News Questioning Obama's Critics: Why the Dislike?

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The discussion centers on the intense dislike some individuals have for Obama, prompting questions about the reasons behind such animosity. Critics cite his lack of experience and vague promises of change as significant concerns, while some participants suggest that underlying racism may play a role in the hostility. The conversation also touches on the broader political landscape, with participants expressing frustration over the extreme views held by both supporters and opponents of Obama. Many contributors emphasize that while they may disagree with his policies, they struggle to understand the depth of hatred directed at him. Overall, the thread reflects a complex interplay of political opinion, personal bias, and societal issues.
  • #151
Art said:
You really need to read the link I gave to his interview. He admits he has no evidence whatsoever to support his contentions and his previous history of litigation makes amusing reading; but he still insists that although he has no evidence it is incumbent on Obama to prove him wrong.

This despite factcheck.org have already contested to the authenticity of his birth certificate http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
The issue that is being brought up is that his mother gave birth to him in Kenya, then when she brought him to Hawaii, she filed for a US birth certificate. Supposedly there are records of his birth in a Kenyan hospital.

If he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as he claims, the hospital will have the birth record, where is the hospital birth record? That would be proof, his mother could have lied on the birth certificate, it doesn't actually prove anything except that's what she filed.
 
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  • #152
Evo said:
The issue that is being brought up is that his mother gave birth to him in Kenya, then when she brought him to Hawaii, she filed for a US birth certificate. Supposedly there are records of his birth in a Kenyan hospital.

If he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as he claims, the hospital will have the birth record, where is the hospital birth record?
In the interview he admits he has no evidence whatsoever to substantiate his claims; and the edit I added to my post above re the birth announcement in the Hawaii newspaper pretty much closes the argument.
 
  • #153
Art said:
In the interview he admits he has no evidence whatsoever to substantiate his claims; and the edit I added to my post above re the birth announcement in the Hawaii newspaper pretty much closes the argument.
Sorry, an announcement in a newspaper means didly squat. Provide the official hospital birth record. I have the hospital birth records for both of my children. All he has to do is request a copy from the hospital. That would prove where he was born, if he can do that, the case is closed.
 
  • #154
Evo said:
Sorry, an announcement in a newspaper means didly squat. Provide the official hospital birth record. I have the hospital birth records for both of my children. All he has to do is request a copy from the hospital. If he can do that, the case is closed.
Why is this not acceptable?
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
 
  • #155
Evo said:
Sorry, an announcement in a newspaper means didly squat. Provide the official hospital birth record. I have the hospital birth records for both of my children. All he has to do is request a copy from the hospital.
Are you suggesting he should respond to every nutcase who throws accusations at him? The onus is very firmly on the one making accusations to prove them.

For Obama to publicly entertain each and every slur thrown his way would, unfortunately, in this twisted media world we live in, lend credibility to such claims.

In this instance he was initially asked to provide a birth certificate: he did on his website. Did this kill the rumour? No of course not. Next thing the blogosphere was buzzing with rumours that the certificate was a fake doctored using Photoshop. Now that that has been debunked are the conspiracy theorists happy? No of course not. Now they are saying it was issued through an illegal declaration.

Come on Evo where does it end? If they supplied yet more documents do you think these people spreading malicious lies would just go away? No, of course not!
 
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  • #156
turbo-1 said:
Why is this not acceptable?
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
If he wasn't actually born in the US and his mother lied, the birth certificate is invalid. He needs to provide his hospital birth record to prove his mother actually made it to Hawaii (she was living in Kenya) before he was born. That is what the contention is over. If Obama can produce his birth record, then it will prove that the birth certificate is valid. as of right now, he has not furnished his birth record.
 
  • #157
Evo said:
The issue that is being brought up is that his mother gave birth to him in Kenya, then when she brought him to Hawaii, she filed for a US birth certificate. Supposedly there are records of his birth in a Kenyan hospital.

If he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as he claims, the hospital will have the birth record, where is the hospital birth record? That would be proof, his mother could have lied on the birth certificate, it doesn't actually prove anything except that's what she filed.
If she filed for and received a Hawaiian birth certificate for him doesn't that make him a US citizen regardless of where he was born?

Art said:
Are you suggesting he should respond to every nutcase who throws accusations at him? The onus is very firmly on the one making accusations to prove them.

For Obama to publicly entertain each and every slur thrown his way would unfortunately, in this twisted media world we live in, lend credibility to such claims.
I could be wrong but it seems that Obama often takes the easy way out on these issues by not being entirely honest. Back in the day he at least had the stones to admit to his drug use. I just wish that would carry over to now. Either way I like him far more than McCain and don't see any reason why he shouldn't be president among all of the nutcase claims.
 
  • #158
Evo said:
If he wasn't actually born in the US and his mother lied, the birth certificate is invalid. He needs to provide his hospital birth record to prove his mother actually made it to Hawaii (she was living in Kenya) before he was born. That is what the contention is over. If Obama can produce his birth record, then it will prove that the birth certificate is valid. as of right now, he has not furnished his birth record.
And that's where you are making a fundamental error. Obama doesn't need to do anything. His accusers are the one's who have to produce evidence to back up their claims.

I can't believe a conspiracy theory comprehensively debunked by factcheck.org has been allowed to continue to run on like this in this thread. As factcheck said,
We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat.
 
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  • #159
Art said:
Are you suggesting he should respond to every nutcase who throws accusations at him? The onus is very firmly on the one making accusations to prove them.

For Obama to publicly entertain each and every slur thrown his way would, unfortunately, in this twisted media world we live in, lend credibility to such claims.

In this instance he was initially asked to provide a birth certificate: he did on his website. Did this kill the rumour? No of course not. Next thing the blogosphere was buzzing with rumours that the certificate was a fake doctored using Photoshop. Now that that has been debunked are the conspiracy theorists happy? No of course not. Now they are saying it was issued through an illegal declaration.

Come on Evo where does it end? If they supplied yet more documents do you think these people spreading malicious lies would just go away? No, of course not!
Art, he just needs to produce his birth record, that's not hard.
 
  • #160
You think this is a big deal? Obama has yet to prove that he is not a coke dealing gay murderer.


 
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  • #161
Astronuc said:
A Of course, anyone born on US soil is automatically American, even if both parents are foreign agents!
And it's quite difficult to get out of it. You have to be 18 to renounce your citizneship and even then doesn't necessarily exempt you from the draft or US tax!
A european colleague had to fly the mother back home for the last couple of months to make sure that their little german wouldn't end up liberating some foreign oil rich desert in 18years time.
 
  • #162
Evo said:
What would happen if he were elected and it was proven, for example, that he did become a naturalized citizen of Indonesia as is stated in the suit?

His mother subsequent to his birth becoming a citizen of another country I can't imagine affects the status of his US citizenship at birth. Regardless of the laws of Indonesia, they do not affect his rights in the US. I would consider that a non issue.

But surely this kind of thing is useful grist for the Karl Rove agenda of smearing opponents in the hopes that the electorate won't look at the bona fides or the policies of the candidate he is promoting.
 
  • #163
Evo said:
And she was in Kenya before his birth, not the US.

I think you are misinterpreting this clause of 8 USC 1401
8_USC_1401_d said:
(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

I think you will find that does not mean the year immediately preceding the birth, but rather means resided for a minimum of 1 full uninterrupted year in the US during her lifetime prior to his birth.
 
  • #164
LowlyPion said:
His mother subsequent to his birth becoming a citizen of another country I can't imagine affects the status of his US citizenship at birth. Regardless of the laws of Indonesia, they do not affect his rights in the US. I would consider that a non issue.
That's exactly what I said earlier. Obama would also have to have become a naturalized Indonesian citizen. Keep up with the posts LP! :wink:

LowlyPion said:
I think you are misinterpreting this clause of 8 USC 1401

I think you will find that does not mean the year immediately preceding the birth, but rather means resided for a minimum of 1 full uninterrupted year in the US during her lifetime prior to his birth.
I'm not the one saying this LP, I was explaining what was said in the law suit. Also, since you bring it up, there does seem to be restrictions on when the time in the US was spent that affects citizenship status, I was just looking through the laws on citizenship yesterday. I will see if I can find what the laws were at the time he was born. The laws are modified every few years, a lot as the result of Supreme Court rulings.
 
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  • #165
This is interesting, according to US law

"Section 301 (b) Any person who is a national and citizen of the United States under paragraph (7) of subsection (a) shall lose his nationality and citizenship unless (1) he shall come to the United States and be continuously physically present therein for a period of not less than two years between the ages of fourteen years and twenty-eight years; or (2) the alien parent is naturalized while the child is under the age of eighteen years and the child begins to reside permanently in the United States while under the age of eighteen years. In the administration of this subsection absences from the United States of less than sixty days in the aggregate during the period for which continuous physical presence in the United States is required shall not break the continuity of such physical presence."
If Indonesia has a similar law, then when Obama's mother became naturalized as an Indonesian citizen while Obama was a minor and Obama lived with her in Indonesia, apparently Obama would be an Indonesian citizen. I didn't know that when a parent became naturalized that the existing children also changed citizenship.

Anway, here are the citizenship laws in chronological order. http://www.aca.ch/op4b.htm

I never knew all this bruhaha about Obama's nationality was going on until yesterday. Interesting from a legal standpoint based on his mother's actions. The question of if there is actually any issue at all will probably result in there being no issue. But questions of citizenship can be tricky.
 
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  • #166
I don't understand. Why is this in the "Hate Obama?" thread? We hate him because he's not a born US Citizen?
 
  • #167
Evo said:
I'm not the one saying this LP, I was explaining what was said in the law suit. Also, since you bring it up, there does seem to be restrictions on when the time in the US was spent that affects citizenship status, I was just looking through the laws on citizenship yesterday. I will see if I can find what the laws were at the time he was born. The laws are modified every few years, a lot as the result of Supreme Court rulings.

I think you will find that little has changed in regards to this since about 1934 when I think it was recognized that just the mother would confer citizenship at birth. (Previously I believe the father could be the only parent, but not the mother, a rather strange lack of symmetry under law.) Since his mother was apparently raised in the US, met his father in college as I understand it, that should unequivocally make her a citizen at all times relevant and prior to his birth.
 
  • #168
LowlyPion said:
I think you will find that little has changed in regards to this since about 1934 when I think it was recognized that just the mother would confer citizenship at birth. (Previously I believe the father could be the only parent, but not the mother, a rather strange lack of symmetry under law.) Since his mother was apparently raised in the US, met his father in college as I understand it, that should unequivocally make her a citizen at all times relevant and prior to his birth.
Read the above post about her changing her nationality to Indonesian.

No one is questioning if she was American when he was born. His father was not American, which would give him dual national status, unless Obama denounced his Commonwealth citizenship.
 
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  • #169
WarPhalange said:
I don't understand. Why is this in the "Hate Obama?" thread? We hate him because he's not a born US Citizen?

That's just it. It is a straw issue - a Karl Rove favorite tactic apparently - to throw mud at the other guy and make them duck and not pummel their guy on the continuation of the failed policies of the past 8 years.
 
  • #170
Evo said:
Read the above post about her changing her nationality to Indonesian.

I did. Your hypothesizing that Indonesia may have laws relative to her National affiliation is irrelevant to the rights of Obama himself. No act on her part subsequent to his birth can cede his rights of citizenship from birth.

Indonesian law has no jurisdiction in the US.
 
  • #171
At this point I think the only ones that want to deny Obama citizenship are the Republicans determined to cling to power by whatever means or trickery or slander they can muster.

It's an unseemly display of desperation. It's time for Rove and Cheney to retire gracefully from the stage. Their little oven roaster thermometers have popped and they are done.

Just 5 months now and counting until Inauguration.
 
  • #172
LowlyPion said:
I did. Your hypothesizing that Indonesia may have laws relative to her National affiliation is irrelevant to the rights of Obama himself. No act on her part subsequent to his birth can cede his rights of citizenship from birth.

Indonesian law has no jurisdiction in the US.
US law has no jurisdiction in Indonesia. According to US law, an Indonesian national that naturalizes to become a US citizen, under US law, their children also become US citizens. Do you think that Indonesia recognizes that? And we aren't talking about his birth, btw.

Being a dual national myself, I know the problems it can cause. Take my brother, for instance. My mother was French and my father American, my brother and I were both born in the US, but because my mother was French, we also had French nationality. My mother later became a naturalized US citizen, which by US law would change our status to American, the French government does not recognize this US law, we would have to renounce our French citizenship at the age of 18, which neither of us did. When my brother turned 18, he was notified by the French government that he was obligated to serve whatever equivalent to military service in France. My mother spent a good bit of time between the US & French consulate getting him out of it. My brother had never even set foot on French soil.

When I went to Europe I carried two passports, one US and one French.

So even though the US recognizes me as being a full US Citizen, France also reconizes me as being a full French citizen.

Although Obama might be a US citizen, (I don't say he isn't, you keep thinking my reference to the lawsuit is my personal viewpoint for some odd reason) he may also have one or two other nationalities. I find it an interesting situation. I don't believe that holding multiple national status would prevent him from being President as long as he can prove that he was born on US soil.
 
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  • #173
Evo said:
US law has no jurisdiction in Indonesia. According to US law, an Indonesian national that naturalizes to become a US citizen, under US law, their children also become US citizens. Do you think that Indonesia recognizes that? And we aren't talking about his birth, btw.

Yes we are talking about his birth. Because at his birth citizenship attached as far as US law is concerned.

What Indonesia requires or recognizes is irrelevant to that. Since for his purposes US citizenship has never been affected - in the US - regardless of what happened or may be required in any foreign jurisdiction - it's moot.
 
  • #174
LowlyPion said:
It's an unseemly display of desperation. It's time for Rove and Cheney to retire gracefully from the stage.

It's that kind of attitude that got us here in the first place. HEADS SHOULD ROLL for what happened. And instead they get to go home and make millions more. It's ridiculous.
 
  • #175
WarPhalange said:
It's that kind of attitude that got us here in the first place. HEADS SHOULD ROLL for what happened. And instead they get to go home and make millions more. It's ridiculous.

I doubt history will judge these power mongers with great kindness.

As to George I laugh at the thought of a Presidential Library.
 
  • #176
Evo said:
I don't believe that holding multiple national status would prevent him from being President as long as he can prove that he was born on US soil.
It doesn't, although the US has an interesting law that you lose your US citizenship if you stand for public office in a foreign country.
If indonesia has a similair law he could lose his chance of one day running for indonesian president!

Is this just a backlash from the suggestions that McCain is ineligible for having been born in the Pananma Canal ?
 
  • #177
Evo said:
I don't believe that holding multiple national status would prevent him from being President as long as he can prove that he was born on US soil.

No. I believe even in the case of some imagined dual citizenship he still need not prove he was born in the US. His mother being a citizen at his birth is apparently sufficient to establish his citizenship from birth - which seems to be the real standard.
 
  • #178
Obama was born in Hawaii, and there was a birth notice in the newspaper. For the conspiracy-loons that claim Obama is not a citizen, how do they explain a decades-old birth notice in the paper? All the claims that the nuts have been making about Obama's birth certificate (it's been Photoshopped, it doesn't have an embossed seal, it doesn't bear a signature, etc, etc) have been proven wrong. Philip Berg (the lawyer who filed suit trying to block Obama's nomination because he has "proof" that Obama is a foreign national) should be counter-sued and perhaps disbarred.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
 
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  • #179
turbo-1 said:
Philip Berg (the lawyer who filed suit trying to block Obama's nomination because he has "proof" that Obama is a foreign national) should be counter-sued and perhaps disbarred.

Another in the fine history of Republican attack dobermans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Segretti

From Muskie to Watergate to Swift Boat - a fine GOP tradition.
 
  • #180
turbo-1 said:
Obama was born in Hawaii, and there was a birth notice in the newspaper. For the conspiracy-loons that claim Obama is not a citizen, how do they explain a decades-old birth notice in the paper? All the claims that the nuts have been making about Obama's birth certificate (it's been Photoshopped, it doesn't have an embossed seal, it doesn't bear a signature, etc, etc) have been proven wrong. Philip Berg (the lawyer who filed suit trying to block Obama's nomination because he has "proof" that Obama is a foreign national) should be counter-sued and perhaps disbarred.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
Come on turbo, a birth notice in the newspaper means nothing.

Has Obama furnished his hospital birth record yet? I haven't been following this.
 
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