Question on a particular collection of sets

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a mathematical question regarding a collection of sets, specifically focusing on the properties of a collection \(\mathcal{M}\) derived from a non-empty collection \(\mathcal{G}\) of subsets of a set \(X\). Participants explore the implications of closure properties under finite intersections and unions, as well as the conditions under which certain sets belong to \(\mathcal{M}\).

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Post 1 introduces the collection \(\mathcal{M}\) and poses the question of whether \(X \in \mathcal{M}\) under given conditions.
  • Post 2 suggests that it suffices to show that if \(A, B \in \mathcal{G}\), then \(A \cup B \in \mathcal{M}\), referencing DeMorgan's laws.
  • Post 3 expresses uncertainty about the validity of the approach and requests further clarification.
  • Post 4 prompts for details on the source of uncertainty and previous attempts made by the participant.
  • Post 5 discusses the closure of \(\mathcal{G}\) under intersections and attempts to extend the argument to unions of more than two sets, noting a limitation in proving that unions of multiple sets belong to \(\mathcal{M}\).
  • Post 6 encourages the exploration of counterexamples to address the issues raised in the previous posts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of confidence regarding the properties of \(\mathcal{M}\) and whether certain unions of sets belong to it. There is no consensus on the resolution of the main question about \(X \in \mathcal{M}\), and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in proving certain properties of \(\mathcal{M}\), particularly regarding unions of more than two sets and the implications of the defined properties.

turiya
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Let [tex]{X}[/tex] be a set. Let [tex]{\mathcal{G}}[/tex] be a non-empty collection of subsets of [tex]{X}[/tex] such that [tex]{\mathcal{G}}[/tex] is closed under finite intersections. Assume that there exists a sequence [tex]{X_h \in \mathcal{G}}[/tex] such that [tex]{X = \cup_h X_h}[/tex]. Let [tex]{\mathcal{M}}[/tex] be the smallest collection of susbsets of [tex]{X}[/tex] containing [tex]{\mathcal{G}}[/tex] such that the following are true:If [tex]{E_h \in \mathcal{M}} {\forall h \in \mathbb{N}}[/tex] and
[tex]{E_h} {\uparrow} {E}[/tex] then [tex]{E \in \mathcal{M}}[/tex]

If [tex]{E}, {F}, {E \cup F \in \mathcal {M}}[/tex] then [tex]{E \cap F \in \mathcal {M}}[/tex]

If [tex]{E \in \mathcal {M}}[/tex] then [tex]{E^c \in \mathcal{M}}[/tex]

Does [tex]{X \in \mathcal{M}}[/tex] ?
 
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You'll only need to show that if [tex]A,B\in \mathcal{G}[/tex], then [tex]A\cup B\in\mathcal{M}[/tex].

For this, use the law of DeMorgan: [tex]A\cup B=(A^c\cap B^c)^c[/tex].
 
Micromass: I am not sure if it works. Can you explain in more detail?
 
What are you unsure of? What did you already try?
 
If [tex]A, B \in \mathcal {G}[/tex] then [tex]A \cap B \in \mathcal{G}[/tex] as [tex]\mathcal{G}[/tex] is closed under finite intersections and therefore [tex]A \cup B \in \mathcal {M}[/tex] using
the DeMorgan's laws and property II of [tex]\mathcal {M}[/tex] as you have pointed out.

I could not prove that if [tex]A, B, C, D, E\in \mathcal {G}[/tex] then [tex]A \cup B \cup C \cup D \cup E \in \mathcal {M}[/tex]. In other words, the union of some sets (which belong to [tex]\mathcal {G}[/tex]) belongs to [tex]\mathcal {M}[/tex] only when the number of sets is less than five.

So, [tex]\cup_{h=0}^n X_h[/tex] does not belong to [tex]\mathcal {M}[/tex] and I could not
use property one (of the three properties of [tex]\mathcal {M}[/tex] listed originally) to prove that [tex]X[/tex] indeed belongs to [tex]\mathcal {M}[/tex]

I might have made a fatal error somewhere though.
 
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Alright, I see your problem. Have you tried finding counterexamples?

For example,

[tex]\mathcal{G}=\{\{0\}\cup\{n\}~\vert~n\in \mathbb{N}\}[/tex]...
 

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