Automotive Race car suspension Class

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The discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding race car suspension dynamics to improve handling and performance. Key issues include the car's tendency to push while entering corners and being loose upon exit, which can be addressed by adjusting downforce and the third link location. The roll center and instant center are critical factors in suspension design, affecting tire loading and grip during cornering. The conversation also highlights the significance of software tools like Suspension Analyzer for optimizing suspension geometry. Overall, proper suspension setup is essential for maximizing tire contact and achieving competitive performance on the track.
  • #1,321
with no splay does this not allow for lateral movement when in the turns? not allowed a panhard bar or such, or will that be reduced when using the short rear shackles with near zero deflection, like i said i am learning this design as i go, please be patient, pic below is similar set up except for upper frame rail/ tube is very high therefore long shackles, and top view came from someone who raced in my division and he gave me this to go by...did i get hosed a bit? HAHAHA
 

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  • #1,322
Before you do any changes, bench mark the car and see exactly what the wheel base on each side does at max left side droop and max right side compression per your shock bump stops. once yo u have this then you can start to record changes as you make your adjustments. Again, i am not an expert on todays trends so i like things straight, parallel and moving in two axis arcs. To me long shackles are not the hot setup. short thick shackles are the best.
In the case of leaf springs, twist is very bad as it changes the spring rate of the spring. Also any non square mounting will effect the spring rate as the spring compresses and droops. We want maximum tire contact and the link below is truly is the hot setup on this. Do not forget, a little rear roll over steer is very useful. great videos below



 
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  • #1,323
i have seen this before and i agree it would work really well, i have to make them appear to be something they are not, rules being meant to be bent a bit, thanks for the info, just needed some reassurance that no lateral movement.
 
  • #1,324
exactly what do the rules say? being a jail house lawyer over the years...ifin it aint stated not to do it... do it!
 
  • #1,326
Shawn
In racing it is all about tires, Tires, TIRES. The rules say you must run leaf springs but no monoball mounting. You are stuck with stock parts. Looking at the track transition diagram below, we see the distance from turn in (yellow to blue) to gentle acceleration is a very short distance but it is the most critical distance you encounter 4 times a lap. (ok i know they are turning Right but you guys are smart enough to hang with me on this) We will concentrate on the rear tires only during this discussion. This short distance is unique because it is when we have maximum left side droop and maximum right side suspension compression ( max bump/droop). If we were to set up the race car statically, to replicate the maximum right side bump travel and maximum left side droop (max bump/droop), we would be a lot more competitive than the other race cars out there. Since we can not use monoball mounting devices to self-level the suspension to the track surface, the next best thing to do is camber the rear end housing to be “ level” to the track surface when it really matters.Let’s look at what happens to a tire when you set it up so the tire tread is on the garage floor and you grab both sides and slide it. Viewed from the driver seat. Note the red chamber thrust arrow is the track gripping the tire. The race car is pushing the tire to the right can the tire tread bulges to the left side. Not the ideal tire contact scenario, right? When we bend the rear end housing by heating the top of the axel tube, the negative camber we build into the housing will apply downforce more perpendicular to the track surface and we have better tire contact.

You can run 1.5 ° negative camber in a Ford 9” differential reliably. A floater is a lot better and you can add camber snouts and 2 ° is optimum. Is this cheating? Well factory specs for the rear end is + 0.75° / 0.5° per side so yes , you can run camber legally. Herb Adams book “Chassis Engineering” has a great read on adding negative camber on page 81. When you go over 1.5° you had better run crown tooth axel splines and not the normal square tooth. You risk tearing up the differential mating teeth over time. Think of the Allen wrench with the little ball end on it.But wait a minute! When we are at maximum droop and bump we really need more than 2° camber! Like all things in racing, our setup is a compromise. Looking at the transition diagram, we are at max bump/droop at only one point in the short distance but we are at a point where 2° camber will greatly effect handling at two points. One point is the lead up to max bump/droop and the point just after max bump/droop. Another critical factor is the fact that we will be running on less than 100% tire contact patch racing down the straights. See final photo. Viewed from the front looking to the rear of the car. Since it is all about lap times, I am for a handling car that maybe a tad slower down the shoot but quicker to the flag stand!
 

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  • #1,327
Ranger Mike I am putting a quick change in my car now and I have been thinking about front vs rear track width. What considerations should think about when setting this up?
 
  • #1,328
Vintage,
great idea. look up post #255 page 13, post # 264 page 14, # 322 page 17, # 505 page 26
summary - rear wheel drive cars, run 1 inch wider in front...all calculations in above posts and, from experience , having had to scrape many pounds of rubber off the inside sheet metal fenders of super late models , the hot gummy front tires make a clean path for the rear drive tires..

btw.. Happy New year 2018
 
  • #1,329
Happy New Year to you too. Thank you for the help on finding the correct articles.
 
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  • #1,330
Thanks Mike for the insight above, we used to play with that heating and quenching long time ago, it does work, we are using full floater so it is possible to revisit that ol trick, thanks again...and Happy New Year to you and everyone on the fourm.
 
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  • #1,331
I was wondering if someone could explain something to me. If you run a big coil car soft spring setup, It is roughly 600's acroos the front and 200 lr and a 400 rr. Why is it that a coil over bbss set up would be 200 across the front 175 lr and 400 rr, "all spring rates are rough rates". Why are the front springs so much lighter than regular 5.5 coils yet in the back they are almost identical ?
Thanks for the help !
 
  • #1,332
read BBSS page 19#362,pg 20 #381,pg 29 #568 pg 56 # 118..motion rate is different when you go from A-Arms to Coil overs and this means wheel rate changes,
see pg 2 #19,pg 30 # 589,
 
  • #1,333
Thank Mike ! Great group here with a lot of knowledge!
 
  • #1,334
SSguy
thanks for the kind words..i had some time so here is the skinny on the motion rate.
stock Chevy A-arm is
16.5 inch inside frame mount point to BJ and 9 inch from inside frame mount point to center of spring pocket
assume you have a 800 lbs. spring
wheel rate = 9 / 16.5 = .54.54 x .54 x 800 =
.29 x 800 = 233 lbs. spring

coil overs typically used on Sportsman/ late models in place of stock Chevy A-arm have 17" inch inside frame mount point to BJ and 13 inch from inside frame mount point to center of spring pocket
13/17 = .76
you have to add in the mount angle of the coil over. rule of thumb is if it is mounted 0 to 8 degrees, the cosine of the angle will be .99 so dontl worry about it.
Typically you mount at 15 degrees. Cosine of 15 degree is 0.966
.996 squared is 0.992

assume you have a 800 lbs. spring
wheel rate = .76 x .76 x .992 x 800 lbs. spring =
.57 x .992 x 800 = 458 # spring
so to get the same wheel rate we used on the A-Arm set up we work it backwards
233 / ( .57 x .992) = 233 / .56 = 416 # spring

lets plug in the new spring to the above coil over formula
.57 x .992 x 416 = 235

savvy?
rm
 
  • #1,335
Thank you for the detailed explanation ! I am looking into running a "softer" set up in a metric monte, this simple math makes things easier to understand. Thanks again !
 
  • #1,336
Ranger Mike can you direct me to what pages discuss roll center distance front vs rear? I need to change my rear frame panhard mount since installing my qc and so I want to know if I should match the measurement left to right to what I set the front at
 
  • #1,337
rc distribution #229, pg 12, #244 pg 13, #251 pg 12,
#691 pg 35
 
  • #1,338
Thank you sir
 
  • #1,339
I have had some very good nights of reading here. I really appreciate the knowledge that has been put in the eyes of racers here. It's kind of a unspoken voodoo around here.
I do have a few questions before I go and hack up my front end.

My static rc is 4.035 high and 9.649 right
And
Dynamic it moves to 3.144 high and 15.517right.

My car is nosing hard on right front.
And does not seem to be using left rear at all.

The way I am understanding things the farther right the roll center is the higher % of left front weigh that is transferred to the right front.
So, this has to be a lot of my issue.

This car was fast, top three every week.
I feel like I got to tone down the roll and get it back on left rear to even out traction across the rear. I literally raced this car three full nights on a new left rear and the tits were still on it.

Please assure me I'm going to do the right thing.

Yes, I have a program, yes I understand what changes need to be made to get it to start 4 high and 3 right and move to 3.75 high and 4.25 right.

What I need is your guys opinion that it should help w my issue. As I said before Thai car was fast ... I don't want to spend 500$ and hours fabbing just to go slower this season.
 
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  • #1,340
you are currently racing a 3 legged milk stool..25% of the total tire contact is not working for you. By cutting back on the RC migration so far to the right you will keep the car from lifting the LR so far off the track.

Also , how much rear roll steer have you cranked into the rear end?

The set up you have today is not working though it may seem fast. i suspect he driver has a huge amount of credit for this success.. Imagine getting into a dialed in set up and driving??
 
  • #1,341
On the strings The race car staticly has 1/4 under steer.
It rolls to even or straight up. I tightened it up by putting shorter right rear lower arm in so I could drive it in harder with more drive off corner.

I know that not using the left rear is killing me.
 
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  • #1,342
look at page 60 post # 1200 on rear roll oversteer. This is why the leaders run a lot of it. I have seen quote a few dirt track races and when the left rear wheel moves way forward in the corner, you know the car is running huge roll oversteer...3 to 4 inch change in wheelbase.
but you need all 4 tires working togeather
 
  • #1,343
This car is a metric chassis w stock rear links and ford 9".

We are only allowed 3 holes on bottom of rear end for adjustment. W 3 inches from axle tube being furthest measurement .

That huge amount of rear steer is used in mods and latmodels. And yes, as a former driver of a mod, it was a huge factor in going fast.
 
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  • #1,344
this may help. I put all the more frequent topics on Microsoft Xcel spreadsheet for easy indexing.

Subject , post # and Page

note that info on street stock may also be in Metric subjects as well but should help sift thru the 60 plus pages. never thought it would get this big!
rm
 

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  • #1,345
Thanks Ranger Mike, that might help guys find the stuff they are seeking.
I know I'm going to be reading some..
 
  • #1,346
Ranger Mike said:
this may help. I put all the more frequent topics on Microsoft Xcel spreadsheet for easy indexing.

Subject , post # and Page

note that info on street stock may also be in Metric subjects as well but should help sift thru the 60 plus pages. never thought it would get this big!
rm
Sweet!
 
  • #1,347
i have been neglecting the Street stock boys on here of late. I am working on how to fix the front RC problem ..legally..not easy..but is relatively cheap.
stay tuned
 
  • #1,348
Ok Street Stockers, I am not an expert on this series having never raced it. The closest was Hobby Stock class where we had a whole lot of latitude in car modification. Raced a 64 Ford 390 and was a blast when I was 15.The Street Stock class is very limited on modifications you can make LEGALLY. Most rules cover Midsize Metric cars made by GM from 1978 to 1987. Monte Carlo, Chevelle, Camaro, Firebird, Nova, Malibu, Cutlass, Grand Prix, Regal. The Full size Metric cars are Cadillac Impala, Caprice. Can be a good choice but so heavy not worth it on the crummy spec tires we have to use. We will concentrate on Monte Carlo and the Camaro.To win we need a very good edge and the front roll center is the number one thing we can change to give us that edge. We have to relocate it and make it work to plant the hard spec tire so the car will turn.

A subset of this is the camber build for optimum tire contact patch. Once we rework the front suspension to get these two we are on the way to max handling Street Stocker. These modifications are labor intensive but pretty cheap compared to dollars spent elsewhere.You need chassis software. Buy it. Map the front end and find out what you have with Roll Center location. Do not pass GO and collect the Win $$ if you are not doing this.

When you plug in your stock chassis numbers in the software program you will to find the present Roll Center.

Next you need to start gaming the software by changing BJ heights and locations.

Two things we need to know. Lower A-Arm lengths and spindle height. It is assumed the rules let you use aftermarket ball joints and aftermarket bushings in the A-Arms. It let's you use custom Upper A-Arms as long a location is stock. Let us assume you have the talent to ream out taper holes for bigger tie rod and ball joints and i assume you can modify the drag link to get proper bump steer. If you do not know how, learn to or be happy with being a back packer. Racers are innovative mechanics, not part replacers!GM short light metric spindles that came on all midsize GM cars from 78-87 and 2wd S-10 trucks are 7 ½” tall and these spindles have 4 3/4 bolt pattern and 11” brake rotor.

All of the short spindles dimensions are same relative to ball joint location and tie rod centers. Pay attention to the differences in outer bearings depending on what year and model. Tie rod taper may not be the same so ream it.All of the Full size Metric cars have the 5 on 5” bolt pattern and 12 inch rotor. Came on heavy duty applications like limos, station wagons, and mid-70s full size cars like Cadillac Seville , Fleetwood, Buick Riviera, Oldsmobile, Pontiacs Chevrolet, Buicks.

These are way too heavy sprung weight and not worth the effort.The Chevy Impala spindles are the " hot set up " on a mid-size metric chassis. Big Chevy Impala and Caprice 1980 to 1990 full size metric spindle is 8 3/4” tall used 11 diameter brake rotor on 5 x 4 ¾” bolt center.

Options I found are Ford Granada, Mustang II , Ford Pinto spindle is 7. 625” height. These are E mod options not recommended for heavy Street Stocker.Let’s look at a 4th generation 1981- 88 Street Stock 1986 Monte Carlo.

Stock chassis suspension mounting points front and rear, stock lower A-arms. After market upper A-Arms.

We add aftermarket longer ball joints in lower A-arms to raise the spindle .75" and we add longer upper ball joints to add up to an inch more height to the upper tube A-arm. This raised the front Roll Center to about 3 to 3.5 Inch we wanted but only moves the RC to the right about 1.5 inch. We need at least 3 inch offset to plant the right front tire.

The other factor was our camber build curve was pretty poor and bump steer needs fixing. The car is drivable and a lot better than the way it was but not as good as we can make it with these lame rules.Lets look at a project car in Steve Smiths books “Street Stock Chassis Technology”. Stock 1978 Camaro has front Roll Center of 0.487” above the pavement. Bad negative camber gain 2.9° in 4 inches of bump and neg. 1.17° in 4 inch rebound (droop).

Bump steer needed work too. After lowering the car 1 inch and adding 1” longer ball joints to stock Right side upper and lower A-Arms the RC was 2.75” height and better camber change. Next the right front lower BJ was moved out ¼” and the left lower BJ was moved in ¼”. Lowering the right front upper A-arm inner pivot points .5 inch each and lowering the right front tie rod end down 1 inch got us front RC of 3.375” height and right front camber gain is 1.47° per inch. They added a taller AFCO lower ball joint on left front lower A-arm to put camber gain in ball park, We still have bump steer to fix and need rework drag link and the front Roll Center location is left about 3 inches. A lot better but not as good as we can make it with a little more work.Goal – move Roll Center to 3 inch height and 3 inch offset to the right (paved track) 4 inch offset to right on dirt.Looking at the stock A-arms on GM metric cars we have 14.25” length from the frame mount to the ball joint center, this is for 1978 and up GM metric cars like Monte Carlo,

1978-1987 Metric Impala lower control arms are 16” length , 15.31” wide and these work on 73 to 77 Chevelle, 70 to 81 Camaro and 75 to 79 Nova.

1967 – 69 Camaro, 1968 – 1974 Nova lower A-arm is 16” length but 13.25” wide.The Nova lower A-Arm conversion on a Metric car will move the lower ball joint out 1.75 to 2 “ and forward 1.5" to 2" to correct camber gain. You will make the front end wider by about 3 inches. You need a full custom upper A-Arm with adjustable upper A-Arm screw in ball joint or similar. It is possible to retrofit the Nova 16” center to center lower control arm to a Metric frame using proper control arm bushings. You will need to modify and change several things on your car to use these. These control arms use 5" OD springs, longer tie rod ends (which get very close to the control arm. Use custom fab Upper A arm as the typical metric upper control arms will not work. The stock Metric ball joint cannot be used with this control arm so reaming of the spindle for different upper and lower ball joints will be necessary as well. Installing these control arms on a Metric car is a complete front suspension redesign and certainly not a bolt on swap. Be prepared to move the lower ball joints toward the frame or away from the frame before you weld in the screw in ball joint thread ring.

Finally, you need to use Impala spindles to compete the camber gain and end up with the 3 inch roll center offset. The 1 inch taller spindles mean you can run level lower A-arms and angle the upper A-arms for the proper RC offset and still have good camber build.Tips for the metric rear end. Figure out how to put some rear roll over steer in the car. You want the wheelbase to shrink on the left side and grow on the right side when the body rolls in the turn. Start with left lower trail arms a little uphill on the low left side and right side level. Soften the bushings in the trail arms so the left side moves forward and the right side moves to the rear. Rubber bushings can be drilled so they collapse in the direction you want. The rules may say you can use metal bushings here but the obvious advantage means you use rubber bushings. Put in 5 to 8 ° pinon angle down.I might have missed something in the research but this is as good as I can do without building one in the garage.

RM
 
  • #1,349
Well written & gave me more to think about.
 
  • #1,350
its winter. time to go back to school!

 

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