Quantization of Angular Momentum Under Boosts

michael879
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Is the spin of an electron still \hbar/2 in the direction transverse to its momentum? Classically angular momentum transforms non-trivially under boosts, so I was wondering if this applies to quantum mechanics too. A more general question would be: Is angular momentum quantized into units of \hbar under general boosts?
 
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In the Stern Gerlach experiment the spin always seems to be measured transverse to the momentum of the particle. I would ask whether it is also quantised along the direction of travel.
 
Jilang said:
In the Stern Gerlach experiment the spin always seems to be measured transverse to the momentum of the particle. I would ask whether it is also quantised along the direction of travel.

I'm more asking about theoretical predictions than experimental confirmations. Helicity doesn't change at all under parallel boosts
 
michael879 said:
Is the spin of an electron still \hbar/2 in the direction transverse to its momentum?

The component of an individual electron's spin angular momentum along any axis is always measured to be either ##+\hbar/2## or ##-\hbar/2##. Before measurement, the probabilities of these two values depend on how the electron was prepared and on which axis you make the measurement along.
 
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jtbell said:
The component of an individual electron's spin angular momentum along any axis is always measured to be either ##+\hbar/2## or ##-\hbar/2##. Before measurement, the probabilities of these two values depend on how the electron was prepared and on which axis you make the measurement along.

But doesn't that violate relativity? For a classical system, two people won't measure the same angular momentum in general. For an electron you could use the argument that it's a point particle, but for an extended system where angular momentum is still quantized I don't see how to reconcile it with relativity
 
Spin is an intrinsic property of the particle and therefore it doesn't change with boosts. We can measure its value along any direction we want and the result of a measure for that direction is going to be \pm\hbar/2.

In Quantum Mechanics one defines J=L+S, where S is the spin of the particle and L is the orbital angular momentum.
 
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michael879 said:
Classically angular momentum transforms non-trivially under boosts, so I was wondering if this applies to quantum mechanics too.
Spin is defined as angular momentum in the rest frame. Hence, it does change under boosts.
A more formal treatment involves the Pauli-Lubanski vector:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli–Lubanski_pseudovector
 
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DrDu said:
Spin is defined as angular momentum in the rest frame. Hence, it does change under boosts.
A more formal treatment involves the Pauli-Lubanski vector:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli–Lubanski_pseudovector

So are you saying we WOULD measure an electron's angular momentum to be something other than hbar/2 in general?? As I said above, it seems necessary to obey relativity, but everybody else seems to disagree
 
In Quantum Mechanics you can't really separate L and S, you always consider J=L+S. S is intrinsic, L is not.
 
  • #10
Einj said:
In Quantum Mechanics you can't really separate L and S, you always consider J=L+S. S is intrinsic, L is not.

I'm not separating them here either. I'm just asking about angular momentum quantization in boosted reference frames, spin or orbital
 
  • #11
michael879 said:
So are you saying we WOULD measure an electron's angular momentum to be something other than hbar/2 in general??

In any inertial reference frame, the measured component of an electron's spin along any axis is always either ##+\hbar/2## or ##-\hbar/2##. What changes when you boost from one frame to another is the probabilities of these two outcomes.

The magnitude of an electron's spin is always ##\sqrt{s(s+1)}\hbar = \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}\hbar##. It is a Lorentz scalar.
 
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  • #12
Right, I can see that now from the link you gave. However, classically total angular momentum isn't a Lorentz scalar is it??
 
  • #13
michael879 said:
However, classically total angular momentum isn't a Lorentz scalar is it??

In a relativistic setting the angular momentum can be written in terms of a 4-vector ##S^{\mu}## so ##S^{\mu}S_{\mu}## is certainly a Lorentz scalar. However don't confuse "Lorentz scalar" with "invariance of total angular momentum measurements across all Lorentz frames". ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu}## is the total angular momentum as measured in the frame of the background observer whose 4-velocity is used explicitly in the definition of ##S^{\mu}##: ##S^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\gamma \delta}u_{\nu}S_{\gamma\delta}##.
 
  • #14
WannabeNewton said:
In a relativistic setting the angular momentum can be written in terms of a 4-vector ##S^{\mu}## so ##S^{\mu}S_{\mu}## is certainly a Lorentz scalar. However don't confuse "Lorentz scalar" with "invariance of total angular momentum measurements across all Lorentz frames". ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu}## is the total angular momentum as measured in the frame of the background observer whose 4-velocity is used explicitly in the definition of ##S^{\mu}##: ##S^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\gamma \delta}u_{\nu}S_{\gamma\delta}##.
Also known as Wμ, the Pauli-Lubanski pseudovector.
 
  • #15
WannabeNewton said:
In a relativistic setting the angular momentum can be written in terms of a 4-vector ##S^{\mu}## so ##S^{\mu}S_{\mu}## is certainly a Lorentz scalar. However don't confuse "Lorentz scalar" with "invariance of total angular momentum measurements across all Lorentz frames". ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu}## is the total angular momentum as measured in the frame of the background observer whose 4-velocity is used explicitly in the definition of ##S^{\mu}##: ##S^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\gamma \delta}u_{\nu}S_{\gamma\delta}##.

In 4-d space angular momentum is the spatial components of a rank-2 antisymmetric tensor... And regardless, we're talking about the length of a 3-vector here, not a 4-vector or tensor. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "don't confuse Lorentz scalar with invariance of total angular momentum measurements across all Lorentz frames". A Lorentz scalar is defined as being invariant across all Lorentz frames..

I really don't see how the total angular momentum could be a Lorentz scalar, it's the cross-product of two 3-vectors and it mixes with N under Lorentz transformations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relati...ntertwine_of_L_and_N:_Lorentz_transformations)
 
  • #16
michael879 said:
In 4-d space angular momentum is the spatial components of a rank-2 antisymmetric tensor...

So? What does that have to do with anything that was stated? ##S_{\mu\nu}## is exactly what's used to define ##S^{\mu}## as is clear from the definition I wrote above. Angular momentum doesn't have a unique mathematical form-I can describe it as a 2-form or a pseudo-vector.

michael879 said:
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "don't confuse Lorentz scalar with invariance of total angular momentum measurements across all Lorentz frames". A Lorentz scalar is defined as being invariant across all Lorentz frames..

A Lorentz scalar has the same value in all frames but that doesn't mean it corresponds to (in this case) the angular momentum measurement actually made by the observer in a given frame. Clearly ##S^{\mu}S_{\mu}## corresponds only to the angular momentum measurement made by the observer with respect to which the 3-volume element is defined from the 4-volume element. It's a very simple and basic distinction.

Bill's link explains all this perfectly.
 
  • #17
michael879 said:
In 4-d space angular momentum is the spatial components of a rank-2 antisymmetric tensor... And regardless, we're talking about the length of a 3-vector here, not a 4-vector or tensor. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "don't confuse Lorentz scalar with invariance of total angular momentum measurements across all Lorentz frames". A Lorentz scalar is defined as being invariant across all Lorentz frames..

I really don't see how the total angular momentum could be a Lorentz scalar, it's the cross-product of two 3-vectors and it mixes with N under Lorentz transformations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relati...ntertwine_of_L_and_N:_Lorentz_transformations)
Well, maybe if you took a look at the reference I gave, you'd understand. Yes, Wμ is a 4-vector, but it's orthogonal to the momentum 4-vector Pμ, and therefore is a 3-vector in the rest frame of the particle. And yes, it's built from a rank-2 antisymmetric tensor.
 
  • #18
I already read that link when DrDu posted it, my confusion is how that translates to the classical realm, where L2 is not Lorentz invariant.

*edit* also, I don't see how that wikipedia answers my question at all. All the relevant information in it basically just condenses to what jtbell pointed out, that the eigenvalues of L2 are Lorentz scalars. It's an interesting page but it doesn't really explain anything..
 
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  • #19
michael879 said:
I already read that link when DrDu posted it, my confusion is how that translates to the classical realm, where L2 is not Lorentz invariant.

*edit* also, I don't see how that wikipedia answers my question at all. All the relevant information in it basically just condenses to what jtbell pointed out, that the eigenvalues of L2 are Lorentz scalars. It's an interesting page but it doesn't really explain anything..
Somewhere in this thread did we switch the topic from S to L? It started out being about S.

The Wμ vector specifically relates to spin, being the angular momentum vector in the rest frame of the particle. That's the quantity whose magnitude is ħ/2.

The orbital angular momentum is Lμν = x pν]. Which one are you asking about?
 
  • #20
Ah sorry, I'm asking about both (or either). And I get that both J2 and S2 are constant Lorentz scalars. What I can't wrap my head around is where this comes from?? Because angular momentum is not a scalar classically!

*edit* I may have explained this badly, but this question is really just about quantized angular momentum (any kind) under Lorentz boosts
 
  • #21
michael879 said:
Ah sorry, I'm asking about both (or either). And I get that both J2 and S2 are constant Lorentz scalars. What I can't wrap my head around is where this comes from?? Because angular momentum is not a scalar classically!
1) What do you mean by "classically"? Do you mean classical-relativistic or classical-nonrelativistic?

2) When you say "angular momentum", do you mean orbital, intrinsic or total? And do you mean the angular momentum (pseudo-)vector or its magnitude?

[...] this question is really just about quantized angular momentum (any kind) under Lorentz boosts
Again, are you asking about orbital, intrinsic or total angular momentum in the quantum setting? And are you asking about quantization of its magnitude, or quantization of its projection along a particular axis?
 
  • #22
Well my question has evolved a bit since the OP, but what I'm asking about now is:
1) classical-relativistic
2) I mean the magnitude of any of the angular momenta vectors
3) I'm only asking about the overall magnitude now, because it has been established that the spin vector does rotate under boosts
 
  • #23
michael879 said:
Well my question has evolved a bit since the OP, but what I'm asking about now is:
1) classical-relativistic
2) I mean the magnitude of any of the angular momenta vectors
3) I'm only asking about the overall magnitude now, because it has been established that the spin vector does rotate under boosts
Then,... provided one understands that the Pauli--Lubanski (pseudo)vector is the appropriate generalization of angular momentum in a relativistic context, its magnitude ##W^2 := W_\mu W^\mu## is indeed a Lorentz scalar.

(One also needs to know that, although the orbital and intrinsic parts of angular momentum remain distinct in a nonrelativistic context, they mix together under general Lorentz transformations. Hence one prefers to talk only about total angular momentum in the relativistic context.)
 
  • #24
michael879 said:
I already read that link when DrDu posted it, my confusion is how that translates to the classical realm, where L2 is not Lorentz invariant.

.

When you consider a bound system, e.g. a hydrogen atom, ##J^2## or, if you ignore S, ##L^2## is in fact the spin of the compound system. Hence it is relativistically invariant.
 
  • #25
Right, I understand that the relativistic quantum operator W is a Lorentz 4-vector who's magnitude shows that the total angular momentum is a Lorentz scalar. What I don't understand is how this works for a classical system, which should be identical to the quantum predictions with some limits applied.

If you treat the Pauli--Lubanski pseudovector as a classical 4-vector (rather than a quantum operator) you find that W^\mu W_\mu = 0, so I'm not really clear how meaningful this vector is outside of quantum mechanics (I understand that it describes spin so this isn't surprising at all).

I'm not really sure what the confusion is at this point, you guys keep giving me purely quantum answers to my question on how to relate quantum/classical predictions. From what I've gathered the total angular momentum operator \vec{J}^2 is Lorentz invariant, but the corresponding classical variable \vec{J}^2 is definitely not a Lorentz invariant. Even if we completely ignored spin this discrepancy would remain, and I've never seen such a huge difference between the classical and quantum realms before... Basically this is saying that if I have a spinning ball, I will measure it's total angular momentum differently at different velocities. However, if I shrink this ball down to quantum scales it will suddenly have an invariant total angular momentum?? Even at the classical level, all angular momentum should be quantized (even though its too small to detect), so that if quantum mechanics predicts that angular momentum is Lorentz invariant we should also be able to measure that on macroscopic systems...

The only possible explanation I have is that I screwed up somewhere and angular momentum is in fact Lorentz invariant classically. However I'm pretty confident this isn't the case..
 
  • #26
michael879 said:
If you treat the Pauli--Lubanski pseudovector as a classical 4-vector (rather than a quantum operator) you find that W^\mu W_\mu = 0,

I don't believe this!
I also urge you to calculate W for a hydrogen atom (ignoring the spin of the electron), even a classical one like in Bohrs model.
I read once a nice article treating exactly with your confusion and I think it was even written by E. Schroedinger himself. The conclusion was that what we call "angular momentum" in QM is in many casesr rather the spin of the system.
 
  • #27
hmm well I'll admit it wasn't the most careful calculation but I'm pretty sure all the terms ended up canceling it out... I'll double check that

But either way, this isn't a spin phenomenon that I'm confused about! Any quantum angular momentum transforms the same as spin under boosts, and their magnitude is always a Lorentz scalar as long as they commute with the Hamiltonian right? On the other hand, in classical relativity angular momentum isn't remotely Lorentz invariant! Where do these two concepts diverge??

Also, if you found the title of that article I'd be interested to read it
 
  • #28
DrDu said:
I don't believe this!

Ok well here is my derivation, I did a much more drawn out one before but it's actually much simpler if you take the symmetries into account:

<br /> W^2 = \dfrac{1}{4}\epsilon_{\mu\nu\rho\sigma}\epsilon^{\mu\lambda\delta\kappa}J^{\nu\rho}J_{\lambda\delta}p^\sigma p_\kappa \\<br /> J^{\mu\nu} = x^\mu p^\nu - x^\nu p ^\mu \\<br /> \epsilon_{\mu\nu\rho\sigma}\epsilon^{\mu\lambda\delta\kappa} = \delta^{\lambda\delta\kappa}_{\nu\rho\sigma}<br />
Where the last equation uses the generalized kronecker delta function, which is fully antisymmetric on the upper (lower) indices. Now just plugging that in,
<br /> W^2 = \dfrac{1}{4}\delta^{\lambda\delta\kappa}_{\nu\rho\sigma}(x^\nu p^\rho - x^\rho p^\nu)(x^\lambda p^\delta - x^\delta p^\lambda)p^\sigma p_\kappa<br />
Now you could go through each of the 4x6=24 terms here and show that they all cancel out (which I did earlier), or you could just note that every term is of the form
<br /> \delta^{\lambda\delta\kappa}_{\nu\rho\sigma}x^a x_b p^c p^d p_e p_f<br />
where a,b,c,d,e, and f are the different greek indices. Since these are not operators, I've been free to commute x's and p's which is why you end up with 4 p terms two with lower indices, two with upper indices. No matter what those indices are, you're going to end up with a symmetric pp term in conjunction with the antisymmetric delta function, giving you a result of W2=0. Of course none of this works in the quantum case because most of these terms wouldn't commute

*edit* This isn't really surprising, given that W describes relativistic spin (a purely quantum effect), is it?

**edit** Well I'm dumb, the entire operator is trivially 0.
<br /> W^\mu = \dfrac{1}{4}\epsilon^{\mu\nu\rho\sigma}J_{\nu\rho}p_\sigma \\<br /> =\dfrac{1}{4}\epsilon^{\mu\nu\rho\sigma}(x_\nu p_\rho p_\sigma - x_\rho p_\nu p_\sigma) = 0<br />
 
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  • #29
By focussing only on orbital angular momentum in that way you get a misleading answer. Intrinsic angular momentum in a classical--relativistic context is a bit tricky. See below.

michael879 said:
But either way, this isn't a spin phenomenon that I'm confused about! Any quantum angular momentum transforms the same as spin under boosts, and their magnitude is always a Lorentz scalar as long as they commute with the Hamiltonian right? On the other hand, in classical relativity angular momentum isn't remotely Lorentz invariant! Where do these two concepts diverge??
Can you access a copy of the Misner, Thorne & Wheeler "Gravitation" textbook? If so, it might help to study Box 5.6 on pp157-159 which covers angular momentum in flat spacetime (i.e., classical--special--relativistically).
 
  • #30
strangerep said:
Can you access a copy of Misner, Thorne & Wheeler "Gravitation" textbook? If so, it might help to study Box 5.6 on pp157-159 which covers angular momentum in flat spacetime (i.e., classical--special--relativistically).

Not that I'm aware of, I think I have a pretty solid grasp on special relativity though... Am I missing something?
 
  • #31
michael879 said:
Not that I'm aware of, I think I have a pretty solid grasp on special relativity though... Am I missing something?
I suspect so, but let's see: What is the definition of angular momentum and total angular momentum in the classical--relativistic context?
 
  • #32
michael879 said:
Ok well here is my derivation, I did a much more drawn out one before but it's actually much simpler if you take the symmetries into account:

**edit** Well I'm dumb, the entire operator is trivially 0.
<br /> W^\mu = \dfrac{1}{4}\epsilon^{\mu\nu\rho\sigma}J_{\nu\rho}p_\sigma \\<br /> =\dfrac{1}{4}\epsilon^{\mu\nu\rho\sigma}(x_\nu p_\rho p_\sigma - x_\rho p_\nu p_\sigma) = 0<br />

Ah, I see the error. You are considering a single particle. Both for a classical and a quantum particle, the orbital angular momentum does not contribute to spin.
If you use a compound particle, like a hydrogen atom, the momentum operators P and the p appearing in L aren't the same, as the first one refers to the center of mass while the second one to the momenta of the individual particles. In a hydrogen atom, you can assume P to equal the momentum of the nucleus, which has only one non-vanishing component P_0 in the rest frame, while the relevant part of J can be expressed in terms of L.
 
  • #33
strangerep said:
I suspect so, but let's see: What is the definition of angular momentum and total angular momentum in the classical--relativistic context?

<br /> J^{\mu\nu} = x^\mu p^\nu - x^\nu p^\mu \\<br /> J_i = \epsilon_{ijk}J^{jk} \\<br /> |\vec{J}|^2 = J_i J^i = \epsilon_{ijk}\epsilon^{ilm}J^{jk}J_{lm} = 2J^{jk}J_{jk}<br />

Under Lorentz transformations J^{\mu\nu} transforms like a 2-tensor, but |\vec{J}|^2 is the magnitude of a 3-vector, which transforms non-trivially and is not a scalar...
 
  • #34
DrDu said:
Ah, I see the error. You are considering a single particle. Both for a classical and a quantum particle, the orbital angular momentum does not contribute to spin.
If you use a compound particle, like a hydrogen atom, the momentum operators P and the p appearing in L aren't the same, as the first one refers to the center of mass while the second one to the momenta of the individual particles. In a hydrogen atom, you can assume P to equal the momentum of the nucleus, which has only one non-vanishing component P_0 in the rest frame, while the relevant part of J can be expressed in terms of L.

Ah your right, I have been considering a single particle for this entire discussion. I don't think that clears up my question but it does explain why I found W=0 :P
 
  • #35
O well crap, I see the point you guys have been trying to make now...

<br /> P=(M,0,0,0) \\<br /> W^2 = \dfrac{M^2}{4}\delta^{\lambda\delta 0}_{\nu\rho 0}J^{\nu\rho}_{\lambda\delta} = \dfrac{M^2}{4}\delta^{ij}_{kl}J^{kl}J_{ij} = \dfrac{M^2}{2}|\vec{J}|^2<br />

So if W is a 4-vector then J must be a Lorentz scalar... That's bizarre because when I apply a Lorentz boost to the elements of the 3-vector J the magnitude I get is definitely not a scalar...

*edit* For example, J^{\mu\nu} is clearly a Lorentz tensor, so J^2 should be a Lorentz scalar. Given that J^{\mu\nu} = x^\mu p^\nu - x^\nu p^\mu, \vec{N}=E\vec{x}-t\vec{p}, and J^{ij}J_{ij} = 2|\vec{J}|^2, you find that J^2 = 2|\vec{J}|^2 - 2|\vec{N}|^2. Now we know that the left hand side of this equation is a scalar, so the right hand side must be too. The N vector can be arbitrarily varied through Lorentz transformations though (|\vec{N}|^2=E^2 |\vec{x}|^2 +t^2 |\vec{p}|^2 - 2Et\vec{x}\cdot\vec{p}), so |\vec{J}|^2 can't be a scalar!

**edit** yea my logic in the first part of this post is flawed, because I fixed a reference frame! So the equation should really read:
<br /> W^2 = \dfrac{M^2}{2}|\vec{J}_0|^2<br />
Where \vec{J}_0 is the angular momentum in the rest frame of P. This doesn't mean that the magnitude of the angular momentum is fixed!
 
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  • #36
Can anyone clear this up? The only way for |\vec{J}|^2 to be a Lorentz scalar is if |\vec{N}|^2 = E^2|\vec{x}|^2+t^2|\vec{p}|^2-2Et\vec{x}\cdot\vec{p} is also a scalar. However, it is incredibly easy to show that this quantity is NOT a scalar.
 
  • #37
michael879 said:
Can anyone clear this up? The only way for |\vec{J}|^2 to be a Lorentz scalar is if |\vec{N}|^2 = E^2|\vec{x}|^2+t^2|\vec{p}|^2-2Et\vec{x}\cdot\vec{p} is also a scalar. However, it is incredibly easy to show that this quantity is NOT a scalar.
So? What exactly are you trying to "clear up"?
 
  • #38
strangerep said:
So? What exactly are you trying to "clear up"?

Everybody on this thread has claimed that total quantum angular momentum is a Lorentz scalar, but I pretty clearly showed that it can't be, and I really don't understand why anybody would think it was? I mean yes, the total angular momentum of a system in it's rest frame is a "scalar" in the sense that everybody agrees on it's value. But you've fixed a frame here, so in no way is this a true scalar...
 
  • #39
Nobody said ##|\vec{S}|^2## is a Lorentz scalar. What was stated, and what is absolutely trivial to see, is that ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu}## is a Lorentz scalar. The equality ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu} = |\vec{S}|^2## clearly only holds in the instantaneous rest frame of ##u^{\mu}##, the 4-velocity with respect to which ##S^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\alpha\beta}u_{\nu}S_{\alpha\beta}## is defined. It's as simple as that.
 
  • #40
WannabeNewton said:
Nobody said ##|\vec{S}|^2## is a Lorentz scalar. What was stated, and what is absolutely trivial to see, is that ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu}## is a Lorentz scalar. The equality ##S_{\mu}S^{\mu} = |\vec{S}|^2## clearly only holds in the instantaneous rest frame of ##u^{\mu}##, the 4-velocity with respect to which ##S^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\alpha\beta}u_{\nu}S_{\alpha\beta}## is defined. It's as simple as that.

Then why bring up S^\mu at all? My question was whether \vec{S} is frame dependent or not. That is: If I make a measurement of an electron's spin will it always be \hbar/2 or will it be dependent on the velocity of the electron and the orientation of the measurement?

If you take |S_i|=\hbar/2 only in the rest frame of a particle, and say that the angular momentum will deviate under measurements in another frame, there is still a problem! What about the photon, which has no rest frame?
 
  • #41
michael879 said:
Then why bring up S^\mu at all? My question was whether \vec{S} is frame dependent or not.

\vec{ S } = \frac{1}{2} \vec{ \sigma }

Are Pauli's matrices frame dependent?
 
  • #42
samalkhaiat said:
\vec{ S } = \frac{1}{2} \vec{ \sigma }

Are Pauli's matrices frame dependent?

The pauli matrices are used in non-relativistic QM, so I suspect that they would be invariant under boosts. HOWEVER, they are NOT invariant under rotations, so I would also guess that in a relativistic quantum theory the spin operators would also vary under boosts. Also ##S^\mu## is a 4-(pseudo?)vector, that transforms appropriately under Lorentz transformations. This would naively make the 3-vector component ##\vec{S}## frame dependent.

Also, I think it has already been established in this thread that the spin vector IS frame dependent, which is why I rephrased the question to whether or not the MAGNITUDE of the spin vector is also frame dependent. In classical relativistic physics, it is easy enough to show that the magnitude of an angular momentum can change under boosts (depending on their relative orientation). I would be shocked if quantum spin did not obey this same relation, as it would appear to violate Lorentz invariance...
 
  • #43
michael879 said:
The pauli matrices are used in non-relativistic QM, so I suspect that they would be invariant under boosts.
Your frist sentence DOES NOT implies your second sentence. What kind of reasoning is this?

HOWEVER, they are NOT invariant under rotations,

Can you prove this to me? Is the NUMBER 1 invariant under rotation?

Also ##S^\mu## is a 4-(pseudo?)vector, that transforms appropriately under Lorentz transformations.
This is the only correct statement I read in this post.

This would naively make the 3-vector component ##\vec{S}## frame dependent.
I think you need to formulate a meaningful question, otherwise you will get meaningless answer.

Also, I think it has already been established in this thread that the spin vector IS frame dependent,
Has it, well I don't usually read long threads, but I can tell you if that is true it will be the greatest DISCOVERY of this century, because one can simply choose a frame and see a fermion rurns into boson.
I would suggest you read about the representation of Lorentz group, and understand the difference between massive and massless eigenvalues of its Casmir operator. I wrote (some time ago) a long post explaining these stuff, I will link to it if I can find it.
 
  • #44
samalkhaiat said:
Your frist sentence DOES NOT implies your second sentence. What kind of reasoning is this?
I said I "suspect", I never offered any proof. We were talking about boosts in a non-relativistic theory, so its pretty irrelevant what the answer is...

samalkhaiat said:
Can you prove this to me? Is the NUMBER 1 invariant under rotation?
The pauli matrices, when used in the spin operator, transform like a 3-vector. σz transforms into σx under a 90° rotation around the y axis. So yes, they are very frame dependent...
samalkhaiat said:
Has it, well I don't usually read long threads, but I can tell you if that is true it will be the greatest DISCOVERY of this century, because one can simply choose a frame and see a fermion rurns into boson.
I would suggest you read about the representation of Lorentz group, and understand the difference between massive and massless eigenvalues of its Casmir operator. I wrote (some time ago) a long post explaining these stuff, I will link to it if I can find it.
Maybe you should read a thread before you comment on it... My question has changed quite a bit throughout this thread. And no, the frame dependence of spin is not a great discovery and is actually pretty boring. I was referring to the rotation of the spin vector when changing reference frames, NOT a change in the magnitude.

My question here is really simple, and still hasn't been answered.. Let me just try to make it as specific as possible:

I have a massive system in a state with some angular momentum, let's say \hbar. If I were to measure its total angular momentum (assuming this is possible, I don't really see how one would), would I always measure \sqrt{2}\hbar? From the responses in this thread the answer is yes, which led to the question: why? In classical relativistic mechanics the total angular momentum of any system is not Lorentz invariant, and can be altered by boosting the system. How can total angular momentum go from being the magnitude of a 3-vector, to being a Lorentz scalar in the transition from classical to quantum mechanics?? Surely all classical systems can be described as very large quantum systems, so shouldn't all angular momenta be lorentz scalars??
 
  • #45
michael879 said:
The pauli matrices, when used in the spin operator, transform like a 3-vector
.
No, they DO NOT transform much in the same way that ordinary numbers do not transform. This seems to become a common misunderstanding now days. So, let me explain to you how the spin vector transforms under an SO(3) rotation. The spin vector of one particle state is given by
S_{ i } = \int d^{ 3 } x \ \psi^{ \dagger } ( x ) \sigma_{ i } \psi ( x ) \ , \ \ (1)
where \psi ( x ) is the spinor “wave function”. Being a 3-vector, it has to obey the same (infinitesimal) transformation law of the coordinates:
\bar{ x }_{ i } = x_{ i } + \omega_{ i j } x_{ j } \ ,
where
\omega_{ 1 2 } = \theta_{ 3 } , \ \omega_{ 2 3 } = \theta_{ 1 } , \ \omega_{ 3 1 } = \theta_{ 2 } ,
are the infinitesimal rotation angles about the coordinates z, x and y. So, the spin vector must transform according to
\bar{ S }_{ i } = S_{ i } + \omega_{ i j } S_{ j } \ . \ \ \ (2)
Now comes the important point: under space rotation, the transformation of the spin vector rests entirely upon the spinors (NOT THE SIGMA’S). That is
\bar{ S }_{ i } = \int d^{ 3 } x \bar{ \psi }^{ \dagger } \sigma_{ i } \bar{ \psi } \ . \ \ (3)
So, eq(2) has to be achieved by the infinitesimal transformations
\bar{ \psi } = ( 1 + \eta ) \psi , \ \ \ \bar{ \psi }^{ \dagger } = \psi^{ \dagger } ( 1 + \eta^{ \dagger } ) \ . \ \ (4)
To determine this transformation law (i.e. to find \eta), first we observe that
\bar{ \psi }^{ \dagger } \bar{ \psi } = \psi^{ \dagger } ( 1 + \eta^{ \dagger } ) ( 1 + \eta ) \psi \equiv \psi^{ \dagger } \psi \ ,
is a scalar only if
\eta^{ \dagger } = - \eta \ . \ \ \ (5)

Putting (5) and (4) in (3), we find
\bar{ S }_{ i } = S_{ i } + \int d^{ 3 } x \ \psi^{ \dagger } ( \sigma_{ i } \eta - \eta \sigma_{ i } ) \psi \ . \ \ (6)
Now, comparing (6) with (2) leads to
[ \sigma_{ i } , \eta ] = \omega_{ i j } \sigma_{ j } \ .
This system of equations can be solved unambiguously by
\eta = \frac{ i }{ 2 } ( \omega_{ 1 2 } \sigma_{ 3 } + \omega_{ 2 3 } \sigma_{ 1 } + \omega_{ 3 1 } \sigma_{ 2 } ) = \frac{ i }{ 2 } \vec{ \theta } \cdot \vec{ \sigma } \ .
We recognise (the exponential of) this (I hope) as the correct SO(3) = SU(2) / Z_{ 2 } unitary transformation of spinors. So, you must keep this in mind, coordinate transformations do not change the matrices which generate the unitary transformations in Hilbert space. So, when you make coordinate transformations, Dirac and Pauli matrices must be treated like ordinary numbers.


Maybe you should read a thread before you comment on it...
Yeah thanks, maybe next time :)

My question here is really simple, and still hasn't been answered.. Let me just try to make it as specific as possible:

I have a massive system in a state with some angular momentum, let's say \hbar. If I were to measure its total angular momentum (assuming this is possible, I don't really see how one would), would I always measure \sqrt{2}\hbar? From the responses in this thread the answer is yes, which led to the question: why? In classical relativistic mechanics the total angular momentum of any system is not Lorentz invariant, and can be altered by boosting the system. How can total angular momentum go from being the magnitude of a 3-vector, to being a Lorentz scalar in the transition from classical to quantum mechanics?? Surely all classical systems can be described as very large quantum systems, so shouldn't all angular momenta be lorentz scalars??
The magnitude of spin angular momentum IS the eigen-value of the INVARIANT Casmir operator. In the non-relativistic (SO(3)) case, this SO(3)-INVARIANT is given by s ( s + 1 ), and in the (massive) relativistic (SO(3 , 1)) case, this SO(1,3)-INVARIANT is given by - m^{ 2 } s ( s + 1 ).
 
  • #46
Sam,

Since michael879 seems ungrateful for your efforts, I'd like to thank you in public for persevering patiently in this thread (which I and other SAs had essentially given up on), and the (obviously-nontrivial) effort involved in your post #45 above.

Michael879,

FYI, Sam is one of the most knowledgeable people I've ever met on the Internet. Therefore, it would be in your interests to soften your attitude. Part of the reason why you hadn't got a satisfying answer previously lies in the ambiguity of your posts. E.g., when talking about "vectors" in the context of both the non-relativistic and relativistic cases, ambiguities can sometimes be minimized by saying "3-vector" or "4-vector" explicitly. Not doing so can lead to misunderstanding and talking at crossed purposes.
 
  • #47
strangerep said:
Sam,

Since michael879 seems ungrateful for your efforts, I'd like to thank you in public for persevering patiently in this thread (which I and other SAs had essentially given up on), and the (obviously-nontrivial) effort involved in your post #45 above.


Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here helping others understand the mathematical tools necessary for comprehending the physical world and appreciating its beauty. I wish I have more time to spare, and contribute more in here. It is fun to be here even though it is not very challenging.:redface:

Students always ask: “How can you solve commutator equations?” So, for the sake of completeness, I will now solve the following equations from post #45
[ \sigma_{ i } , \eta ] = \omega_{ i j } \sigma_{ j } \ . \ \ \ (1)
Recall that \sigma_{ i } together with 2 by 2 identity matrix I form a complete set for expanding any 2 by 2 matrix. So, we may write (repeated indices are summed over)
\eta = c I + c_{ j } \sigma_{ j } \ .
Now, equation (5) in post# 45 leads to the following sequence of implications
eq(5) \ \Rightarrow \ \eta \in su(2) \ \Rightarrow \ \mbox{ Tr } \eta = 0 \ \Rightarrow \ c = 0 \ .
Therefore
\eta = c_{ j } \ \sigma_{ j } \ . \ \ \ (2)
Our task now is finding the constant numbers c_{ i }. From (1) and (2), we get
\omega_{ i k } \ \sigma_{ k } = c_{ j } \ [ \sigma_{ i } , \sigma_{ j } ] \ . \ \ (3)
Using the Lie algebra of SU(2)
[ \sigma_{ i } , \sigma_{ j } ] = 2 i \ \epsilon_{ i j k } \ \sigma_{ k } \ ,
in the RHS of equation (3), we find
\omega_{ i k } \ \sigma_{ k } = 2 i \ c_{ j } \ \epsilon_{ i j k } \ \sigma_{ k } \ . \ \ (4)
Anti-commuting both sides of (4) with \sigma_{ n }, and using the Clifford algebra \{ \sigma_{ n } , \sigma_{ k } \} = 2 \delta_{ n k }, we find
\epsilon_{ i j n } \ c_{ j } = - \frac{ i }{ 2 } \ \omega_{ i n } \ . \ \ \ (5)
Contracting both sides of (5) with \epsilon_{ l m n }, and using the identity
\epsilon_{ l m n } \ \epsilon_{ i j n } = \delta_{ l i } \ \delta_{ m j } - \delta_{ l j } \ \delta_{ m i } \ ,
we find
\delta_{ l i } \ c_{ m } - \delta_{ m i } \ c_{ l } = \frac{ - i }{ 2 } \omega_{ i n } \ \epsilon_{ l m n } \ . \ \ \ (6)
Contracting (6) with \delta_{ i m }, we find
c_{ l } - 3 \ c_{ l } = \frac{ - i }{ 2 } \ \omega_{ i n } \ \epsilon_{ l i n } \ .
Thus
c_{ j } = \frac{ i }{ 4 } \ \epsilon_{ j i n } \ \omega_{ i n } \ . \ \ \ (7)
Substituting (7) in (2), we get our final solution
\eta = \frac{ i }{ 4 } \ \epsilon_{ j i n } \ \omega_{ i n } \ \sigma_{ j } = \frac{ i }{ 2 } ( \omega_{ 1 2 } \ \sigma_{ 3 } + \omega_{ 2 3 } \ \sigma_{ 1 } + \omega_{ 3 1 } \ \sigma_{ 2 } ) \ ,
or
\eta = \frac{ i }{ 2 } \theta_{ i } \ \sigma_{ i } \ \ .

Sam
 
  • #48
Ok I'm just coming off as a jackass here and my question hasn't been answered at all, so I'm giving up.

One last thing before I leave this thread:
samalkhaiat said:
.
Now comes the important point: under space rotation, the transformation of the spin vector rests entirely upon the spinors (NOT THE SIGMA’S). That is
\bar{ S }_{ i } = \int d^{ 3 } x \bar{ \psi }^{ \dagger } \sigma_{ i } \bar{ \psi } \ . \ \ (3)
I would argue this is totally just a matter of semantics. I said something like "when you rotate your frame of reference, apply a rotation to all operators", and you're telling me "no, that's wrong you need to rotate all the wave functions instead". Just look at your equation (1), if you rotate the spinors you end up with: spinor * R * sigma * R * spinor. If instead you rotate sigma you also end up with: spinor * R * sigma * R * spinor. In the end the math is identical so I really don't see why this even needed to be brought up in this discussion...
 
  • #49
Since michael879 is "leaving this thread", maybe I shouldn't bother further. But for the benefit of other readers...

michael879 said:
Just look at your equation (1), if you rotate the spinors you end up with: spinor * R * sigma * R * spinor. If instead you rotate sigma you also end up with: spinor * R * sigma * R * spinor. In the end the math is identical [...].
Wrong.

One must also apply the rotation to the "i" index on both sides. The R's are 2x2 matrices, whereas a rotation on the "i" index involves a 3x3 matrix which I'll denote by D. The transformation of the sigmas is then more like:
$$\sigma'_i ~=~ D_i^{~j} R^\dagger \sigma_j R$$The effect of D cancels the effect of the two R's, leaving each sigma unchanged, i.e., ##\sigma'_i = \sigma_i##.

A similar thing happens in relativistic case with the Dirac equation and gamma matrices. Each gamma matrix remains unchanged under a Lorentz transformation. (For more detail, see any textbook on relativistic quantum mechanics.)
 
  • #50
strangerep said:
Since michael879 is "leaving this thread", maybe I shouldn't bother further. But for the benefit of other readers...

Wrong.

One must also apply the rotation to the "i" index on both sides. The R's are 2x2 matrices, whereas a rotation on the "i" index involves a 3x3 matrix which I'll denote by D. The transformation of the sigmas is then more like:
$$\sigma'_i ~=~ D_i^{~j} R^\dagger \sigma_j R$$The effect of D cancels the effect of the two R's, leaving each sigma unchanged, i.e., ##\sigma'_i = \sigma_i##.

A similar thing happens in relativistic case with the Dirac equation and gamma matrices. Each gamma matrix remains unchanged under a Lorentz transformation. (For more detail, see any textbook on relativistic quantum mechanics.)

Then remove the D SO(3) rotation?? You're applying the rotation AND its inverse, so of course you end up at the same pauli matrix. This seems like a completely trivial issue of passive vs. active transformations.. Any observable will have the form &lt;\psi|O|\psi&#039;&gt; which under a global rotation becomes &lt;\psi|R^{-1}OR|\psi&#039;&gt; regardless of whether you apply the rotation R to the wavefunctions \psi or the operators O!

Here's an easy example: Rotate your reference frame by 90° around the z axis. The SU(2) rotation matrix is
\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\left(1-i\sigma_z\right)
if you apply this rotation to the three pauli matrics you get:
\sigma_z\rightarrow\sigma_z
\sigma_x\rightarrow-\sigma_y
\sigma_y\rightarrow\sigma_x
which is exactly the same as applying the SO(3) rotation to the coordinate axes (i.e. D "applied" to the pauli indices in your notation), or applying the SU(2) rotation to the wave function.

What you're doing is applying all 3 methods, pointing out that two of them cancel out and claiming the third one is "correct". Passive transformations are the inverses of their respective active transformations though, so I could just as easily claim that D (the passive rotation of the coordinate system) cancels out the rotation of the wave function and rotating the pauli matrices is "correct" (the alternate active rotation).

I am just baffled how this thread became about something so irrelevant..
 
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