COVID Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

[Janus]

[sigh]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...vaccine-after-reports-blood-clots/7200817002/

I jumped on my new eligibility early this morning and scheduled the first vaccine I could get: a J&J shot tomorrow afternoon. The pause hasn't actually happened yet as far as I know, but I'll be in limbo while this gets sorted out/until then. I don't want to be an appointment hog, but I'm going to look for Pfizer/Moderna alternatives.

I got my first Pfizer dose yesterday. I went to the Oregon Convention Center, which was convenient as it is close enough that my wife could just drop me off and pick me up, so we didn't have to bother with parking and all that.
I'll have to say that it went very smoothly and was well organized. I didn't even have to get out of the seat where I was sitting out my post-shot waiting period in order to make an appointment for my second dose, as they had someone roaming around with a computer station to schedule it.

Other than a bit of soreness at the injection site, I've had no other side-effects, but I don't think that's unusual with the first dose, as they say it is the second one that can hit you harder. We'll see in three weeks.

 

[Laroxe]

It's important to note that the specific type of blood clotting seen in the people receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine is very unusual and has certain characteristics (e.g. they occur in unusual locations and are associated with low platelet levels and antibodies against PF4-Heparin) that make it look much different than the typical type of blood clots observed in the general population (see the two recent NEJM case studies linked below for characterization of the clotting):

Thrombotic Thrombocytopenia after ChAdOx1 nCov-19 Vaccination
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104840

Thrombosis and Thrombocytopenia after ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 Vaccination
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104882

Science magazine reports at least 222 suspected cases (30 fatalities) among the 34 million that have received the first dose. Given that these occur within 2 weeks of vaccination, the rate of CVST you quote for the Netherlands study (1.32 per 100,000 per year), we would only expect to see ~17 cases in the two weeks following vaccination of 34 million.

As you note then total rate of blood clotting is similar between the general population and people taking other COVID-19 vaccines, but this figure is somewhat misleading as the total rate of blood clotting is much higher than the incidence of the rare AstraZeneca-vaccine induced type of clotting. The most common type of blood clotting occurs at a rate of 1-2 per 1,000 people each year; adding an additional ~6 per million to that rate will not make an appreciable impact on the overall incidence of blood clotting.

Given these data (epidemiological data suggesting an increased rate of severe blood clotting and the specific features of the clotting that suggest that it is vaccine-induced), the European Medicines Agency recently concluded that the unusual blood clots are indeed a side effect of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, but note that the condition is rare and in most cases the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks. Similarly (as @russ_watters noted above), given observation of a small number of similar clot among those getting the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in the US, the FDA has recommended pausing the use of the J&J vaccine (if not just to give providers time to prepare and spread information about how to recognize potential signs of these clots and how to treat them, which is different than other clots due to the clots being associated with low platelet levels).

Given the observation of these clots among people taking the AstraZeneca vaccine and J&J vaccine (both adenoviral vector vaccines) but not among those taking the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines (the mRNA vaccines) or among those who had COVID, it is likely that the clotting issue is associated with adenoviral vectored vacines and not general vaccination against COVID-19 (see this news article from Science for more discussion).

I agree that the condition is rare enough that it is not clear whether this would tip the risk-benefit equation is favor of discontinuing use of the vaccine, though further data would be helpful.

See also my post discussing this issue in another PF thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/oxford-vaccine-clotting.1001834/post-6478992

Your right, Cerebral and Splanchnic Vein Thrombosis are rare and they seem to share similar pathological, often multifactorial causes of immune mediated coagulopathies. Immunological changes effecting blood clotting factors seem to be a core issue in understanding these clotting disorders and can be linked to other bleeding and clotting disorders seen in both infections and post vaccination. In fact these thrombophilic disorders have often been observed to follow infection, some 7 to 10 days after the onset of symptoms, with with Epstein–Barr virus, Varicella zoster virus, rubella, and influenza virus commonly identified. They have also been reported in children and adolescents following vaccinations for/with influenza, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR), hepatitis B, human papilloma virus, varicella, and diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DPT).

Despite the information we already have available we now have a debate, of something presented as a new condition associated with the AZ vaccine, with the risks being misrepresented in articles like that in Science. That reports 222 suspected cases with 30 fatalities, presumably this means 222 strokes, its not a number that can be used for any comparisons. It also says that similar problems have not been seen with the mRNA vaccines, au contraire, in fact the first case to raise concerns was in a Florida Dr. who died of acute thrombocytopenia following the Pfizer vaccine.

I think the fact that the AZ vaccine is currently so important to the global vaccination program the association of this vaccine to clotting disorders needs careful consideration. There have already been highly effective campaigns to discredit this vaccine, the only one produced on a not for profit basis, which has already increased vaccine hesitancy across the world. With this in mind I think its important to examine what is actually said and I think the perception of increased risk is a good starting point. These specific and rare clots are secondary to immune mediate thrombophilic disorders, but are not the only outcome there are other bleeding / clotting events that can be just as dangerous. The way in which these need to be managed is quite different to the more common clotting disorders and significantly effects outcomes.

This first report comes from the independent Drug Safety Research unit which provides an overview and presents data about post Covid vaccination, thrombocytopenia.

https://www.dsru.org/pharmacovigila...porting-in-the-eu-us-and-uk-thrombocytopenia/

The second link provides some very current comparison data and I would suggest seems to indicate that all the vaccines have the potential to cause problems.

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n883/rr-1

Its true that the European Medicines Agency have concluded that these clotting disorders are a risk with the AZ vaccine however the wording in their communication is interesting. First is the title, “AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine: EMA finds possible link to very rare cases of unusual blood clots with low blood platelets”, so the conclusion is that there is a possible link. Their recommendation is equally telling, “EMA is reminding healthcare professionals and people receiving the vaccine to remain aware of the possibility of very rare cases of blood clots combined with low levels of blood platelets occurring within 2 weeks of vaccination. They do not recommend any restrictions on its use.

So the widespread publicity has lead to a situation in which people are reluctant to have the AZ vaccine, based on the belief that the mRNA vaccines are inherently safer. Then as similar issues have been identified in the J&J vaccine, Europe in particular is negotiating to obtain the Sputnick vaccine from Russia, there is no reports of this vaccine causing similar effects (?) despite using the same technology.

I have no problem with using vaccines in a considered way based on possible risks, I think it is sensible to restrict its use in young women who might be more at risk, until the situation becomes clearer. Indeed as more vaccines become available using vaccines in a more strategic way based on evidence should be the norm. However people are not very good at considering relative risks and tend to be guided by their political leaders sadly in this issue the way in which politicians have disrupted the management of the pandemic, has been a disgrace. Being an old cynic I suspect that the finger of blame for the damage will be pointed at the scientific bodies involved.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Your right, Cerebral and Splanchnic Vein Thrombosis are rare and they seem to share similar pathological, often multifactorial causes of immune mediated coagulopathies. Immunological changes effecting blood clotting factors seem to be a core issue in understanding these clotting disorders and can be linked to other bleeding and clotting disorders seen in both infections and post vaccination. In fact these thrombophilic disorders have often been observed to follow infection, some 7 to 10 days after the onset of symptoms, with with Epstein–Barr virus, Varicella zoster virus, rubella, and influenza virus commonly identified. They have also been reported in children and adolescents following vaccinations for/with influenza, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR), hepatitis B, human papilloma virus, varicella, and diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DPT).

The DSRU pre-print you cite notes 42 thrombocytopenic events after administration of 38.4M doses of the Pfizer vaccine and 18 events following 36.7M doses of the Moderna vaccine. Immune thrombocytopenia is estimated to have an incidence of 3.3 per 100,000 adults/year. Therefore, we would expect to see 48 cases of immune thrombocytopenia in the two weeks following administration of a Pfizer dose and and 47 cases in the two weeks following administration of a Moderna dose. These numbers suggest that there is no evidence for an elevated risk of immune thrombocytopenia after administration of either of the mRNA vaccines.

Furthermore, the issue with the AstraZeneca vaccine (and potentially the J&J) vaccine is not immune thrombocytopenia but thrombotic thrombocytopenia. According to data from a meeting of the US CDC's Advisory council on Immunization Practices earlier this week (see this PF post for more information), there were 0 reports of cerebal venous sinous thrombosis (CVST) following 97.9 M doses of the Pfizer vaccine administered, 3 cases following 84.7 M doses of the Moderna vaccine administered and 6 cases following 6.86M doses of the J&J vaccine administered (the AstraZeneca vaccine is not yet authorized for use in the US). Furthermore, none of the cases of CVST following the Moderna vaccien were associated with low platelet counts whereas all six cases of CVST following the J&J vaccine were CVST with thrombocytopenia.

I think the fact that the AZ vaccine is currently so important to the global vaccination program the association of this vaccine to clotting disorders needs careful consideration. There have already been highly effective campaigns to discredit this vaccine, the only one produced on a not for profit basis, which has already increased vaccine hesitancy across the world. With this in mind I think its important to examine what is actually said and I think the perception of increased risk is a good starting point. These specific and rare clots are secondary to immune mediate thrombophilic disorders, but are not the only outcome there are other bleeding / clotting events that can be just as dangerous. The way in which these need to be managed is quite different to the more common clotting disorders and significantly effects outcomes.

There are numerous scientifically valid reasons why the AstraZeneca vaccine was criticized from having used the wrong dose of the vaccine some sites of its initial phase 3 clinical trial, to cherrypicking results showing a higher efficacy from a previous interim analysis rather than reporting the most recent interim analysis showing a slightly lower efficacy, to the current issues with VITT. To suggest that it is being attacked because it is the only vaccine candidate produced on a not for profit basis is an absurd conspiracy theory.

It is unfortunate that the adenoviral vaccine vectors may be subject to problems with VITT, since these can be stored and transported under normal refrigeration (versus the mRNA vaccines that have much stricter cold chain requirements). However, there are other vaccines under development that could hopefully take the place of the adenoviral vaccines, such as the Novavax protein subunit vaccine that has shown very promising results in phase 3 trials. This vaccine can also be shipped and stored under normal refrigeration and protein subunit vaccines are a well established method for vaccination.

The second link provides some very current comparison data and I would suggest seems to indicate that all the vaccines have the potential to cause problems.

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n883/rr-1

This article is mostly based on experiments in animals, where the connection to the effects of the vaccines in humans is less clear than looking at the existing real life data of the usage of these vaccines in large human populations.

Its true that the European Medicines Agency have concluded that these clotting disorders are a risk with the AZ vaccine however the wording in their communication is interesting. First is the title, “AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine: EMA finds possible link to very rare cases of unusual blood clots with low blood platelets”, so the conclusion is that there is a possible link. Their recommendation is equally telling, “EMA is reminding healthcare professionals and people receiving the vaccine to remain aware of the possibility of very rare cases of blood clots combined with low levels of blood platelets occurring within 2 weeks of vaccination. They do not recommend any restrictions on its use.

So the widespread publicity has lead to a situation in which people are reluctant to have the AZ vaccine, based on the belief that the mRNA vaccines are inherently safer. Then as similar issues have been identified in the J&J vaccine, Europe in particular is negotiating to obtain the Sputnick vaccine from Russia, there is no reports of this vaccine causing similar effects (?) despite using the same technology.

I have no problem with using vaccines in a considered way based on possible risks, I think it is sensible to restrict its use in young women who might be more at risk, until the situation becomes clearer. Indeed as more vaccines become available using vaccines in a more strategic way based on evidence should be the norm. However people are not very good at considering relative risks and tend to be guided by their political leaders sadly in this issue the way in which politicians have disrupted the management of the pandemic, has been a disgrace. Being an old cynic I suspect that the finger of blame for the damage will be pointed at the scientific bodies involved.

While I believe that the scientific and medical community does have a responsibility to be on the look out for adverse effects of the vaccines and to be transparent about what we find about the safety of the vaccines (whether good news or bad news), I also agree that it is important to put the risks in context. Overall I agree with you that it sensible to restrict the use of the vaccines in populations that are at low risk of death from COVID-19. If the AstraZeneca vaccine is the only choice versus getting COVID-19 (especially in areas of the world like Latin America which seem to be extremely hard hit by the virus), it absolutely makes sense to promote the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine (and other vaccines). However, we should not try to sweep knowledge of adverse effects of the vaccine under the rug in order to promote widespread vaccination.

 

[AndreasC]

Parents did the first Pfizer shot and the first AZ shot recently. It's been a few days and neither of them had any perceptible side effects.

 

[Laroxe]

Ygggdrasil: I think I might not have been clear about the point I was trying to make in my post, I will address the points you make before trying to clarify my statements.

The point you make about comparisons with the known background rate is important and has been an important issue in the discussions. In fact comparisons of thromboembolic events have been used in the discussions for some time and its only very recently that the data we have has started to suggest that for certain rare disorders the rate may indeed be higher. Having said that it is still considered a possibility rather than confirmed. As I posted earlier the data we have about background rates of problems like CVT is very questionable.
You make the point that we are basically talking about thrombotic thrombocytopenia, well maybe, but in fact its a very specific form of thrombosis, which often occurs along with bleeding. It's a difficult condition to make much sense out of, but virtually everyone agrees it is essentially autoimmune and the risk is modified by a wide range of issues. It's also clear that the condition does occur with both other illnesses and vaccination and there are unexplained cases. It's just a very difficult issue to investigate particularly because of its rarity and the usually poor quality data we are forced to use. These two article discuss related issues, I think an example of one of these is the report of 0 cases after 98million doses, this seems highly unlikely considering the background rate.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.26132

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...-to-incidence-after-vaccination-or-influenza/

Of course there were some valid concerns about the initial studies with AZ the way in which data was used was confusing, but it wasn't the scientific concerns that I was talking about. In fact the European Medicines Agency was not saying the vaccine causes these problems, the communication was carefully worded to reflect the current state of knowledge, they were indicating the possibility and that was the right thing to do. It clearly is important that risks are identified and acted on, I think most of the official scientific bodies have done very well on this. Unfortunately, you then have to consider how their guidance was acted upon, or in the case of Europe not acted upon. The various countries in the EU introduced a variety of inconsistent restrictions some making unsupported claims about its safety and efficiency. While the pandemic one again marches freely across Europe, the same people are now in a state of panic that the populations are refusing this vaccine.
The scientific advisors in France have I believe stopped meeting with the president they feel its such a waste of time. Of course there are more vaccines becoming available and this should solve the problem of people overestimating risk based on misinformation. However, in the case of the EU their actions have made it less likely that they will get the new vaccines, the producers are either moving production facilities or simply not signing supply contracts. In this case ill-advised political statements will result in many more deaths and that's the tragedy, good science, needs to be used.

 

[Astronuc]

I just received my second Pfizer vaccination. No immediate effects. So far, I feel fine.

Edit/update: After 10 and nearly 11 hours, I still feel normal. Hopefully, the vaccine was viable.

Coincidentally, my son informed me that one of his coworkers tested positive for Covid-19 (the coworker has had the first of two vaccines about two weeks ago). My son last had contact on Sunday, and he was only informed by management today. We'll be looking at getting him tested, but he may have to wait a few days. Given the mask mandate at work, I'm expecting that he should not have had significant exposure. The next several days will tell.

 

[Laroxe]

I just received my second Pfizer vaccination. No immediate effects. So far, I feel fine.

Yes, I had my second AZ vaccination, didn't even have a sore arm this time.

 

[Astronuc]

24 hours after my second Pfizer vaccination, I feel like I did before the vaccination. No adverse reaction. Only slight pain at the injection site if I press on it.

Edit/update: After 52+ hours, I've had no fever, lethargy or other negative side effects. I feel more or less the same as I did before the 2nd vaccination.

My son had rapid PCR and lab PCR test done today. The rapid test result was negative, but we wait for the lab test, which is considered more accurate. The rapid test does not react to all new variants.

 

[aheight]

In the end it shows that our immune systems REALLY recognize the spike protein on SARS-COV-2!
It also shows that I REALLY REALLY don't want the real thing.

Is that necessarily true? Or is your immune system over-reacting? I've wondered about the possibility of side-effects of the vaccine and the susceptibility to cytokine storm. Any chance people having adverse vaccine effects would have had greater likelihood for adverse effects of the virus if unvaccinated? Like cytokine storm?

Just curious. If so, might be helpful and a tool for encouraging vaccinations in the future.

I received both doses with only minor arm soreness.

 

[Laroxe]

Our immune system certainly can get a bit carried away with things and we have all sorts of mechanisms to keep it under control. When people become very ill due to these mechanisms it usually follows prolonged exposure to high levels of the virus. It seems that this is something the vaccine is very good at preventing, the virus is suppressed quickly. Of course people are very different and respond to infections in different ways, its certainly true that a very rapid reaction, which is more common in younger people, might be experienced as a more severe adverse effects to the vaccine but this hasn't been seen to lead to things like a cytokine storm. So far there is no real evidence that vaccine adverse events, so called reactogenicity reliably predict the longer term protection. As it seems that younger people are more likely to experience these effects because of their rapid immune activation, but are the least likely to become very seriously ill, it would seem any association would be a negative one.
There is another effect that might be worth considering, antibody- dependent enhancement, something the vaccine developers were very aware of and worried about. Luckily this turned out not to be a problem with the vaccines. The link discusses this.
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeli...dent-enhancement-and-the-coronavirus-vaccines

 

[Astronuc]

My son had his 2nd Moderna vaccination about noon today. I felt fine most of the afternoon, with some soreness in his arm. He felt mostly fine into the evening. At about 9h, he is feeling a bit nauseous, but no fever. I will continue to monitor him.

Edit/Update: This morning (20 hr), my son complained of a headache and weakness. He's taking acetaminophen (paracetamol) for the headache. He has a slight fever, ~ 100°F (38°C).

So, anecdotally, the Moderna vaccine seems to produce stronger (somewhat adverse) reactions more often than Pfizer's vaccine. I don't know however if his headache and weakness are related to dehydration. He did drink fluids, including Gatorade, yesterday, but also a fair amount of coffee (a diuretic), but no alcohol.

Edit/update: My son recovered this afternoon (~28 hr). Before a second dose of acetaminophen (~24 hr), the fever had subsided and the headache had dissipated. Perhaps hydration and acetaminophen had helped this morning. His energy returned by this dinner time and his appetite was normal.

 

[Laroxe]

As if, to provide further evidence of how difficult it can be to identify potential problems with vaccines when they occur very rarely and when they can also occur in the absence of vaccination, I've just seen this report.

The mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna are being investigated because of reports of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) a potentially serious adverse effect, after 62 cases were reported in Israel (all Pfizer). A further 45 cases were identified on the VAERS system in the USA, with 14 cases reported in men in the military all under 30 years old. Cases in the US have involved the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine's.
Symptoms, typically chest pain typically start 12 to 96 hours after the second dose with young men being most likely to be affected.
Like the adverse events associated with the vaccines using viral vectors (Astra Zenica and J&J), this potential adverse event appears to be very rare. This seems to underscore the idea that following an immune challenge of any sort a period of rest and recovery is the best response, in myocarditis, exercise is a very bad idea.
This is clearly an issue in which the investigation is based on the temporal association of a small number of cases, so far there is no indication of an increase in the overall rate of myocarditis at the population level. In many ways it mirrors many of the problems seen in the investigation of blood clotting disorders with the Astra Zenica vaccine. Whether more evidence will clarify if this association is really a vaccine associated adverse event, it again shows that the monitoring systems are working, which should be reassuring.

https://www.health.com/condition/in...pfizer-vaccine-heart-inflammation-myocarditis

https://www.military.com/daily-news...inflammation-troops-after-covid-19-shots.html

 

[Janus]

I am now 32 hours past receiving my 2nd Pfizer shot, and so far have had no reaction what-so-ever. No headache, no fatigue, etc. The little bit of tenderness at the injection site is even less than that from the first shot (Though I think that has more to do with the skill of the person giving the shot.)

 

[bhobba]

Here is interesting information about the death risk of Deep Vein Thrombosis, which has a 6% fatality rate, from flying:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1989755/#:~:text=The risk of venous thrombosis,the absolute risk is unknown.

Unless my math is astray, that means in an 8 week period after a flight of at least 4 hours; there is a 12.8 in a million chance of dying. This is 12 or so times higher than the risk of death from the Oxford vaccine and clots (estimated about 5-6 per million cases with about a 20% death rate to give about a 1 in a million chance of death). I do not know the odds of getting it after the J&J vaccine, but I believe it is lower than the Oxford vaccine. So the question is would you be worried about a 4-hour flight? If not, why worry about the Oxford or J&J vaccine?

I am booked in for my Oxford shot at 3:15 Monday.

Thanks
Bill

 

[artis]

As someone who got vaccinated the "natural" read "hard" way, I have now read much more about the disease also talked to doctors etc. I got Covid from someone who had symptoms, we only talked for about 5 minutes and never came closer than 1.5 meters, mine was the UK variant I think as that is the most widespread as of now in my country. Some 87%.
I was ill this spring from March 25 to 9th of April, I also spent 9 days in a hospital, at first the docs didn't want to take me as I had medium symptoms and fever but I talked them into it, then later I was glad.

First of all I just want to point out that it is I believe in 99% of the cases wiser to go for the vaccine instead of risking the real deal, because it is impossible to know how your body will react to it. I know people personally that had it and did not feel anything and would have never known they were infected unless for a later random antibody blood sample. I also know a few that have died. most others had it mildly. For me it somehow went straight to pneumonia right away.
Now more than a month later I still feel a lack of endurance and some adverse central nervous system effects.The reason I am telling all this is because from what I have gathered I believe that the reason that there are some small fraction of fatality cases from the vaccine with some rare trombosis cases is simply because similar also rare outcomes result from the very virus itself. And as a general rule of thumb I would say that if someone got the vaccine and died from some side effects or complications he or she would have died from the actual virus too.
As for the myocarditis cases with the Pfizer vaccine mentioned here earlier, again the same has happened to people who got the virus. I personally don't think it's as much of a side effects of the vaccine as it is simple a side effect of Covid itself. This is not ofcourse science , merely my opinion but it seems correlated.If I may give an advice I would say that for those that have got the real virus, even if without symptoms it would be advisable to pay attention to any abnormal feelings and symptoms even weeks after, and as also my doctors advised me I will take a few of the basic cardiac tests like 24h monitoring and echo,
also I would personally stay away from any unnecessary physical activity after the vaccine for at least a few days, after all you are injected with a virus and your body needs energy and time to prepare the antibodies and deal with it.
For me personally after I got out of hospital my troponin was at 0.0 so I had no physical heart damage although weeks after while recovering my endurance was very low and even the smallest physical load as walking to the store caused an elevated heart rate. Now 1.5 months after I am slowly getting back to normal yet still experiencing weakness.

 

[symbolipoint]

after all you are injected with a virus and

No. Not the actual virus for these vaccines.

 

[artis]

@symbolipoint you mean the mRNA ones? From what I gather they differ in that they don't contain the weakened version of the virus like a typical vaccine would but instead just contain the part of the virus that helps it to infect our tissue aka "the spike protein" so that our body develops the anti response agents to combat that spike protein so that the virus cannot attach itself successfully ?
PS. I met a woman few days ago that had the virus 3 months ago, she was in a medium severity case, but eventually never needed hospitalization and got back to normal at home. She just like me had lost smell and some taste, then it gradually just like for me came back to normal. Then after about 2 months of being normal one day she suddenly lost smell completely again, it came back the next day.
Sometimes it is hard to believe all these weird side effects if it weren't for someone that I know.
In this way Covid I think differs a lot from the typical flu and other respiratory viruses that instead of just attacking the respiratory system and causing general weakness it additionally causes other weird symptoms like CNS adverse effects which I felt strongly, also arrhythmia which was mildly in my case, and many other symptoms.

Long after the fever itself was gone and my temperature was normal I still had nerve effects and arrhythmia and generally an elevated heart beat.

 

[symbolipoint]

@symbolipoint you mean the mRNA ones? From what I gather they differ in that they don't contain the weakened version of the virus like a typical vaccine would but instead just contain the part of the virus that helps it to infect our tissue aka "the spike protein" so that our body develops the anti response agents to combat that spike protein so that the virus cannot attach itself successfully ?

Yes; something like that. How exactly to say I do not know. Not generally something I had studied much when I was a science student. I saw a couple of articles today in Yahoo, the news articles, describing some of this or mentioning part of this briefly.

 

[pinball1970]

@symbolipoint you mean the mRNA ones? From what I gather they differ in that they don't contain the weakened version of the virus like a typical vaccine would but instead just contain the part of the virus that helps it to infect our tissue aka "the spike protein" so that our body develops the anti response agents to combat that spike protein so that the virus cannot attach itself successfully ?
PS. I met a woman few days ago that had the virus 3 months ago, she was in a medium severity case, but eventually never needed hospitalization and got back to normal at home. She just like me had lost smell and some taste, then it gradually just like for me came back to normal. Then after about 2 months of being normal one day she suddenly lost smell completely again, it came back the next day.
Sometimes it is hard to believe all these weird side effects if it weren't for someone that I know.
In this way Covid I think differs a lot from the typical flu and other respiratory viruses that instead of just attacking the respiratory system and causing general weakness it additionally causes other weird symptoms like CNS adverse effects which I felt strongly, also arrhythmia which was mildly in my case, and many other symptoms.

Long after the fever itself was gone and my temperature was normal I still had nerve effects and arrhythmia and generally an elevated heart beat.

AZ is chimp Adenovirus

 

[bhobba]

No. Not the actual virus for these vaccines.

That's the historical method of doing it. Inject the dead virus. The trouble is, while it works, it is often not that effective. But still, some Covid vaccines have been produced that way, often with an adjuvant which is an additive that increases effectiveness. An example is the Sinovac vaccine from China. It's thought they would be very safe - but efficacy is the issue. Then they have the protein coating of the virus as a vaccine. It is usually more effective and is also often used with an adjuvant. Examples are Novavax (a protein subunit vaccine) and Covax-19 from Professor Peterovsky here in Aus (using an adjuvant he has patented). They are undergoing phase 3 trials now, and if all goes well will likely be available in the second half of the year. Then we have new methods like mRNA and a modified harmless virus that tricks the body into thinking it is the virus you want to vaccinate against. It is further explained here:
https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/emea/four-types-covid-19-vaccine-snapshot

Thanks
Bill

 

[Grasshopper]

Man this is killing me (figuratively I hope). I know I’m whinging, but I rarely get sick, and here I am experiencing full on flu symptoms along with a slightly discomfortable chest after the 2nd Pfizer. In addition to the sore arm.

Being sick sucks, especially when it’s fake sickness meant to train your immune system.

I guess this post doesn’t have much purpose other than therapy. So what did the physicsforums.com community experience after being vaccinated?

I don’t expect many replies if any, but hopefully I’ll have someone besides my girlfriend to comfort my sadness, via reading worse reactions than mine.

I kid I kid.

 

[Grasshopper]

(This added about a month after this thread opened: It turns out I'm a real outlier for side effects to the vaccine, so don't let this post scare you off. My wife says every time I catch a cold or something that it hits me hard. Of course to me that is 'normal.' )

A few days ago a neighbor, my wife, and I received the 2^nd dose of the Moderna vaccine.

Here is a log of my after-effects. I'll try to keep this updated for any significant news.

Hour
0 - Received second dose of Moderna vaccine. As in the first one, didn't even feel the needle or the injection.
1 - Slight soreness in arm muscle.
2 - Sleepy, nap 2hrs, wakened by scam phone call.
6 - Sleepy, go to bed 5hrs early. Arm too sore to sleep on but otherwise not bothersome.
13 - Wake up shivering from cold. Room not cold, start of fever.
17 - Wake up hot. Throw off covers and back to sleep. (fever broke?)
20 - Wake up hot. Throw covers off. (fever broke?) get up after 14hrs sleep. (normal 8.5hrs.)
-- - Lack of energy, brain fog, low appetite.
24 - Temperature about 2.3°F high, but feeling somewhat better. Pulse 101 (usually 63 resting).
25 - Go out to pick up new eye glasses.
26 - Tired. Temperature about 2.7°F high.
-- - Read (some of) newspaper, check PF and Google News.
30 - Sleepy, bed time, again 5 hrs early. Pulse 93.
43 - Wake up, feel OK, temperature normal. Read rest of yesterdays newspaper. Pulse a normal 63.
48 - Wife and I do some shopping & errands.
52 - We are exhausted!
53 - Home, dinner, newspaper, PF .
56 - Tired, temperature normal, post this log. (& maybe check Google news)

edit:
Day 3 -
-- - Awoke 2hrs short of sleep. Hot, threw covers off but couldn't sleep. After 1/2 hr got up, all vitals normal. Appetite normal.
-- - Arm no longer sore.
-- - Tired, low energy, foggy brain all day.
/edit:

edit:
Day 4 -
-- - Normal sleep, mild low energy but got things done, mid afternoon 2hr. nap though.
-- - 'Loose bowels' much of the day, wife had that late yesterday.
/edit:

edit:
Day 18 -
-- - Mild hair loss noted when combing hair in the morning. This tapered off and resolved itself over 7 to 10 days.
/edit:

Of the three of us, I had the heaviest reaction to the vaccine. We all slept the afternoon of the shot and all of us were too tired to do much of anything the following day. My wife had a mild fever of about 1°F and the neighbor claimed no fever.

None of us took anything for symptom relief.

In the end it shows that our immune systems REALLY recognize the spike protein on SARS-COV-2!
It also shows that I REALLY REALLY don't want the real thing.

Cheers,
Tom

p.s. Don't be too concerned about my 'high' fever, my normal body temp is 1 to 1.4 degrees F below 'normal'.

edit:
added pulse rates
/edit:

Man I’m feeling some of this with Pfizer. Sucks. You have my sympathies for your dilemma.

 

[berkeman]

Man this is killing me

Yeah, the reactions to each of the vaccinations varies a lot. I'm active on a Medic forum where we have a thread about our reactions, and I can tell you that the reactions are all over the map. It's just the way it goes, but the bottom line is that the reactions are not too bad (compared to getting COVID-19), and usually even the worst go away in a couple of days.

My first Moderna vax just resulted in a sore deltoid muscle for two days, and my second vax gave me a couple hours of a mild fever and chills overnight. My wife had no reaction to her first vax, and was sick as a dog for two days in bed from her second vax. All is well now, and we both are enjoying the re-opening stage of this pandemic...

 

[Jarvis323]

Man this is killing me (figuratively I hope). I know I’m whinging, but I rarely get sick, and here I am experiencing full on flu symptoms along with a slightly discomfortable chest after the 2nd Pfizer. In addition to the sore arm.

Being sick sucks, especially when it’s fake sickness meant to train your immune system.

I guess this post doesn’t have much purpose other than therapy. So what did the physicsforums.com community experience after being vaccinated?

I don’t expect many replies if any, but hopefully I’ll have someone besides my girlfriend to comfort my sadness, via reading worse reactions than mine.

I kid I kid.

If you have chest tightness or pain, you should seek medical attention asap.

 

[vela]

I don’t expect many replies if any, but hopefully I’ll have someone besides my girlfriend to comfort my sadness, via reading worse reactions than mine.

I kid I kid.

You know the old saying: misery loves company.

In my family, only my brother experienced a strong reaction to the vaccine (both shots), but then, he had COVID a few months earlier. His wife said the second dose kicked her in the butt. A colleague, I heard, was wiped out for five days or so after the second dose. Most of my students who got the second dose said they experienced various side effects, mostly chills and headaches, but it was generally over in a day or two. A friend at Berkeley had double the fun: strong reactions to both doses. A former student told me she felt like she got hit by a train after the second dose.

 

[berkeman]

along with a slightly discomfortable chest

If you have chest tightness or pain, you should seek medical attention asap.

Yeah, what exactly does this mean? Congestion, pain? On a scale of 0-10, what level is that pain?

 

[symbolipoint]

Man this is killing me (figuratively I hope). I know I’m whinging, but I rarely get sick, and here I am experiencing full on flu symptoms along with a slightly discomfortable chest after the 2nd Pfizer. In addition to the sore arm.

Being sick sucks, especially when it’s fake sickness meant to train your immune system.

I guess this post doesn’t have much purpose other than therapy. So what did the physicsforums.com community experience after being vaccinated?

I don’t expect many replies if any, but hopefully I’ll have someone besides my girlfriend to comfort my sadness, via reading worse reactions than mine.

I kid I kid.

No reaction for me from both doses , vaccination for Covid19.

Definite flu-like side-effects from both doses vaccinations for another kind of viral disease, lasting of side-effects being only 8 to 10 hours - then gone.

You SHOULD expect that your side-effects from your Covid-19 vaccinations should also be very short-lived.

 

[Grasshopper]

Yeah, what exactly does this mean? Congestion, pain? On a scale of 0-10, what level is that pain?

Close to zero, and mostly when I lay a certain way, or when I take too deep of a breath. It could be entirely in my head, or just me squishing things, but I’m monitoring it.

I’ll probably swing by an urgent care Monday (and ER if anything at all starts feeling weird).

 

[bhobba]

Yeah, the reactions to each of the vaccinations varies a lot.

It sure does. I just got a sore arm, the same as when I get the Flu shot. Speaking to the disability workers who gave me a hand, they had to alter their vaccine strategy. About half were off for a few days, sometimes longer, after vaccination. To have enough working staff, they had to stagger it instead of vaccinating all quickly.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

If you have chest tightness or pain, you should seek medical attention asap.

For those that got the AZ or J&J (i.e. adenovirus vaccines), be on the lookout for the following:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-14/vaccine-covid19-do-i-have-a-blood-clot-astrazeneca/100065914

See your doctor ASAP. In Aus, we are finding a greater number than overseas, but our death rate from it is just 4%, not 20%. This suggests early detection is critical for this infrequent side effect. I do not think, on this forum, I need to mention that getting vaccinated is more important than waiting for a vaccine that does not have this side effect. At least as far as we can determine today - you can still get it with other vaccines like Pfizer - but it seems to be about the same prevalence as the background number of cases estimated to be .41 in a million in an 8 week period.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Jarvis323]

Close to zero, and mostly when I lay a certain way, or when I take too deep of a breath. It could be entirely in my head, or just me squishing things, but I’m monitoring it.

I’ll probably swing by an urgent care Monday (and ER if anything at all starts feeling weird).

I had chest discomfort when laying on one side and tightness/pressure in chest when breathing, and also some heart palpations. I went to the ER and got back results recently saying right atrial enlargement, which seems pretty serious.

My chest wasn't so much painful at all at first, just some pressure, and when breathing in sometimes it would cause a caugh. Then my stomach started feeling bloated.

This started 7 days after the second dose of the moderna vaccine. However, I had moderate Covid over a year ago and it left a lingering lung/throat internal burning sensation that hasn' gone away and I'm wondering of that could have been the cause.

Then again maybe the rae result was a typo or mistake or I read it wrong. As you can expect I've been pretty nervous about it for the last few days while I wait for clarification.

Anyways, if you have any hint of a heart problem at all, you should see a doctor.

 

[Borek]

Both of us two times Pfizer. Aching arms both times - for about two days.

After the second dose I had sore back, but I have no idea if it was a vaccine or my years showing up, I have similar soreness each time I need to do some physical work around the house. Didn't bother.

Marzena reacted to the second dose a bit worse, she have spent a day in a bed reading. Not that she felt THAT bad, but she is retired so she can afford doing nothing and resting, and side effects are quite a solid reason ;)

 

[atyy]

I don’t expect many replies if any, but hopefully I’ll have someone besides my girlfriend to comfort my sadness, via reading worse reactions than mine.

I kid I kid.

 

[Grasshopper]

I had chest discomfort when laying on one side and tightness/pressure in chest when breathing, and also some heart palpations. I went to the ER and got back results recently saying right atrial enlargement, which seems pretty serious.

My chest wasn't so much painful at all at first, just some pressure, and when breathing in sometimes it would cause a caugh. Then my stomach started feeling bloated.

This started 7 days after the second dose of the moderna vaccine. However, I had moderate Covid over a year ago and it left a lingering lung/throat internal burning sensation that hasn' gone away and I'm wondering of that could have been the cause.

Then again maybe the rae result was a typo or mistake or I read it wrong. As you can expect I've been pretty nervous about it for the last few days while I wait for clarification.

Anyways, if you have any hint of a heart problem at all, you should see a doctor.

Was if discomfort that you could easily forget about or was it worse?

 

[Grasshopper]

Man this is killing me (figuratively I hope). I know I’m whinging, but I rarely get sick, and here I am experiencing full on flu symptoms along with a slightly discomfortable chest after the 2nd Pfizer. In addition to the sore arm.

Being sick sucks, especially when it’s fake sickness meant to train your immune system.

I guess this post doesn’t have much purpose other than therapy. So what did the physicsforums.com community experience after being vaccinated?

I don’t expect many replies if any, but hopefully I’ll have someone besides my girlfriend to comfort my sadness, via reading worse reactions than mine.

I kid I kid.

Fever broke last night. Still sore and have a cough, though. Still going to a doctor Monday just in case the mild chest pain was real and not just me squishing my lungs and chest.

 

[Jarvis323]

Was if discomfort that you could easily forget about or was it worse?

I easily ignored it for 3 days or so then it got worse. Once I read that some people were getting myocarditis, it caused me more concern. If I didn't read that I probably would have completely ignored it. On pain scale I only gave it a 1 or 2 if it could even be called pain.

 

[Grasshopper]

I easily ignored it for 3 days or so then it got worse. Once I read that some people were getting myocarditis, it caused me more concern. If I didn't read that I probably would have completely ignored it. On pain scale I only gave it a 1 or 2 if it could even be called pain.

Thanks for the info. Will definitely be at the doctor's office as soon as they open.

 

[artis]

A close friend of mine got the Johnson single shot vaccine few days ago.
He also drank alcohol the evening after he got the vaccine on the same day. The next day he felt Covid like symptoms, sweating and cold one after the other, increased temperature , dizziness (although this could have also been increased due to hangover) and overall weakness. He still managed to do a quick work and then went back to rest. All symptoms disappeared the next day.

 

[pinball1970]

A close friend of mine got the Johnson single shot vaccine few days ago.
He also drank alcohol the evening after he got the vaccine on the same day. The next day he felt Covid like symptoms, sweating and cold one after the other, increased temperature , dizziness (although this could have also been increased due to hangover) and overall weakness. He still managed to do a quick work and then went back to rest. All symptoms disappeared the next day.

I managed to get my second jab moved forward via an NHS e-mail received on Friday.
New date was Sunday gone BUT I had already arranged to meet friends on the Sat.
Session/Hangover was not severe but reaction after the jab was not great, light headed, dizzy, wiped out.
Not quite like flu like symptoms from first jab but approaching that.
Tired, sore arm, today and avoiding alcohol for a bit.

 

[pinball1970]

We are all lab rats for the pharma cos.

Rather than just posting a claim during a pandemic, can you provide evidence that the vaccines have not been properly tested?

 

[pinball1970]

Why the adverse reactions then.

Can you be specific? You do realize drugs can have side effects? Ever been to the chemist picked up a prescription and read the list of potential side effects in the literature?

 

[symbolipoint]

Why the adverse reactions then.

Already known is that not everyone reacts the same. I know personally three people who've been fully vaccinated. No reactions. A few others (I do not know them - yet) maybe some reactions. Some source may have statistics on the vaccination reactions to show us.

 

[symbolipoint]

Can you be specific? You do realize drugs can have side effects? Ever been to the chemist picked up a prescription and read the list of potential side effects in the literature?

Interesting question, and we should do this reading every time we have a vaccination, but so many of us simply do not. I routinely have had flu vaccination, annually, and almost never had any side effects. One day I received an additional vaccination for a very different disease, and figured nothing would happen (like as no side effects), but several hours later upon having chills and fever, I thought maybe I should read what that literature the pharmacist gave me has to say.

 

[bhobba]

Why the adverse reactions then.

It's how vaccine development works. From basic statistics, infrequent complications can not be picked up by testing in normal numbers. Vaccine developers did normal stage 3 testing of about 30,000. It is usually handled after normal testing by those most at risk being the first to get it. Then once more have used it, more is given the vaccine and so on. We only picked up the current rare problems when millions of doses were given. The chance of dying is about the same as dying while driving to get the vaccine. We know the vaccine is the only way out, so people must have the option to use it. When you have a pandemic like this, people are only too happy to be in the initial group on a risk vs reward basis. It has happened before with the 1976 flu vaccine:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

The only consolation is, even though the Flu that year was not as bad as thought, the lives saved may have been greater than the problems that occurred - but I have never seen an analysis. Back of the envelope calculations based on an about .1% death rate of normal flu indicate it may have.

Thanks
Bill

 

[pinball1970]

Interesting question, and we should do this reading every time we have a vaccination, but so many of us simply do not. I routinely have had flu vaccination, annually, and almost never had any side effects. One day I received an additional vaccination for a very different disease, and figured nothing would happen (like as no side effects), but several hours later upon having chills and fever, I thought maybe I should read what that literature the pharmacist gave me has to say.

One thing that impressed me before both jabs was that the side effects were spelled out. This included the risk of clotting by staff when I was registering and again by the nurse when I was having the jab.

 

[bhobba]

Generally, development of a vaccine takes several months to years. The reason for the delay is extensive testing before administering it to public.

The stage 3 testing numbers were pretty normal. I will not go into what was done more quickly, but it was of no issue as far as public safety is concerned - the safety of those participating in trials was maybe higher, but they were all volunteers. After that, it goes into stage 4, where it is approved for normal use, but usually, only a small number of high-risk people take up the offer (those in nursing homes etc., where the death rate was horrendous). More people would have had the vaccine, so even more confidence is gained. The issue was before people found the infrequent side effects, tons wanted it. It is their choice - we live in a free society. But really, unless in the high-risk group, they should have waited a little bit. In fact, here in Aus, that is how they planned it, and as more used it, infrequent side effects emerged. Then people overreacted. Although the risk of death is about the same as the risk of dying while driving to get the vaccine, many people are scared. The real issue is people need a better understanding of risk vs reward.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Grasshopper]

We are all lab rats for the pharma cos.

More like we’re in a pandemic and desperate times call for desperate measures.EDIT - oh yeah, those of us who waited a few months got to see a bunch more human testing than presumably is done before approval, utilizing our fellow humans getting the vaccines as soon as they were available as trail subjects.

 

[pinball1970]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ine-under-60s-after-teenager-dies-2021-06-11/

The vaccine rollout has been too early to be true. Generally, development of a vaccine takes several months to years. The reason for the delay is extensive testing before administering it to public.

Plenty of threads on here regarding the vaccines. Search, Covid 19, Covid vaccines.
Thread 'Pfizer/Moderna Covid vaccine research papers' https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pfizer-moderna-covid-vaccine-research-papers.997193/

 

[bhobba]

EDIT - oh yeah, those of us who waited a few months got to see a bunch more human testing than presumably is done before approval, utilizing our fellow humans getting the vaccines as soon as they were available as trail subjects.

I don't know what happened in the US, but in the UK and Australia, that is the way the government designed its rollout. First, the very high-risk age care facilities, the frontline workers and so on. The UK seemed to pull it off, but in Aus, it totally fizzled - even now, some disability and front care workers are not vaccinated. We are recovering from our blunders, and I think we will be finished by years end. However, they discovered infrequent problems with our main vaccine, AZ. The Pfizer was meant for aged care, front line workers etc. because it only had three weeks between first and second shots. That means front line workers can return to duties quicker, and aged care residents can have family etc, visit them sooner - they have had it hard as far as visits go. People, however, have overreacted to the dangers of AZ and are demanding Pfizer. The government has not told the public exactly how much Pfizer it has, so nobody really knows if people can be given a choice. Yet everyone says people should be given a choice. It has become a bit irrational, really. I got the AZ without a second thought. Nobody worries about getting into their car and going to the shops, so why worry about the vaccine. But many do.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Laroxe]

Its surprising how many people seem to believe that vaccine development needs to follow some sort of ritual developed in the 1960's. Its surprising how many things in medicine have changed, largely because of research and when you look at the funding that was pumped into research used in the vaccine development, if this hadn't changed I'd be wanting my money back. In fact many of the new technologies used in the Covid 19 vaccines were already being used in other development work, simply switching the methods onto this virus saved a huge amount of time, the timescales used in trials were also reduced by combining some of the early stages. The risks of doing this are risks to the developing companies as candidates might be rejected at a later stage wasting lots of money, government funding allowed the companies to take these risks but the basic trial requirements remain the same.
Its also surprising that some people seem to believe that the occurrence of rare adverse events in a mass vaccination campaign has only ever occurred with the Covid 19 vaccine, in fact when you vaccinate millions of people you frequently encounter such events. I can't think of a vaccine that hasn't been associated with some adverse events. Some people seem to believe that this provides a rational for refusing vaccination, this is when there are still around half a million deaths in Africa, usually in children, from vaccine preventable diseases when maybe one or two might indeed suffer serious adverse effects.