Race car suspension Class

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Wow, I've more or less just discovered racing but man you guys take it to another level altogether! :woot:

EDIT: That is one of the things I love about this forum. Suddenly you're reading a discussion about esoteric race car mechanics or train gears or whatnot. Never a dull moment!
 
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Welcome Sbrothy, Thanks for the kind words! Racing is world wide and pretty much universal!
rm
 
hey @rangermike had another question for you about rear axle "placement" if we want to call it that. With the panhard bar set on an angle which ever direction a person sets it at for their particular setup, when the body of the car rolls over and loads the axle either pushing down on or pulling down on the panhard bar does that displace the axle to either the right or the left affecting how much "load" the tire is picking up? IE. if the bar is sloped down to the chassis on the right, when the body rolls to the right on a circle track that effectively shortens that bar further, and pulls the axle to the right along with it, which then puts the tire further under the car towards the CL of the car and makes it pick up more of the rear weight. I hope i have explained my thoughts properly here enough to not be too confusing. i just want to make sure i am actually understanding how that particular piece of suspension geometry works, i feel like that is too simple for how it works but just wanted to double check.
 
Please read post 246 on page 9. post 1643 on page 55.
If you go to the Page number indicator, (has the left pointer and Prev) you will see 3 dots (...)
click on them and type in page!
rm
 
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Panhard bar mounting location

A quick review about the panhard bar. It locates and limits the rear end of the race car form moving sideways in a turn. On paved tracks the panhard bar is anchored to the axel on left side and mounted to the body on the right side. Dirt track cars are the opposite as they need maximum traction on dirt.

Lets look at Center of Gravity. We want the lowest COG we can get.

Direct Comparison: High vs. Low Center of Gravity

FeatureHigh Center of Gravity (e.g., SUV, Truck)Low Center of Gravity (e.g., Sports Car)
Rollover RiskHigh (Easily tips over)Low (Slides instead of tipping)
Body Roll / LeanSignificant (Heavy weight transfer)Minimal (Stays flat and stable)
Max Cornering SpeedLower (Must slow down to stay upright)Higher (Can carry more speed)
Lever Arm LengthLong (Multiplies outward forces)Short (Minimizes outward forces)
We can not change the COG at the race track but we can change the Rear Roll Center. Why do this?

On dirt and pavement in a turn with a level panhard bar, the lateral force goes straight sideways and the tires are the only counter to this force.

On dirt and pavement in a turn with a level panhard bar, the Rear Roll Center is exactly where the panhard bar crosses the car center line and usually is NOT the mid point of the panhard bar.

On dirt and pavement in a turn with a panhard bar angled downward to the right rear tire will LOWER the Rear Roll Center. This is the static location. The lateral force is now directed to the right rear tire and placed more download force on that tire and adds traction. Note also, as the car rolls over to the right in a turn, the rear roll center will lower due to arch of rotation of the panhard bar.


Yes, the Moment Arm between the rear Roll Center and the cars Center of Gravity is now longer length, but the force angle is greater on the right rear tire. Hence, more grip (traction).

On dirt and pavement car raising the Rear Roll Center will loosen the car in a turn.
 
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Ranger Mike said:
Panhard bar mounting location

A quick review about the panhard bar. It locates and limits the rear end of the race car form moving sideways in a turn. On paved tracks the panhard bar is anchored to the axel on left side and mounted to the body on the right side. Dirt track cars are the opposite as they need maximum traction on dirt.

Lets look at Center of Gravity. We want the lowest COG we can get.

Direct Comparison: High vs. Low Center of Gravity

FeatureHigh Center of Gravity (e.g., SUV, Truck)Low Center of Gravity (e.g., Sports Car)
Rollover RiskHigh (Easily tips over)Low (Slides instead of tipping)
Body Roll / LeanSignificant (Heavy weight transfer)Minimal (Stays flat and stable)
Max Cornering SpeedLower (Must slow down to stay upright)Higher (Can carry more speed)
Lever Arm LengthLong (Multiplies outward forces)Short (Minimizes outward forces)
We can not change the COG at the race track but we can change the Rear Roll Center. Why do this?

On dirt and pavement in a turn with a level panhard bar, the lateral force goes straight sideways and the tires are the only counter to this force.

On dirt and pavement in a turn with a level panhard bar, the Rear Roll Center is exactly where the panhard bar crosses the car center line and usually is NOT the mid point of the panhard bar.

On dirt and pavement in a turn with a panhard bar angled downward to the right rear tire will LOWER the Rear Roll Center. This is the static location. The lateral force is now directed to the right rear tire and placed more download force on that tire and adds traction. Note also, as the car rolls over to the right in a turn, the rear roll center will lower due to arch of rotation of the panhard bar.


Yes, the Moment Arm between the rear Roll Center and the cars Center of Gravity is now longer length, but the force angle is greater on the right rear tire. Hence, more grip (traction).

On dirt and pavement car raising the Rear Roll Center will loosen the car in a turn.
thank you again @rangermike, so can i then assume if we need the car to rotate in the corner, but also gain traction on exit, the best angle to run the pan hard at would be sloping down to the right? this would in effect pull weight off the left rear and over load the right enough to allow it to "slip" and the car to rotate? or am i reading into the rotation of the car completely wrong?
 
Read Post 562 on page 19 first – Polar Moment explained.

In Physics Moment is the turning effect or rotational tendency produced by a force acting on an object around a pivot point or axis.

Pitch Roll and Yaw

Every race car driver knows about Roll. It is the left to right turning motion the car moves in a turn. The second motion is Pitch. Think of your softball days where you had to pitch the softball underhand. Your hand pitched the ball from a low position to a high position from back to front. Your car pitches up under acceleration and pitches down under braking.

Yaw is the side to side motion during cornering and the least understood motion. Why is understanding Yaw important?

Race Car rotation in cornering is the deliberate, controlled turning or yaw of the car's body around its vertical center of gravity when in left hand turn.

A race car rotates around its vertical (z-axis) through the center of gravity during cornering, and the Polar Moment of inertia measures how its mass is distributed relative to that axis.
You have to re-read this several times.

Ideally, we want to build the race car with the desired percent of left side weight and best front to rear weight. Only when we achieve this do we want to add lead weight to meet the minimum weight requirement when we scale. We want to add this Mass or weight at the Polar Moment as this is the point where it will move “ the least” when cornering.

Think of the old teeter totter at the local school. The tetter totter board is your Wheelbase. If two people of equal weight sit on it at the same position from the middle pivot, we have Minimum teetering or movement. The center pivot is the Polar Moment. Now bounce up and down and the teeter totter moves (Pitches) but notice the center pivot has the “ least movement” relative to the rest of the board. We have front to rear weight bias.

So if I go get the neighbors fat kid and put him on the right side of the teeter totter opposite me, the teeter totter will tilt in my favor. I have to scoot toward the center pivot point to “ equal up” the weight distribution.

In fact, an observer looking at this mess from the side would see my weight was shifted 10% bias toward the center pivot point. This is why we mount the heavy Battery and additional weigh bars as close to Polar Moment as possible. We do not want a bunch of “sling weight” at the rear bumper! If you have to add weight, place it where it moves the least during Roll, Pitch and Yaw.

Our race car really has Two tetter totters. A front to rear (wheel base) ( Pitch) Moment and a side to side (track width) Yaw Moment.

If we were to measure Left to Right side weights over the Track width distance and find the position to the center pivot point we have 60% left side weight bias. Our second tetter totter (Yaw Moment). This is why early Spots cars started moving brake rotors from the wheel mount calipers to the inboard brake caliper mounts. Lower polar moment.

Polar Moment is the intersection of these two points AT CENTER OF GRAVITY HEIGHT.

This is how your race car "Rotates".

How Polar Moment of Inertia Affects Cornering

  • Low Polar Moment of Inertia (Mass Concentrated in the Middle):
    • Achieved in layouts like mid-engine cars (e.g., placing heavy components, engines, and brakes near the center of the wheelbase).
    • Requires less turning force (torque) to change direction.
    • Allows the car to rotate (yaw) quicker, transition through chicanes faster, and feel more agile.
    • Risk: If it is too low, the car can become "twitchy" or over-responsive at the limit.
By the way, most door slammers run 18 inch CG Height and super late model cars with dry sump oil pans and aluminum heads get as low as 16” CG Height. There is a method you can use to measure exact CG on your car with wheel scales and a floor jack. Read Post 562 on page 19.
 
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Belbs81 said:
thank you again @rangermike, so can i then assume if we need the car to rotate in the corner, but also gain traction on exit, the best angle to run the pan hard at would be sloping down to the right? this would in effect pull weight off the left rear and over load the right enough to allow it to "slip" and the car to rotate? or am i reading into the rotation of the car completely wrong?
More panhard bar angle down hill will mean more right rear tire load. The intent is to gain maximum tire traction on all 4 tires. Not the SAME load but best attainable load. The left rear will be the least loaded and rt ft max loaded.
 
Weight transfer and reality Think 4D !

Here is where everyone gets wrapped around the axel. In a turn you have weight transfer to the right side. In drag racing when you accelerate your transfer weight to the rear. Absolutely NOT!

The only way you can transfer weight is to unbolt it from one chassis mount and place it some where else on the chassis.

Your race car is setting of 4 wheel scales. Here is static scale readings

Lft ft rt ft

883 641



Lft rear rt rear

921 666

Total car weight 3310 #

54% rear weight

59% left side weight

What are the scales really telling us? At that point in time on your garage floor, the scale is reading the weight mass and the downward force gravity is having at that moment. If we place floor jack on the left side of the car and jack it up, the left side weight totals will be lower and the right side weights will increase.

What we have really done is add force to the equation. Adding 6 inch lift to the left side transferred the force thru the track width teeter totter and increased the downforce “ Indicated weight reading on the right side scales. The car thinks we added weight but we really added down force.

On a race track going into a turn, Momentum acts on the chassis. It must go some where. It is real and it is there. If the tires can not counter it, we have no traction and we have tire shear. No grip, car goes straight to the wall until concrete reacts to momentum.

We counter momentum with increased tire traction. We counter this by tuning springs to compensate and add grip.

On a drag strip, when you accelerate , the tires grip and front end lifts and you have too weak rear spring, you wheelie. If you have too stiff a rear spring package you spin the tires, no traction.



One final point. All Race cars, dragsters, go karts experience roll, pitch and yaw in 4D. TIME is also part of this equation. A turn entry , the momentum down load is most effective an diminished just past midturn. Suspension dampers or shock absorbers time just how quick the springs react to the momentum down force.