Question on the set of zero-divisors of a ring

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of zero-divisors in a non-commutative ring, specifically examining whether the set of zero-divisors, denoted D(R), forms an ideal of the ring R under the condition that for any zero-divisor z in D(R), z² = 0. The conversation touches on definitions, assumptions, and various arguments related to the nature of zero-divisors and rings.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that zero-divisors are typically defined as non-zero elements, leading to confusion about whether 0 can be included in D(R).
  • Others argue that 0 is indeed a zero-divisor and belongs to D(R), challenging the initial assumption.
  • A participant highlights the ambiguity in definitions of zero-divisors, noting two common definitions: one that includes left or right zero-divisors and another that requires both.
  • There is a discussion about the definitions of a ring, with some participants recalling historical perspectives and noting inconsistencies in modern definitions.
  • One participant attempts to prove that D(R) is an ideal of R by showing that the sum of two zero-divisors is also a zero-divisor, provided certain conditions are met.
  • A later reply corrects an earlier claim about the proof, indicating that the reasoning was flawed and suggesting that it should be disregarded.
  • Another participant simplifies the proof by noting that if z and z' are distinct zero-divisors, their sum is also a zero-divisor.
  • One participant expresses confusion over their previous assumptions about the commutativity of the ring, indicating a need to reconsider their earlier statements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the definitions of zero-divisors and the nature of rings. There is no consensus on the definitions being used for the discussion, and the proof regarding D(R) being an ideal remains contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the lack of clarity in definitions of zero-divisors and rings, which may affect the discussion. The conversation reflects a variety of perspectives on these foundational concepts without resolving the ambiguities.

xixi
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let R be a non-commutative ring and D(R) denotes the set of zero-divisors of the ring . Suppose that z^{2} =0 for any z \in D(R) . prove that D(R) is an ideal of R.
 
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I thought zero-divisors are by definition non-zero, so that 0 cannot be in D(R)?
 
of course 0 is a zero-divisor and belongs to D(R).
 
Maybe you have a http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ZeroDivisor.html .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There are always problems with definitions when it comes to rings. There seem to be two definitions of zero divisor in general use. The first is that a zero divisor is something that is a left zero divisor or a right zero divisor, the second that a zero divisor is something that is a left zero divisor and a right zero divisor.

Both normally exclude zero, but this seems to be only so its easy to talk about rings "without zero divisors", so it's no hardship to allow zero a status of honorary zero divisor for the purpose of the problem - but apart from zero, which of the above definitions are we supposed to assume?

Also there were always disgreements about the exact definition of a ring. When I was alive, it was generally an abelian group under + and a groupoid under . with . distributing over + from both sides - and nothing more. Then some (most?) algebra books would state very early that they would only consider associative rings and sometimes only associative rings with a 1. Now Wiki has two slightly different definitions in different articles. One states that a ring should be a monoid under . but carries on to say that it may actually not be.

In view of the general confusion - what definition of "ring" should we assume for the purposes of this problem?
 
Martin Rattigan said:
There are always problems with definitions when it comes to rings. There seem to be two definitions of zero divisor in general use. The first is that a zero divisor is something that is a left zero divisor or a right zero divisor, the second that a zero divisor is something that is a left zero divisor and a right zero divisor.

Both normally exclude zero, but this seems to be only so its easy to talk about rings "without zero divisors", so it's no hardship to allow zero a status of honorary zero divisor for the purpose of the problem - but apart from zero, which of the above definitions are we supposed to assume?

Also there were always disgreements about the exact definition of a ring. When I was alive, it was generally an abelian group under + and a groupoid under . with . distributing over + from both sides - and nothing more. Then some (most?) algebra books would state very early that they would only consider associative rings and sometimes only associative rings with a 1. Now Wiki has two slightly different definitions in different articles. One states that a ring should be a monoid under . but carries on to say that it may actually not be.

In view of the general confusion - what definition of "ring" should we assume for the purposes of this problem?

To qualify as a ring the set, together with its two operations, must satisfy certain conditions—namely, the set must be 1. an abelian group under addition; and 2. a monoid (a group without the invertibility property is a monoid) under multiplication; 3. such that multiplication distributes over addition.

And in here the set of zero-divisors is the set of all zero-divisors of the ring i.e. the left zero-divisors and the right ones and not just the two-sided ones .
 
Denoting D(R) by D, (\forall z\in D)z^2=0 so every left or right zero divisor is also a two sided zero divisor in R.

If z\in D,r\in R, since R is associative, {(rz)z=rz^2=0}, so rz is a zero divisor. Similarly zr.

If z,z'\in D then because R is associative and z'z\in D, {(z+z')zz'z=z^2z'z+(z'z)^2=0}. Hence (z+z')\in D unless zz'z=0.

But if zz'z=0, (z+z')z'z=0. Hence (z+z')\in D unless z'z=0.

But if z'z=0, (z+z')z=0. Hence (z+z')\in D unless z=0.

But if z=0, (z+z')\in D.

So in all cases, (z+z')\in D.

Also if z\in D then If (-z)r=-zr=0, so -z\in D.

It follows that D is an ideal of R.
 
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EDIT: This answer is incorrect as pointed out by Landau. Please ignore it. (EDIT2: By "this answer" I'm referring to my own, and not Martin Rattigan's which as far as I can see is correct)

Martin Rattigan said:
If z,z'\in D then because R is associative and z'z\in D, {(z+z')zz'z=z^2z'z+(z'z)^2=0}. Hence (z+z')\in D unless zz'z=0.

But if zz'z=0, (z+z')z'z=0. Hence (z+z')\in D unless z'z=0.

But if z'z=0, (z+z')z=0. Hence (z+z')\in D unless z=0.

But if z=0, (z+z')\in D.

So in all cases, (z+z')\in D.

These cases can be done a little simpler by noting that if z and z' are distinct elements in D, then z-z'\not=0 and:
(z+z')(z-z') = z^2 - z'^2 = 0-0=0
so z+z' is in D. If z=z' is in D, then z+z'=2z is in D by the first condition you proved.
 
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rasmhop said:
These cases can be done a little simpler by noting that if z and z' are distinct elements in D, then z-z'\not=0 and:
(z+z')(z-z') = z^2 - z'^2 = 0-0=0.
How so?
xixi said:
let R be a non-commutative ring.
 
  • #10
Landau said:
How so?

I didn't think properly. I for some reason assumed the ring was commutative so please ignore my previous post.
 

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