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Quantum Behavior As Extreme Classical Behavior

  1. May 19, 2013 #1
    Why can't quantum behavior be explained as an extreme version of classical behavior?

    For instance, the idea of a small quantum particle being in superposition could be explained by that particle switching between 2 or more states at an extremely high frequency. How high a frequency? Well, on the order of a Planck Length or Planck Unit.

    The only addendum to classical behavior that would be required would be non-locality or tunneling (ie. macroscopic objects are too big to tunnel, but quantum-sized objects are small enough to squeeze through the cracks)
     
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  3. May 19, 2013 #2

    micromass

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    How would you explain the Stern-Gerlach experiment as extreme classical behavior?
     
  4. May 19, 2013 #3
    Hmm, so I just did a quick read on Stern-Gerlach, and it showed that atoms have spin. So what's the problem? How is that irreconcilable with classical mechanics? In large macroscopic objects, the tiny quantum-scale forces would not be large enough to impart an apparent spin. In quantum-scale objects, those forces would be large enough to impart spin.

    A leaf blowing in the breeze can be spun around easily with all the currents and eddies. But a large airplane is too big to be spun around like that so easily. So why can't classical mechanics offer an adequate explanation for this?
     
  5. May 19, 2013 #4

    bhobba

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    Check out Susskinds lectures - he explains it masterfully and clearly:
    http://www.newpackettech.com/Resources/Susskind/PHY30/QuantumEntanglementPart1_Overview.htm

    But basically you have things like Bells theorem:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem

    It shows if you assume classical behavior (in this case the very basic property of local realism ie properties are only influenced by local surroundings) then it leads to predictions at variance with what experiments show - but QM is in full agreement with them. The lectures above gives the full detail.

    There are other things as well. For example, classically if you have two particles, say particle 1 and particle 2, you can tell them apart so that if you exchange them so you have particle 2 and particle 1 then that is different than before the exchange. If you assume this very obvious classical rule then you can derive a property of gasses called the Maxwell Boltzmann distribution:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell–Boltzmann_distribution

    But weirdly this doesn't work for quantum particles - when you exchange them there is no difference - you get either the Bose-Einstein distribution:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose–Einstein_statistics

    Or the Fermi-Dirac distribution:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi–Dirac_statistics

    Thanks
    Bill
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  6. May 19, 2013 #5
    I still don't see why locality and non-locality can't be differentiated for through classical mechanics.

    I can't walk through a screen door, but certainly the breeze can move through it. Classical mechanics can explain that just fine.

    By the same token, I as a macroscopic entity can't tunnel-jump to some remote location, but a small quantum-scale object can.
    I as a macroscopic entity can't influence any other object at a non-local distance, but a small quantum-scale object can. It can do so just like the air particles can pass through the screen door while I can't. I don't see anything in this that inherently thwarts classical ideas, just as Special Relativity doesn't screw up Relativity.
     
  7. May 19, 2013 #6

    Doc Al

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    What's interesting about the Stern-Gerlach experiment is that the spin values are quantized. That's what you would need to explain classically.
     
  8. May 19, 2013 #7

    dlgoff

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    But can classical mechanics explain these electrons behaving like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCoiyhC30bc&lr
     
  9. May 19, 2013 #8
    Yeah, I know, I've seen the double-slit explanation countless times, and it still puzzles me as much today as it did 25 years ago when I first saw it. Here's more kid-friendly video for laymen like me:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc



    So they say that the results of the experiment changed when they introduced a "detector", but they don't say exactly what the detector is or what its mechanism of detection is. Obviously the introduction of the detector changed the experiment. But even before they introduced the detector, weren't they likewise "observing" the electrons when they saw the fringe pattern?

    To me, the presence of wave behavior while firing particles would intuitively (classically) indicate that those particles are traveling through a medium. If you fire a bunch of projectiles through a medium - even one at a time - the projectiles will interact with the medium to produce waves.

    It's still not clear to me what the detector was doing exactly. Was it intercepting electrons at some point?
     
  10. May 19, 2013 #9

    bhobba

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    Duplicate post
     
  11. May 19, 2013 #10

    bhobba

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    Susskinds lectures I gave the link to explains this in detail - please view them.

    The detector becomes entangled with the particle localizing it so it goes through one hole only hence you do not get an interference pattern.

    In fact its this weird phenomena of entanglement that is the rock bottom thing that distinguishes classical from quantum behavior:
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0911.0695

    Thanks
    Bill
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  12. May 19, 2013 #11
    Okay, so here's an explanation with a little more detail on what the detectors were doing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E

    So leaving the speaker's hokey "consciousness" claims aside, the explanation still says that the electrons "knew" when they were going to end up as a magnetic recording or not, and changed their behavior accordingly. To me, that intuitively implies something like a circuit (ie. electric current doesn't flow unless there's a full circuit path available ahead of it, so in that sense the electrons "know" whether to flow or not)

    So why can't a circuit be used as a classical analogy here?
     
  13. May 19, 2013 #12
    Then you end up with the De Broglie-Bohm pilot wave theory, which is still definitely not classical in any way.
     
  14. May 20, 2013 #13
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  15. May 20, 2013 #14
    There is a medium involved. As mentioned in my earlier post, quantum mechanically this would correspond to the pilot wave theory. Unless somehow you think that the idea of photons and electrons emitting guiding waves is classical, I still don't see this "proves" that the double slit experiment with photons and electrons can be explained classically.
     
  16. May 20, 2013 #15
    In addition to spin, entanglement, Bell and the double-slit experiment (which are good examples):

    The uncertainty principle(s) (relation(s)) is also a nonclassical feature, quite counterintuitive. Here's a nice clip demonstrating it.

    I'd also say that antimatter, annihilation & pair production are nonclassical features. Two massive particles (e.g. electron + positron) can annihilate into two photons - who would have expected that in classical physics? :smile:
     
  17. May 20, 2013 #16

    read:
    Quantum Physics from Classical Physics with an epistemic restriction
    https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=611383&


    and briefly
    physics as an interface to underlying structure
    https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=648636
     
  18. May 21, 2013 #17
    Alright, so the rules governing quantum behavior are markedly different than those governing classical behavior. But it's all still happening in the same universe, so it's not like the "quantum world" is truly separate from the "classical world" is it?

    So is there a sliding scale of transition between quantum rules of behavior and classical rules of behavior? Or does it transition abruptly? Can we say that classical behavior is an emergent behavior arising from quantum behavior? Is it reasonable to think that what happens on the macro scale is the aggregate result of what happens on the small scale?
     
  19. May 21, 2013 #18
    Another thing about the double slit experiment that puzzles me.

    When the electron(s) passes through the double slit, it only interferes with itself but does not "collapse" by interacting with itself. It's when the electron(s) interact with a detector that its wave "collapses"

    You say this collapse is due to entanglement? So no entanglement means no collapse?

    And electrons automatically interfere with other electrons, right? So in that case, entanglement is unavoidable? Is there any circumstance where an electron can collapse another electron's wave?
     
  20. May 21, 2013 #19

    bhobba

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    Everything is quantum - the classical world emerges from entanglement and decoherence.

    For example all quantum particles of the same type are indistinguishable - the reason atoms etc can be distinguished at our classical level is entanglement. At a low enough temperature you have what are called Bose Einstein Condensates where the atoms have totally lost their individuality and they behave as one single giant atom with very strange properties. Raising the temperature means you are entangling it with the environment and that's when it starts to behave classically and the constituent atoms/molecules become distinguishable.

    Thanks
    Bill
     
  21. May 21, 2013 #20
    Alright, but if I shoot a basketball at a double slit, it's not going to create an interference pattern. How large an object can I use, and still get the interference pattern?

    I've read that it's possible to use C-60 buckyballs and still get the interference pattern.
    I've read they've even gone larger than that with even bigger molecules and gotten the interference pattern.

    So is it a gradual transitioning of wave propagation to particle model?
     
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