Random Walk of KMnO4 in Water: Why Do We Observe Non-Probabilistic Behavior?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the random walk problem in statistical mechanics, specifically examining the behavior of a single molecule of KMnO4 in water and the observed spread of the substance in the beaker. Participants explore the implications of probabilistic assumptions in this context and question the apparent discrepancy between expected probabilistic behavior and actual observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the observed behavior of KMnO4 spreading throughout the beaker differs from probabilistic expectations, suggesting that the need to overcome concentration gradients might dominate the behavior.
  • Another participant challenges the initial computation of probabilities, indicating that the focus should be on the distribution of molecules rather than the probability of all molecules ending up at the same location.
  • A participant reiterates that for a single molecule, the probability of reaching the far ends of the beaker is lower than that of oscillating in between, based on the properties of unbiased random walks.
  • One participant notes that as the number of steps increases, the limiting case leads to an even distribution, while also emphasizing the importance of boundary effects in finite systems like a beaker.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of probabilistic models to the behavior of KMnO4 in water, with no consensus reached on the interpretation of the observed phenomena or the validity of the assumptions made.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the assumptions of unbiased random walks and the influence of concentration gradients and boundary effects on the behavior of the molecules.

Jigyasa
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
I had a question regarding the random walk problem in statistical mechanics. If I drop, say, one molecule of KMnO4 in a beaker of water, what we generally observe (spread of KMnO4 to the ends of the beaker) is different from what we should get from probabilistic assumptions. I must be going wrong somewhere in what I'm thinking but I can't point my finger at it.If I consider one molecule of KMnO4 , then the probability of it taking r steps to the right (or left), out of a total of N steps, is NCr *(1/2)^N (assuming unbiased random walk). For Avogadro's number of molecules, this probability is now raised to the power of Avogadro's number. This is maximum if r = N/2. Physically this means that the probability of the whole solution becoming coloured (KMnO4 traveling to the far ends ) is less than the probability of only a part of the solution becoming coloured (because if KMnO4 moves a total of10 steps, the probability of it moving 5 steps to the right and 5 steps to the left is maximum. In a sense, it oscillating is more probable ) But we almost always see that the whole solution turns purple in due course of time.Is it that the need to overcome concentration gradient dominates so KMNo4 has to reach the ends? If yes, then why do we use probabilities in statistical mechanics when systems may or may not be governed by probabilistic assumptions?

Or maybe I'm wrong in assuming this to be an unbiased random walk

Please help.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Jigyasa said:
For Avogadro's number of molecules, this probability is now raised to the power of Avogadro's number.
It is not clear what you are trying to do here. What you are actually computing is the probability of all molecules ending up at the same place, r steps away. This would typically not be what you want. What you would typically want is the distribution of the molecules, which will be the same as that of a single molecule.
 
If I only consider a single molecule, even then the probability of the molecule reaching the far ends of the beaker is coming out to be less than the probability of it oscillating somewhere in between (because NCr is max for r = N/2, this will always be the case assuming unbiased random walk of KMNO4)
 
Obviously. However, the limiting case as N becomes large is an even distribution.

Unless your beaker is infinite, you also cannot disregard boundary effects.
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
400
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
10K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
5K