/random/qa/qa.html.

(eg see the essay by Nielsen et al in proceedings What Comes Beyond the Standard Model 2007 Slovenia, or the articles by Kleppe in 2004 and 2009 conferences)

Actually I would think QM is a theory of everything, just that we haven't understood it correctly yet.
 
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  • #24


unusualname said:
A grand unifying theory is not really a theory of everything it is just a theory that unites the Standard Model with GR.
...

That's odd. There seemed to me to be a confusion at the very start of this thread because I thought that by grand unifying theory, he meant a Grand Unified Theory (GUT).

A GUT is normally understood NOT to involve gravity. It is the "quantitative unification" that Wilczek was describing and foreseeing in his talk. Unify the three forces. Make the Standard Model nice and neat, better understood, less arbitrary clutter.

It's worth getting clear about what we mean, I think. GUT is not the same as TOE.

BTW Unusualname, thanks for your idea about downloading the talk file. I may get someone to help me and try to do it.
 
  • #25


mibaokula: The geometric setup of E8 theory is that of a principal bundle. Basically, at every point over our four dimensional base manifold there is a copy of the 248 dimensional E8 Lie group. The connection field at each point describes how this Lie group twists over the base manifold, with each of the 248 different possibilities corresponding to a different kind of elementary particle existing at that point. Sixteen of these correspond to the four gravitational frame fields (one time and three space directions) times the four standard model Higgs field components. In this way, gravity and Higgs are directly partnered, and via symmetry breaking the Higgs field and gravitational frame both take on a non-zero background value.

unusualname, marcus: Yes, ToE = GUT + GR.
 
  • #26


mibaokula said:
dunno if it belongs in this section but there are a handful of theories out there that try and describe our universe at a fundamental level. i just wanted to get everyone's opinion on two things: which GUT is most likely to become a theory of everything?
do you think looking at stuff at a fundamental level is the right way to go about the process?

yeah guys, sorry for the mix-up. i just wanted to get a discussion going about the theory they think is most likely to lead to a theory of everything. i had already come to the assumption that the closest contender to a TOE would be some sort of GUT such as string theory and E8. but i included LQG because it tries to explain how gravity works at a quantum level - this might be considered by some a key stage in coming to a conclusion to a TOE since gravity is probably the most mysterious in terms of behaviour out of the four fundamental forces.

in addition to this, i also wanted to hear about other theories - other than the three i described
 
  • #27


nearly half of you put "other". would you mind explaining?
 
  • #30


garrett said:
mibaokula: The geometric setup of E8 theory is that of a principal bundle. Basically, at every point over our four dimensional base manifold there is a copy of the 248 dimensional E8 Lie group. The connection field at each point describes how this Lie group twists over the base manifold, with each of the 248 different possibilities corresponding to a different kind of elementary particle existing at that point. Sixteen of these correspond to the four gravitational frame fields (one time and three space directions) times the four standard model Higgs field components. In this way, gravity and Higgs are directly partnered, and via symmetry breaking the Higgs field and gravitational frame both take on a non-zero background value.

unusualname, marcus: Yes, ToE = GUT + GR.

E6 is listed as a possible TOE on wikipedia; is this similar in any way to your E8 model?
does your theory have any relation to E8XE8 heterotic string theory?
 
  • #31


I voted 'other' but can't specify. This reflects that if I were to take a bet, I would say that the first theory that is broadly recognized as successful successor to the standard model + GR will be different than any currently conceived models. I would also bet that, in no way, would it be a 'final theory'. Given the range of observed conditions versus unobserved conditions, I see the belief that we are close to a 'final theory' as nothing but wishful thinking.
 
  • #32


PAllen said:
I voted 'other' but can't specify. This reflects that if I were to take a bet, I would say that the first theory that is broadly recognized as successful successor to the standard model + GR will be different than any currently conceived models. I would also bet that, in no way, would it be a 'final theory'. Given the range of observed conditions versus unobserved conditions, I see the belief that we are close to a 'final theory' as nothing but wishful thinking.

so do you think that we are looking at it completely the wrong way? or could we at least be on the right track?
 
  • #33


i should have added "none of the current theories" as an option. doh!
 
  • #34
mibaokula said:
could someone explain these theories?

Each of the theories is hyperlinked to an explanatory article

@PAllen, perhaps something like this http://www.nbi.dk/~kleppe/random/trapp/u.html ?
 
  • #35


mibaokula said:
so do you think that we are looking at it completely the wrong way? or could we at least be on the right track?

Since I have no idea what the right way is, I have no idea that physicists are looking at it the wrong way. My hope would be that a lot of the results in string theory and some other approaches are relevant, say, in they way the Bohr atom was to QFT. I think there is a reasonable chance that one of the current approaches will pan out, and I would give an edge to string theory, but I think it more likely the key concepts for progress have not occurred yet.

My belief that the next major breakthrough model won't be the last is purely based on history and the fact that the observed energy scales are a minute fraction what has likely occurred in the universe. Look at the understanding of physics at times separated by, say, 300 years. Even where longstanding formulas were still useful, the conceptual basis was radically different. I see no evidence to believe there is a break in this pattern.
 
  • #36


PAllen said:
Since I have no idea what the right way is, I have no idea that physicists are looking at it the wrong way. My hope would be that a lot of the results in string theory and some other approaches are relevant, say, in they way the Bohr atom was to QFT. I think there is a reasonable chance that one of the current approaches will pan out, and I would give an edge to string theory, but I think it more likely the key concepts for progress have not occurred yet.

My belief that the next major breakthrough model won't be the last is purely based on history and the fact that the observed energy scales are a minute fraction what has likely occurred in the universe. Look at the understanding of physics at times separated by, say, 300 years. Even where longstanding formulas were still useful, the conceptual basis was radically different. I see no evidence to believe there is a break in this pattern.

i agree with you - but that's why i voted for string theory, because i felt it was the closest to an idea of a TOE; by other, i meant other scientific theories
 
  • #37


marcus said:
Miba, if you are interested in the realistic prospects for unification you may have started out on the wrong foot, so to speak. I would suggest you watch the first 25 minutes of this talk

http://media.medfarm.uu.se/flvplayer/strings2011/video24
...

Judging by history---how science typically proceeds---a realistic vision of the future would probably entail incremental progress like that described by Frank Wilczek in the first 25 minutes of his talk.

What he calls "quantitative unification" of the 3 forces at the level of Quantum Field Theory. So that basically you have a trimmer more coherent standard model---basically one material and one force---and can understand dark matter.

He says now is the right time to consider this because in the next few years we will have LHC plus new data about the early universe (observational cosmology). It is a potent combination, and the 3-force standard model already shows signs of qualitative unification.
Is begging for it, as he says. (Clearly we aren't talking about unif with gravity yet--just 3-way.)

Steven Weinberg already pointed to a resurgence of "good old QFT" when he spoke in July 2009 at CERN.

IOW today's wise heads do not foresee any wild leaps to some fantasy "TOE". It is probably misleading to imagine the future in terms of such a wild leap, and meaningless to ask in which direction such a leap might be, or what is "closest" to the right direction.
PAllen said:
...My belief that the next major breakthrough model won't be the last is purely based on history and the fact that the observed energy scales are a minute fraction what has likely occurred in the universe...

Without question. And Wilczek (who was asked to give an overview of the state and likely future of fundamental physics) suggests that the next major breakthrough model will be formulated in Quantum Field Theory.

He was talking specifically about the next unification step, and about discovering the makeup of dark matter.

When that is accomplished it will surely be much clearer what the next next unification might be.

So on the poll I would say "OTHER" and since the poll asks that we say what other we have in mind, I would say QFT à la Wilczek. Just my hunch, you could say some other line of QFT unfication that's testable and being developed: QFT du jour, QFT à la somebodyelse. A lot of people are taking this line now: the question being asked at this year's big string conference was "where are the strings?" So many of the invited speakers were not using string but instead doing QFT. Wilczek's talk explains why.
 
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  • #38


mibaokula said:
nearly half of you put "other". would you mind explaining?

I have rolled my own GUT and TOE. I am not a physicist or mathematician (or a religious freak or mysical New Age advocate, etc) but will be considered a kook.

Offered for what its worth, though... here is the most fundamental statement of the TOE held in my "Beon-Void Conjecture":

The Universe consists of Beons and the Void;
Everything else is Persistent Emergent Process.

Keeping in mind always that:

The Map is not the Territory
( a Shell map of Indiana doesn't mean
that Indiana consists of ink on paper.)

and:

The novelties of a higher level emergent phenomena
cannot be applied to lower level phenomena.
( the Downward Analogy Syndrome )

I have developed a roadmap from "BVspace" through the emergence of Huygen Pulse/Waves and "Huygens space" to the co-emergence of "quanta" (particle-like 'core' of a quanta's process) and "microgravitation" (the field-effect created by the process of a "quanta".)

Of course I couldn't do any of this clinging to the idea that quanta have no underlying physical mechanism. And I cannot be "scientific" about what cannot be systematically "observed." Primitive, immutable "entities" (Beons) as defined cannot emit a field-force: there is no action at a distance between Beons. This makes Observation virtually impossible. But mathematical modelling is possible and it seems it would be straightforward.

And so I am just another kook. But I believe that eventually a well-respected kook mathematicians with computer skills will rigorously fill out a similar roadmap. When they do, theoretical physics will be much better for it: unified and NOT weird.

d.

ps. fwiw, The term "beon" was coined to avoid confusion and a lot of typing: 'a-tomos' were considered to be 'matter' and to 'bind' in some way. Beons cannot be 'matter' and emergence from BVspace does not involve 'binding' in any way.
 
  • #39


d9090 said:
I have rolled my own GUT and TOE. I am not a physicist or mathematician (or a religious freak or mysical New Age advocate, etc) but will be considered a kook.

Offered for what its worth, though... here is the most fundamental statement of the TOE held in my "Beon-Void Conjecture":

The Universe consists of Beons and the Void;
Everything else is Persistent Emergent Process.

Keeping in mind always that:

The Map is not the Territory
( a Shell map of Indiana doesn't mean
that Indiana consists of ink on paper.)

and:

The novelties of a higher level emergent phenomena
cannot be applied to lower level phenomena.
( the Downward Analogy Syndrome )

I have developed a roadmap from "BVspace" through the emergence of Huygen Pulse/Waves and "Huygens space" to the co-emergence of "quanta" (particle-like 'core' of a quanta's process) and "microgravitation" (the field-effect created by the process of a "quanta".)

Of course I couldn't do any of this clinging to the idea that quanta have no underlying physical mechanism. And I cannot be "scientific" about what cannot be systematically "observed." Primitive, immutable "entities" (Beons) as defined cannot emit a field-force: there is no action at a distance between Beons. This makes Observation virtually impossible. But mathematical modelling is possible and it seems it would be straightforward.

And so I am just another kook. But I believe that eventually a well-respected kook mathematicians with computer skills will rigorously fill out a similar roadmap. When they do, theoretical physics will be much better for it: unified and NOT weird.

d.

ps. fwiw, The term "beon" was coined to avoid confusion and a lot of typing: 'a-tomos' were considered to be 'matter' and to 'bind' in some way. Beons cannot be 'matter' and emergence from BVspace does not involve 'binding' in any way.

...erm... please elaborate?
 
  • #40


Has there been any serious attempt to determine if development of a TOE is theoretically possible?
 
  • #41


Oldfart said:
Has there been any serious attempt to determine if development of a TOE is theoretically possible?
I don't know - so let's start here: every such attempt has to start with a definition what a ToE really is:
- a ToE must describe / predict all physical phenomena which are experimentally accessable in principle
- a ToE must describe and unify all interactions
- ...

I think here we see the first problems: what does "unify" mean? what is "all"? How shall we know that a given theory is the ToE - or a ToE? Could it be that we already have the ToE, namely string theory, but that is is not yet fully developed? How will we recognize a ToE?
 
  • #42
unusualname said:
A grand unifying theory is not really a theory of everything it is just a theory that unites the Standard Model with GR.

A theory of everything has to go quite a bit further, in particular it should explain QM. The type of theory qsa is always going on about ( :wink: ) has been proposed by http://www.nbi.dk/~kleppe/Holger/holger.html , a respected (former?) string theorist, namely http://www.nbi.dk/~kleppe/random/qa/qa.html.

(eg see the essay by Nielsen et al in proceedings What Comes Beyond the Standard Model 2007 Slovenia, or the articles by Kleppe in 2004 and 2009 conferences)

Actually I would think QM is a theory of everything, just that we haven't understood it correctly yet.

good find. Can you elaborate on why do you think that his analysis can resolve fundamental issues. I will comment later when i study it more.
 
  • #43
qsa said:
good find. Can you elaborate on why do you think that his analysis can resolve fundamental issues. I will comment later when i study it more.

Not really, I barely understand it (http://www.nbi.dk/~kleppe/random/trapp/u.html ;-) ), I just was pointing out that GUTs and extensions to gravity aren't really a theory of everything.

Nielsen is credited with being one of the early "discoverers" of string theory, but it was back in the days when they still thought it was a promising hadron model rather than unifying gravity with the SM. (Like Susskind he may be getting a little over-ambitious in his later years due to string theory fame :smile: )

(I'm sure I mentioned this a while back, maybe in a thread that got deleted?)
 
  • #44


mibaokula said:
...erm... please elaborate?

Okay.. but this probably isn't the right place. I am working on a website and trying to convert my notes and drawing over to .html and .jpg. But it amounts to quite a few pages and working time is limited.

Here is a crude first draft of abstract...

=== start of abstract text ===

BVC develops the assumption that at its unobservable, most primitive level the Universe is "simple" and deterministic; and that all observable phenomena are "complex" dynamic, emergent and persistent Processes.

Two psuedo-system primitives - S(1) "Beons" and S(0) "Void" are examined through geometry and thought experiment. Their minimalist "classical" physical feature sets leads to the emergence of behaviors (pulse/wave phenomena) in "BVspace" appearing to obey Huygen's Principle; and in so creating (from one perspective) a soft-solid "luminiferous aether" field or "H-field."

Distortions in H-field may produce persistent phonon-like processes, "quanta" and other multi-quanta "phenoms" which exhibit probabilistic, discontinuous behaviors. It is suggested that some of these "phenoms" correspond to "particles" in the Standard Model. Others may be non-photon-interactive "dark matter".

[note: In my thought experiments, both cellular animation and the emergent behavior of "oscillons" are gingerly channelled.]

The interactive motion of these process-structures through H-space mimics both "particle mass" and a weak, additive "micro-gravitational" field-force. The number of quanta involved in a phenom is proportional to its "mass". As mass increase so does the strength and range of the micro-gravitational field-force.

A second form of "gravity" is suggested in conditions of high Beon densities (e.g., neutron stars and black holes) in BVspace. Dense regions create anisomorphic conditions cause regions of H-space (and the phenoms emergent from it) to "drift" along with BVspace It is essentially the same mechanism of DeSage gravitation.

This should be testable as "process inertia" should change at the limits of micro and macro gravitational fields.

=== end of abstract text ===

Simple kinematic (?) mechanics of massless, immutable bodies can be used to model the static, continuous "classical" behavior of Beons in BVspace. Beons cannot emit field-forces and so cannot be 'observed' and so must be dealt with geometrically or otherwise mathematically, through models and thought experiments.

The Idea of a general "Process physics" is proposed (basically fQM and GR) to deal with dynamic emergence, persistence and bifercation of "process" systems (any persistent system wherein a process or change of state is possible) and the relative 'motion' of any two such systems. Basically this covers anything but BVspace -- any "system" with more or less consistent 'physical' form and behavior that is not a Beon. Typically process systems are cyclic but not necessarily "periodic" relative to another cycle (e.g. a 'clock')

Quanta, photons and mass are all dynamic emergence phenomena and the values of h, c and m are discussed as being 'event limits' (with small ranges of variance) rather than absolute constants. For mass, the difference between 'rest' and 'moving' mass values is explained by their process motion).

Beons, not matter or processes, are not constrained by h or c and do not have mass, charge, color, et al. Beons are not "point" particles and have non-zero volume.

Waveforms naturally 'collapse' in BVspace because there is a limit to the number of density waves which can be superimposed in a region of BVspace before a qualitative change occurs (i.e., a Huygens pulse occurs.)

Maps of the "Territory Universe" based on observation must be probablistic because ALL possible observations cannot be made or known, even by a Perfect or LePlacean Observer" The Map is not the Territory. The qualities of a Map do not necessarily translate into actual physical features in the TU.

Discrete maps must have a minimal 'gauge'; and not all experimentally mapped phenomena are geometrically congruent. E.g, Single-point "location" map is incongruent with a two-point minimum "displacement" map. BVC does not find either Heisenburg Uncertainty or the inability to experimentally determine location and velocity simultaneously in any way 'weird'. "Weird" is giving more weight to classical mechanical theory and Galileo than to the evidence.

The M-M experiment doesn't not 'prove' the absence of 'aether': it goes proves the fallicity of "ponderous matter".. the Earth is not a poderous body apart from BVspace, but a set of waveforms occurring upon it.. No observable Aether Drift from this.

"Rest" is an emergent property of Process. There is no useful sense of "rest" in BVspace which is not arbitrarily introduced by an observer. Moreover neither the Earth or anything else in its proximate vicinity is "at rest" or represents a suitable "rest state", except relative to each other.

The following is a list of phenomena considered "fundamental" in current theory, but are considered emergent in BVC: matter, energy, gravitation, electromagnetism, weak force, strong force, entropy.

Other nearly fundamental standard model concepts BVC considered to be necessarily emergent: gaugeable time (clocks), gaugable space ("rigid" rods), time-space curvature, life, consciousness, intelligence.

The 'primitive' concepts basic to BVC are; Extension (infinite and ungauged), Duration (infinite and ungauged), the Void (no physical characteristics other than E and D), Beons (finite, immutable, eternal and "physically" unique -- no two Beons may occupy the same location in the Void.) Barring what I haven't considered (pssibly a lot, of course) everything else can be deduced from or is emergent from these primitive concepts.

A direct result from the nature of Beons and the Void is the conservation of Beon momenta; and indirectly, the conservation of emergent 'matter' and 'energy'.

Microgravity is a hint to how easy unifying GR and QM would be granting the BV Conjecture. But BVC compatibility with GR and SR can't be fully described without delving into the details of Process Systems ("phenoms") and their relative Process-Motion.

offered for what it's worth..

d.
 
  • #45


tom.stoer said:
I don't know - so let's start here: every such attempt has to start with a definition what a ToE really is:
- a ToE must describe / predict all physical phenomena which are experimentally accessable in principle
- a ToE must describe and unify all interactions
- ...

I think here we see the first problems: what does "unify" mean? what is "all"? How shall we know that a given theory is the ToE - or a ToE? Could it be that we already have the ToE, namely string theory, but that is is not yet fully developed? How will we recognize a ToE?

I guess that I should take a step backward and ask if a serious effort has ever been made to define what a ToE is... but I'm getting the feeling that this probably can't be done by a democratic physics community, dunno...
 
  • #46


Oldfart said:
I guess that I should take a step backward and ask if a serious effort has ever been made to define what a ToE is... but I'm getting the feeling that this probably can't be done by a democratic physics community, dunno...
No, physics is the wrong place for democracy :-) Regarding your question: I would like to speculate that this has been done in the very early days of SUGRA.
 
  • #47


tom.stoer said:
No, physics is the wrong place for democracy :-)

Heh-heh...

What form of dictatorship would you recommend? Ahh, the physics summer, a refreshing change from the Arab spring...
 
  • #48


I recommend an oligarchy of nature (phenomenology) and mathematics
 
  • #49


mibaokula said:
...erm... please elaborate?

I now have a short answer as well.. "What Steve Rado said."

I just discovered his work.. I've been looking 30 years for something like his "Aethro-Kinematics"

From what little ived read so far, there are slight differences but basically substitute "Aethrons" for Beon-emergent Hp/w and all the rest follows quite nicely.

thank you for your consideration
apologies for any wasting of your time

d.
 
  • #50


Gaucho said:
Every scientist knows that the atom standard model of particle physics (SMP) is not a real matter definition, although it is a practical tool depicting our experience. It isn’t really a model, but a set of engineering strategies and math formulas to allow us to work with known phenomena. It’s the best we have, but not nearly adequate for advanced research. What we need is a real model for matter at the atomic level. It will lead us to the discovery of the unified fundamental law of physics. I call it Fortes.
With Fortes, it all starts by realizing that energy, not mass, is the Universal fundamental element. Einstein, as all of us did, readily accepted the assumption that matter is the basic substance of the universe. Therefore, everything is composed of particles even though such concept encounters many contradictions and creates paradoxes. The duality of the current definitions of light behavior is a simple example of such exasperating conflicts. Nonetheless, particles are something that we can see, feel, measure, and contain, so we imagined it. Therefore, Einstein related energy to this basic substance called mass (meaning a particle) and expressed it with his famous equation.
If energy is the universal basic substance, then mass is nothing more than a property of energy as expressed by the equation already used to solve electronics dilemmas. But this conjecture alone does not allow the formulation of an atomic simulator. Hence we developed the Fortes first postulate: The universe is defined by real four-dimensional energy organized by quantized energy states. The fourth dimensional energy is represented by a complex number that includes incremental time.
More at www.teknox.org[/URL] – in construction.[/QUOTE]

isnt the common belief that mass is energy? E=mc^2 suggests such an idea. if you look at it in terms of the anihilation of a positron and electron, their mass is converted into energy right? if you look at theories like string theory(s), everything at super magnification is made up of "strings" of energy.
 
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