Raising and lowering indices of partial derivative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the manipulation of indices in partial derivatives using the metric tensor, particularly in the context of general relativity and special relativity. Participants explore the implications of raising and lowering indices, the distinction between partial and covariant derivatives, and the conditions under which these operations are valid.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that raising and lowering indices of partial derivatives is not generally valid, suggesting it only applies to covariant derivatives.
  • Others argue that in special relativity, there is no distinction between partial and covariant derivatives, which allows for the raising of indices in the context of the D'Alembertian operator.
  • A participant notes that the Minkowski metric is a specific case where the operations hold true.
  • Some participants express confusion about why the ability to raise and lower indices is surprising, prompting further clarification on the topic.
  • One participant explains that the relationship between covariant and partial derivatives is clearer when considering scalar functions, indicating that the notation used is context-dependent.
  • Another participant elaborates on the construction of tensor fields and the role of the metric tensor in linking one-forms and vectors, emphasizing the mathematical framework behind these operations.
  • There is a suggestion that the notation for partial derivatives should be reconsidered when discussing covariant derivatives, advocating for the use of the symbol for covariant derivatives instead.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of raising and lowering indices for partial derivatives, with some asserting it is not possible while others provide contexts where it is applicable. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the general applicability of these operations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight that the discussion is context-sensitive, particularly in relation to the type of metric used and the nature of the derivatives being considered (partial vs. covariant).

Derivator
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Hi,

why can I raise and lower indices of a partial derivative with the help of the metric tensor?

E.g., wh is the following possible?
(\phi is a scalar function)

\partial^\mu \phi = g^{\mu\nu}\partial_\nu \phi

--
derivator
 
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You can't. You can only raise and lower indices on covariant derivatives, not partial derivatives.
 
In special relativity, raising the index just changes the sign of the spacelike part.
This is necessary for \partial_\mu\partial^\mu to be the D'Alembertian.
 
clem said:
In special relativity, raising the index just changes the sign of the spacelike part.
This is necessary for \partial_\mu\partial^\mu to be the D'Alembertian.

One way to resolve the apparent contradiction between my #2 and your #3 is to note that in SR there is no distinction between partial derivatives and covariant derivatives. So we could say that the partial derivatives in your d'Alembertian example are "really" covariant derivatives.

At this point I think we could use some more clarification as to what Derivator had in mind with the question. Derivator, why does it seem surprising to you that the indices can be lowered and raised in this way?
 
Yes, what I said works only for the Minkowski metric g.
 
bcrowell said:
One way to resolve the apparent contradiction between my #2 and your #3 is to note that in SR there is no distinction between partial derivatives and covariant derivatives.

In, for example, spherical coordinates there is a difference.
 
well, its from general relativity context and its constantly used in our practice lessons...
 
Derivator said:
well, its from general relativity context and its constantly used in our practice lessons...

What I don't think you've made clear is why you consider it surprising or strange that it works this way.
 
hmm, thought a bit about this.

Isn't the covariant and partial derivative of a scalar function the same?

-> <br /> \partial^\mu \phi = g^{\mu\nu}\partial_\nu \phi<br />
is correct if Phi is scalar.
 
  • #10
My understanding was that

\partial^\mu \phi = g^{\mu\nu}\partial_\nu \phi

is used to define the contravariant derivative \nabla^{\mu} (\nabla rather than \partial since we're in GR, though as you've said it reduces to \partial in the case of a scalar function).

Given a differentiable manifold, we can consider one-form fields induced upon the manifold by scalar fields: given a scalar field \phi, we get a one-form field with components \partial_\mu \phi. We can also consider vector fields induced by curves through the manifold: given a curve \gamma: \lambda \in \Re \rightarrow p\in M, we get a vector field with components \frac{\partial x^\mu}{\partial \lambda}.

From this starting point, tensor products can be used to build tensor fields of higher valences (so in addition to the (0,1) fields - the one-forms - and the (1,0) fields - the vectors - we can get tensor fields of valence (m,n)). We then select some particular (0,2) tensor field, and decide that this shall be our metric g. g will take two vectors as arguments, and deliver a scalar. That is,

g(X,Y) = \chi

or if you prefer,

g_{\mu\nu} X^\mu Y^\nu = \chi

But that means that g_{\mu\nu}X^\mu has, in effect, an empty argument place which could be filled by a vector; i.e. it is something which will map vectors to scalars - in other words, a one-form. So the notation X_\nu is introduced as shorthand for g_{\mu\nu}X^\mu.

The same trick, using the inverse of the metric (i.e. the (2,0) tensor field such that g_{\mu\nu}g^{\nu\rho} = \delta^{\rho}_{\mu}) will allow you to link any one-form (components p_{\mu}) with a particular vector (components p^\mu). In particular, the one-form field with components \partial_\mu \phi has an associated vector field \partial^\mu \phi, defined by

\partial^\mu \phi = g^{\mu\nu}\partial_\nu \phi
 
  • #11
hm, ok.

lotm said:
In particular, the one-form field with components \partial_\mu \phi has an associated vector field \partial^\mu \phi, defined by

\partial^\mu \phi = g^{\mu\nu}\partial_\nu \phi

but if \partial is used for the partial derivative, this is only true for scalar fields Phi. Right?

(and it's always true, if \partial denotes the covariant derivative, in which case we should better use the symbol <br /> \nabla<br /> )
 

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