Prove False: n\geq a\Rightarrow n!\geq a^n

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter 3.1415926535
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Induction
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the statement "n ≥ a ⇒ n! ≥ a^n" for natural numbers n (excluding zero) and the attempt to prove its falsehood using mathematical induction. Participants explore the validity of the induction hypothesis and the implications of varying values of a.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to prove the statement false using induction, starting with n=1 and assuming the hypothesis holds for n, then trying to extend it to n+1.
  • Another participant points out that the induction hypothesis used is incorrect, suggesting that it should focus on a specific integer n rather than all integers.
  • A similar correction is reiterated by another participant, emphasizing the need for a proper induction hypothesis.
  • One participant humorously notes that clerical errors can lead to significant misunderstandings in mathematical proofs.
  • Another participant highlights that the assumption "n+1 ≥ a" does not necessarily imply "n ≥ a," which is a critical flaw in the reasoning presented.
  • It is noted that the values of a can change with n, which complicates the application of induction, as it typically requires a constant a.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the validity of the initial proof attempt and the correct formulation of the induction hypothesis. Multiple competing views on the approach to the problem remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reveals limitations in the assumptions made regarding the relationship between n and a, as well as the implications of varying a with respect to n in the context of induction.

3.1415926535
Messages
80
Reaction score
0
I will prove the false statement, that n\geq a\Rightarrow n!\geq a^n, n\in \mathbb{N}-\left \{ 0 \right \} with induction

For n=1 1\geq a\Rightarrow 1!\geq a^1\Rightarrow 1 \geq a which is true.

Suppose that n\geq a\Rightarrow n!\geq a^n, n\in \mathbb{N}-\left \{ 0 \right \}

Then,
n\geq a\Rightarrow (n+1)!\geq nn!\geq aa^n=a^{n+1} which yields that n+1\geq a\Rightarrow(n+1)!\geq a^{n+1}

Therefore, n\geq a\Rightarrow n!\geq a^n
But for n=3,a=2 using the inequality we just proved 3\geq 2\Rightarrow3!\geq 2^3\Leftrightarrow 6\geq 8 Impossible!. Where is my mistake?

[EDIT] Don't bother answering. I have highlighted the mistake I made that rendered the inequality invalid for a greater than 1
 
Last edited:
Mathematics news on Phys.org


3.1415926535 said:
Suppose that n\geq a\Rightarrow n!\geq a^n, n\in \mathbb{N}-\left \{ 0 \right \}

That's not the hypothesis used in induction.

Ordinary induction would use the hypothesis:
n!\geq a^n where we think of n as a particular integer, not as "all integers".

and you would have to prove (n+1)! \geq a^{n+1}

So-called "strong induction" would use the hypothesis:
For each integer i: 0 < i \leq n , i! \geq a^i

and you would still have to prove (n+1)! \geq a^{n+1}
 


Stephen Tashi said:
That's not the hypothesis used in induction.

Ordinary induction would use the hypothesis:
n!\geq a^n where we think of n as a particular integer, not as "all integers".

and you would have to prove (n+1)! \geq a^{n+1}

So-called "strong induction" would use the hypothesis:
For each integer i: 0 < i \leq n , i! \geq a^i

and you would still have to prove (n+1)! \geq a^{n+1}

I am sorry, I messed up with latex. That was not my hypothesis...
 


I was having trouble too. The world will probably end because of clerical errors.
 


The problem is that n+1 \geq a does not imply that n \geq a which you seem to have used.
 


The basic problem seems to be that allowed values of a increase with n, while induction would work only if a is constant.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K