COVID Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

[hutchphd]

That would be consistent with what I experienced. All of the transmission within my group was (in retrospect) from individuals in the two days before they were symptomatic...everybody went to hard quarantine when they became symptomatic so it is hard to tell.

 

[Laroxe]

There’s no way I can remember the study, but I read one that said that while peak viral load was the same for breakthrough cases as it was for unvaccinated, the viral load in vaccinated patients decreased much faster — which indicates they would spread it less over similar time windows.

The problem with the studies suggesting that vaccinated and unvaccinated shed virus at the same rate is in the use of PCR as the measure. PCR measures viral DNA rather than virions capable of causing infection, they may in fact simply be measuring DNA from virus's that have already been inactivated by antibodies.

Really its difficult to know how important this is, early in the pandemic, it was realized that this virus did not spread in a simple person to person way, individual differences in people infected seem to play a much bigger role. Rather than seeing the disease sweep across countries in waves, what we see are clusters of infections occurring across a wide area, these clusters often being associated with events that cause people to gather together. In these situations, it seems that the majority of infections can be traced back to one or a very few individuals. The majority of those infected, don't infect anyone, it seems that 80% of all infections are caused by 10 - 20% of infected individuals. This pattern of spread is called overdispersion, but I don't know if It's still the pattern with the delta variant. Most of the real world studies on transmission have occurred over a period in which vaccination was introduced, usually to specific high risks groups first, these are in fact the very groups that are experiencing significant falls in their antibody levels, but this again isn't really representative.

I think its fairly clear that vaccination does affect the likelihood of infection, but this will be a time critical effect, in Israel they found that people vaccinated in January had a 2.26 times greater risk for a breakthrough infection in July compared to those vaccinated in April. In mid-August over 500 people had been hospitalised with severe disease, of these 59% were fully vaccinated, this sounds worrying until you consider that around 80% of the population is vaccinated. Close to 90% of the vaccinated in hospital were over 60 years of age, while the age range of the unvaccinated was much more widely spread.

There is good evidence that vaccination does reduce the risk of infection and the risk of early infection becoming symptomatic, but this is strongly dependent on the time since vaccination and the effect is short-lived. However, the reduced risk of serious disease and death remains significant over a prolonged period of time.

My own view is that for the people at highest risk a booster dose of vaccine might provide a useful immediate risk reduction, there are indications that this should be offered after at least 6 months after the 2nd dose as this causes the greatest antibody response. It's also suggested that there may be advantages in using a vaccine produced using a different technology, which might broaden the range of antibodies. As vaccination does significantly reduce the severity of an infection, the advantages of a booster dose for most people is debatable. Even at a self-serving level, the advantages of improving global control may ultimately be greater than using the available vaccine for booster doses in which the effects will be minimal and short-lived.

 

[StevieTNZ]

I had my 2nd dose of Pfizer yesterday. Immediately after the injection I felt nauseous, but I've put that down to psychologically induced than anything else. I felt better 20 mins later. Right now all I have is a sore arm where the site is, but the nurse warned me of fever, body chills and headache after receiving a 2nd dose and that Panadol would help. Luckily I have some para+codeine prescribed so I can use that if anything pops up.

 

[Grasshopper]

I had my 2nd dose of Pfizer yesterday. Immediately after the injection I felt nauseous, but I've put that down to psychologically induced than anything else. I felt better 20 mins later. Right now all I have is a sore arm where the site is, but the nurse warned me of fever, body chills and headache after receiving a 2nd dose and that Panadol would help. Luckily I have some para+codeine prescribed so I can use that if anything pops up.

I was told by the nurse if you’re going to have a dangerous reaction, it’s most likely after. Maybe stay vigilant.

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed temporarily for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

After some cleanup of misinformation and the replies, the thread is reopened.

 

[artis]

@Grasshopper The way I understand it is that if one will have an allergic reaction like an anaphylactic shock then that will happen no later than 30 mins after injection with all of the cases I have read about happening within 10-20 minutes after injection. As for me I had a real infection of Covid this spring, a rather serious one, double sided viral pneumonia. Easily the hardest health problem I have ever had, I am normally healthy and don't ever get sick much.
Possibly lack of sleep and stress recently before the infection contributed to my state.
So now about 6 months after I got my first and only Pfizer shot, accoridng to latest laws and medical research 1 shot is enough on average for someone like me with high antibody levels and existing immunity.
So even though I knew I'm fine immunity wise I went and got the shot. This is about the evening of the 2nd day after the shot. I feel a little tired, higher heart rate while doing physical activity. Head is a little dull and harder to concentrate. No fever no chills.
Appetite almost as usual , no differences. Sore arm but is already fading away.
Pretty much the same for another person that I know that got the shot few days before me (also Pfizer) and almost the same for yet another man my age who also got the Pfizer shot few days before.What is interesting and what I want to note here which might get some answers if not now then later is that some of the specific feelings that I have now after the vaccine are literally the same as the ones I got while infected with the real virus. Sure with the real virus came tons of other stuff like cough etc but I'm thinking more specifically the central nervous system effects.
The clarity of thoughts and heart rate and overall vegetative feeling is very similar, I wonder could the spike protein itself be responsible for some of the Covid symptoms and how it interacts with our body?I have had some other vaccines before like tick encephalitis one , and I was tired but that felt differently, this feels like it's a CNS state more than a physical one.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I received my second dose of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine back in the end of June (received my first dose back at the end of April). I had no reaction whatsoever to my first dose (apart from a slight soreness in my arm, which lasted only for a day).

After my 2nd dose, I developed a mild headache a few hours after vaccination, which cleared up again after about an hour, and had a slightly sore arm (similar to when I get the flu vaccine and when I work out my arms intensely at the gym), which lasted for 2 days. No other reactions.

My parents received their 2nd dose around the same time I did, and they had no reaction. My sister received her 2nd dose shortly after I did, and she had similar reactions to mine.

 

[hutchphd]

Looks like myocarditis may be due to inadvertent IV injection (perhaps we should aspirate before plunging) :
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

 

[Grasshopper]

Looks like myocarditis may be due to inadvertent IV injection (perhaps we should aspirate before plunging) :
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

Kind of makes you wonder why this isn’t being done already given it’s supposed to be intramuscular. Is it particularly time consuming? I wouldn’t know.

EDIT — upon reading more, it seems the concern isn’t enough to make it a widely practiced part of IM injection.

 

[artis]

I hope someone more knowledgeable will comment on this research but going through it I felt a bit uneasy.

It also seems that even without Intravenous injection some of the mRNA does get into the bloodstream in normal Intramuscular injection. Probably more or less depending on the individual.
It says in the research

At 7 dpi, the heart of mice in the IV group showed persistent changes of myopericarditis (https://www.physicsforums.com/javascript%3A;), whereas the IM group only showed vascular congestion, myocardial edema, and occasional foci of cardiomyocyte degeneration

I suppose this means even the mice injected IM had some minor effects on the heart.

 

[artis]

Now as I am writing this I understand I will probably not gather much sympathy but I want to be honest so I will put it down.
I have long known that I have a very sensitive CNS, I don't usually react badly to most drugs but I am sensitive to certain substances that interact strongly with CNS, even a strong morning coffee can make me extra jumpy, my heart rate goes up and my blood pressure increases. Back when I was smoking I could never smoke together with even a light coffee , sometimes my heart just started to run like crazy.
Now long story short after Covid I had almost 2 months of very slow recovery, after the physical weakness was past ina few weeks, a much longer mental weakness and sensitivity stayed. I thought it's an effect of the double sided viral pneumonia I had but now I am almost certain the neurological effects are mostly due to the spike protein. This ofcourse is not a scientific admission but now it's day 6 after my 1st and only Pfizer shot. In total I got the shot 6 months after Covid.
I have almost the exact same neurological symptoms as when I had Covid without the fever and cough and physical damage of course.
In short, a dizzy head that sometimes borders on straight out drunk, feelings of strain in body parts from time to time, sudden onset of heat and sometimes cold, increased heart rate at idle or before sleep, insomnia, etc.
I had the same effects after Covid only then they were larger.

I also read very similar stories from others affected in the same way.
I also know this is not just a random reaction from vaccines in general as I have had them before and the reactions were different.
A woman that I know well also had the exact same neurological effects as me. She also had Covid at the same time I did.

Not sure whether there are any studies on how the spike protein affects certain body organs and systems but from what I know now I am pretty certain it can make a rather nasty CNS reaction in individuals that have a sensitive CNS or some background problems in that area.
In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries. Yes for most it goes without much problems but there are risks of serious adverse effects I personally think a vaccination is something you should talk before you do it with your doctor and if you are not sure make some tests to see the shape your body and immune system is in.

I know personally local people (mostly older) who have paid very rare visits to a doctor if any and have had some minor or unknown preexisting conditions then they just went for the shot like it's a shot of vodka. Some of them got serious problems afterwards , one lady ended up in hospital.
For anyone reading this I just want to emphasize that a vaccine is a serious deal and should be taken seriously and it can have side effects not all of them written down.
I will write down how the effects have gone after some time in case anyone is interested

 

[hutchphd]

Now as I am writing this I understand I will probably not gather much sympathy but I want to be honest so I will put it down.

"Ya pays your money and you takes your chances"
I had Guillian-Barre five years ago...couldn't walk or see straight. Not fun. Nevertheless I got the first available Moderna last February. Had modest reaction. Haven't got COVID. Feel pretty damned good for a 69 year old.
I think your assessment of relevant risks is very much off the mark (and pointedly lacking any consideration of societal obligations).

 

[fresh_42]

In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries. Yes for most it goes without much problems but there are risks of serious adverse effects I personally think a vaccination is something you should talk before you do it with your doctor and if you are not sure make some tests to see the shape your body and immune system is in.

I know personally local people (mostly older) who have paid very rare visits to a doctor if any and have had some minor or unknown preexisting conditions then they just went for the shot like it's a shot of vodka. Some of them got serious problems afterwards , one lady ended up in hospital.
For anyone reading this I just want to emphasize that a vaccine is a serious deal and should be taken seriously and it can have side effects not all of them written down.

This is pure nonsense: the comparison is ridiculous, the hidden assumptions are offensive, and the hidden conclusion is dangerous.

The only valid part of it is, that we shortened the usual 10 years of excessive studies because we are in a state of emergency. And you didn't mention even that. The vaccines weren't produced in some countries, the deal wasn't made in a grocery store, in fact, it was cooperation, not a deal, the vaccine wasn't delivered untested or without studies, which is why it took about half a year before market introduction.

Please stop that kind of propaganda. It is very, very close to misinformation. And it is a slap in the face of all people on this globe who haven't the luxury to get vaccinated at all!

I will write down how the effects have gone after some time in case anyone is interested

Please don't. I know someone, who knows someone, who has heard ... is not an acceptable basis for a scientific forum.

 

[artis]

I feel your reaction @fresh_42 is far more in line with religious thinking than whatever I wrote down, did you even read what I said?
I never made a point about how the vaccines were made all I said is that they can have adverse side effects that can come as a surprise for some and that people who take the vaccine would do better if they did that in a clinic or under supervision because (not sure how about US) but where I live people can also get it in food stores.

Now I feel bad that this all has gotten to a religious state where talking pure medicine is now a crime but the people I was referring to including myself are not someone told someone, I know those people personally and I feel insulted that you hold me to such a low standard as some internet troll.

I never said I encourage to not take a vaccine , I said one should talk to a doctor and know one's health condition as a good advice.
But for God's sake if this brings so much emotion to you then please I will apologize even if for no reason

This thread is named "what to expect after a vaccine" I said what I got and what my mom got and some other folks, now I can't show you scientific proof and no one quite frankly can, unless the defects are very serious it is next to impossible to prove a link between vaccine and those effects just like it is impossible to prove a clear link between non life threatening exposure to radiation and cancer in many cases, and I know you know that.
I listened to a local tv show where one of the top cardiologists in my country stated that even in the rare cases were relatives have reported that the person who died got a shot in the last month before death it is very hard to prove that the death (trombosis) was vaccine induced only.
So are will you require scientific proof for all the other who posted here or just me because you disliked my side effects ?

 

[fresh_42]

I feel your reaction @fresh_42 is far more in line with religious thinking than whatever I wrote down, did you even read what I said?

Did you read what you wrote?

I feel insulted that you hold me to such a low standard as some internet troll.

Well, ...

In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries.

I analyzed what you wrote linguistically and I can prove my claims. But this would be off-topic. The alternative to my response would have been to delete your post as misinformation, at least for the lack of references.

 

[artis]

@fresh_42 I edited my last post to reflect more overall on this thread as such and the way I expressed what I observed , anyway nothing of what you or I say will minimize my side effects so I might as well just leave this to rest and sit out and wait for them to end, hopefully others don't experience them longer.

The alternative to my response would have been to delete your post as misinformation, at least for the lack of references.

Just to say this one more time so that we are all on the same page , I think it is impossible to ask for scientific reference in a thread about vaccine side effects as side effects are always personal and unless someone is being medically analyzed under supervision and monitored it would be impossible not just for me but for anyone participating here to prove their symptoms.
I guess in a time of much division we still need some faith in one another

 

[russ_watters]

I'll be a little more gentle:

In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries. Yes for most it goes without much problems but there are risks of serious adverse effects I personally think a vaccination is something you should talk before you do it with your doctor and if you are not sure make some tests to see the shape your body and immune system is in.

This is a really bad take. The reason why there are vaccine clinics basically everywhere people can think of where they might attract a lot of people is for accessibility, which is critical for fighting this pandemic.

The vaccinators ask basic screening and eligibility questions, but beyond that people always have a personal duty/responsibility to know their own risk factors, and having the vaccine accessible doesn't transfer that responsibility to the person giving it any more than the person selling you the cheeseburger bears responsibility for your heart disease. For this vaccine the problem is far on the opposite end of the spectrum, that people are hyper-aware to the point of over-stating the risks.

Your take would effectively require vaccines to only be given in doctors' offices following a checkup appointment with a doctor (and tests?). Such a requirement would have made efficient distribution of the vaccine impossible.

 

[artis]

Your take would effectively require vaccines to only be given in doctors' offices following a checkup appointment with a doctor (and tests?). Such a requirement would have made efficient distribution of the vaccine impossible.

Yes you are right that would seriously slow down this thing, in a time of choosing the lesser evil it's not on the menu and I understand why.
And even for me where I did many tests both blood and otherwise I still am experiencing unwanted symptoms.

But you guys kind of shocked me with such a "high fever" reaction truth be told, asking for scientific references for personal symptoms and calling it propaganda and irresponsible I mean this vaccine question is now so politicized that quite frankly it's becoming impossible to talk it clearly. Both sides are to blame both those that say the shots contain graphene and are made for public sterilization aka crackpots as well as those that deny any possibility that a vaccine can cause any side reaction including in rare cases death.

 

[russ_watters]

And even for me where I did many tests both blood and otherwise I still am experiencing unwanted symptoms.

But you guys kind of shocked me with such a "high fever" reaction truth be told, asking for scientific references for personal symptoms and calling it propaganda and irresponsible...

Please recognize that even aside from the policy issue, what you are saying about reactions is way, way, way outside the norm. Because of that, it triggers the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" rule, and not to put too fine a point on it, but, yep, what you are saying makes you sound like an anti-vaxer and that's why the reaction was so aggressive.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes you are right that would seriously slow down this thing, in a time of choosing the lesser evil it's not on the menu and I understand why.
And even for me where I did many tests both blood and otherwise I still am experiencing unwanted symptoms.

But you guys kind of shocked me with such a "high fever" reaction truth be told, asking for scientific references for personal symptoms and calling it propaganda and irresponsible I mean this vaccine question is now so politicized that quite frankly it's becoming impossible to talk it clearly. Both sides are to blame both those that say the shots contain graphene and are made for public sterilization aka crackpots as well as those that deny any possibility that a vaccine can cause any side reaction including in rare cases death.

I felt ill after my first jab, for about 48 hours then it subsided. It was a bit like but not as bad as flu. AZ. Every one I knew had similar.
It was explained to me before my injection that I could expect symptoms and that there was a 1/100,000 chance of something more serious like a clot ( not necessarily resulting in death)They in turn asked me about allergies and anything underlying.
It is difficult to put an exact number on this but if you look on cases verses death in the UK we are at about 2%. It could be a lot less than that say 1/200? As not all cases have been picked up. It cannot be any less than 1/500 as 0.2% of the entire UK population have already died from COVID and no one is suggesting all 66M of us have had it. This is still a long long way from 1/100,000 so suffice to say I like my Vaccine odds verses the COVID odds. This is without the consideration of a hospital visit or long COVID19.
Hopefully your symptoms will subside.

 

[artis]

Well I believe I have some authority when I speak on this issue, I had both a severe Covid and a vaccine with it's side effects I can compare very well.
My Covid was worse by any measure. As far as I am now (if the symptoms will not get worse) I can say that vaccine has had minor symptoms compared to those I battled after a double sided viral pneumonia. All I said from the beginning is that the spike protein most likely has some CNS interaction that causes these rather unpleasant symptoms (heart rate/beat, dizziness, muscle pain etc) Because I had the exact same ones after Covid also together with the rest of the bunch. But I have done some thinking and I believe I can single out the ones that are the same both from real infection and vaccine.
As for the physical symptoms like fever which is rather common I had none, no temperature, no fever no real chills.
I perfectly get your point @pinball1970 the odds especially for older people are way in favor of vaccine.

Please recognize that even aside from the policy issue, what you are saying about reactions is way, way, way outside the norm. Because of that, it triggers the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" rule, and not to put too fine a point on it, but, yep, what you are saying makes you sound like an anti-vaxer and that's why the reaction was so aggressive.

Listen russ I have always liked your style here and you have been an overall nice forum comrade but in this case I do feel both you and @fresh_42 just got mad for no reason. I really didn't push anti-vax ideas, never have, and the extraordinary claims rule cannot apply in this ,because as I already said, it would be stupid to expect for me to be able to prove to you my symptoms, you just have to trust me on this , logic is on my side there is no gain for me to come here waste my time writing something I made up, I just wanted to put it down in case someone else gets to have the same reaction and it' possible, my symptoms one way or the other are all written down in the adverse effects websites run by government agencies both here where I live as well as in US.
Also my idea that people should be more careful towards their health and know their condition before going taking drugs is I believe a well based and logical one. I mean most drugs are prescription exactly for that reason.
I personally think ,and I hope I am still allowed to express my own opinion, that many science oriented folks have gotten bit emotional over this because on one side we have a health problem- pandemic on the other side we have some percentage of vaxxed folks experiencing bad side effects and no option here is really good. It's just a matter of choosing the lesser evil.
But just as we shouldn't be anti-vaxxers we also shouldn't be "anti-side effecters"
Unless of course you believe I am a liar for no gain.PS. I also would say to my own alibi that I am a trustworthy person and I keep my health checked regularly and read medical papers etc. I am not the type of person to just feel a headache and blame the weather.

 

[hutchphd]

 

[russ_watters]

Well I believe I have some authority when I speak on this issue, I had both a severe Covid and a vaccine with it's side effects I can compare very well...

All I said from the beginning is that the spike protein most likely has some CNS interaction that causes these rather unpleasant symptoms (heart rate/beat, dizziness, muscle pain etc)...

[separate post] This thread is named "what to expect after a vaccine"...

..and the extraordinary claims rule cannot apply in this ,because as I already said, it would be stupid to expect for me to be able to prove to you my symptoms, you just have to trust me on this , logic is on my side there is no gain for me to come here waste my time writing something I made up, I just wanted to put it down in case someone else gets to have the same reaction and it' possible, my symptoms one way or the other are all written down in the adverse effects websites run by government agencies both here where I live as well as in US...

Unless of course you believe I am a liar for no gain.

You have a point about the thread itself, and we're discussing in the moderator's forum if we should shut it down. It is indeed inviting personal anecdotes, and, well, they can sometimes be problematic.

I don't think you're lying, but what I'm hearing (most of what you were talking about in post #162) is that you believe you have an undiagnosed central nervous system illness that's pretty severe yet not severe enough for you to get diagnosed, and you think it's being triggered by a vaccine reaction which is not, as far as I know, documented elsewhere, and you think you know the mechanism. And others have experienced what you believe is the same issue...because again, it's common. And common and serious enough that we should formalize a medical screening process prior to vaccination. That's an awful lot of speculation (and a massive public policy change) about something that if real and common should be documented in scientific study/literature already. No, I don't think you're lying, but I do think that you are letting your imagination run a bit.

 

[russ_watters]

Based on moderator discussion we're going to lock this thread. It was something of a problematic double-edged sword from the beginning. Thanks everyone for contributing.

 

[bhobba]

Please recognize that even aside from the policy issue, what you are saying about reactions is way, way, way outside the norm.

Indeed it is. The development of vaccines is done on a risk/reward basis. Because of the seriousness of Covid, the risk/reward was to accelerate the process. It has saved countless lives, so it was a success - the bad reactions are negligible in comparison. Even in one outbreak, Sydney at the moment, it is estimated Pfizer has saved 5808 lives:
https://www.burnet.edu.au/news/1506...ctions_for_second_epidemic_wave_in_sydney_nsw

Medical professionals are not running away from the risks - all are well aware of what happened with the 1976 Flu vaccine:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

The current vaccines have overall proved a stunning success. Yes, like all medicines, there have been vaccine complications, some even fatal such as the one in a million risk of dying from CVT with the AZ vaccine. But it must be kept in mind that even getting out of bed in the morning carries a 2.5 in a million risk of dying. Do you never get out of bed? Of course not. We all must accept some risk in our lives.

Thanks
Bill

 

[russ_watters]

Based on moderator discussion we're going to lock this thread. It was something of a problematic double-edged sword from the beginning. Thanks everyone for contributing.

Per multiple member requests this thread is being re-opened. Please keep in mind the following ground-rules:

This thread is for relaying/discussing either:
1. Your own personal, fact-based experience with the vaccine (do not attempt to self-diagnose or otherwise speculate as to the nature of interactions with medicines/conditions).
2. Clinically recognized vaccine effects.

This thread may not be used to diagnose any health issue or speculate about undocumented vaccine side effects.

 

[Laroxe]

Well I believe I have some authority when I speak on this issue, I had both a severe Covid and a vaccine with it's side effects I can compare very well.
My Covid was worse by any measure. As far as I am now (if the symptoms will not get worse) I can say that vaccine has had minor symptoms compared to those I battled after a double sided viral pneumonia. All I said from the beginning is that the spike protein most likely has some CNS interaction that causes these rather unpleasant symptoms (heart rate/beat, dizziness, muscle pain etc) Because I had the exact same ones after Covid also together with the rest of the bunch. But I have done some thinking and I believe I can single out the ones that are the same both from real infection and vaccine.
As for the physical symptoms like fever which is rather common I had none, no temperature, no fever no real chills.
I perfectly get your point @pinball1970 the odds especially for older people are way in favor of vaccine.Listen russ I have always liked your style here and you have been an overall nice forum comrade but in this case I do feel both you and @fresh_42 just got mad for no reason. I really didn't push anti-vax ideas, never have, and the extraordinary claims rule cannot apply in this ,because as I already said, it would be stupid to expect for me to be able to prove to you my symptoms, you just have to trust me on this , logic is on my side there is no gain for me to come here waste my time writing something I made up, I just wanted to put it down in case someone else gets to have the same reaction and it' possible, my symptoms one way or the other are all written down in the adverse effects websites run by government agencies both here where I live as well as in US.
Also my idea that people should be more careful towards their health and know their condition before going taking drugs is I believe a well based and logical one. I mean most drugs are prescription exactly for that reason.
I personally think ,and I hope I am still allowed to express my own opinion, that many science oriented folks have gotten bit emotional over this because on one side we have a health problem- pandemic on the other side we have some percentage of vaxxed folks experiencing bad side effects and no option here is really good. It's just a matter of choosing the lesser evil.
But just as we shouldn't be anti-vaxxers we also shouldn't be "anti-side effecters"
Unless of course you believe I am a liar for no gain.PS. I also would say to my own alibi that I am a trustworthy person and I keep my health checked regularly and read medical papers etc. I am not the type of person to just feel a headache and blame the weather.

I think artis you might be missing some relevant information about our understanding of Covid 19 and the vaccination. While it's certainly true that the virus has behaved in some unusual ways, that doesn't mean we don't know a great deal about it, and this information is increasing all the time.
The problem is that this is a new disease, which has generated a great deal of anxiety, while at the same time the information people get is clouded by misunderstandings and misinformation. This has lead to a situation in which people have become much more vigilant about any symptom or experiences, its characteristic of one of the way's anxiety tried to protect us. Unfortunately it simply isn't true that having Covid and the vaccine means you can speak with authority, all you can do is speculate about the things you become aware of. Many of the same reactions are seen following other vaccinations, but most people simply ignore them, they are seen as ordinary.

It's certainly not the case that all the things that people experience are individual or difficult to understand, vaccinations work by presenting an immune challenge which has a range of general and specific effects on the body. Most of the adverse effects of vaccinations occur as a result of the initial activation of the immune system and commonly occur with most vaccinations and in fact in most infections. These reactions are extensively monitored in various countries, particularly because of its emergency use designation, this means we have data related to around 6.5 billion vaccinations. It's also worth remembering that having a vaccination doesn't stop other health problems, but this doesn't mean that there is no way of knowing why things occur. You use the example of thrombosis, a common problem regardless of vaccination, but in fact the type of thrombosis associated with Covid vaccination tends to be associated with particular vaccines, within a particular timeframe, and it has a number of unusual features along with specific biomarkers. So, when you describe the symptoms of Covid being worse, well that of course is entirely predictable, as is feeling tired. Some of the symptoms that we see in Covid infection can also occur, though they are mild and short-lived, most of these symptoms are the result of systemic effects and occur as a result of our own bodies defences rather than because of particular effects on the CNS, in fact the vaccine doesn't contain the full spike protein, only the instructions to produce specific part of this protein. I suspect some of your speculations about this was one of the issues people reacted to, the symptoms like a fast heart rate are easily explained by the reactivity or even by anxiety.

I suppose the general concern is in the focus on adverse events to the vaccine which when compared to the risks of the disease are really quite trivial, even some precautions taken early in the vaccination campaign have been dropped, the risks being so small. Investigating adverse events to understand them and using the data available to us, we have even managed to reduce some very rare but more dangerous adverse events. Since the UK introduced age restrictions on the use of the astra zenica vaccine, vaccine induced thrombosis has virtually disappeared and the cardiomyopathy associated with the mRNA vaccines hasn't killed anyone for some time.

 

[Astronuc]

A county in Washington on Tuesday confirmed that a woman died from blood-clotting complications after receiving Johnson & Johnson's single-dose COVID-19 vaccine. She is believed to be the fourth person to have died from such a complication.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fourth-person-dies-from-rare-blood-clotting-syndrome-after-receiving-jandj-vaccine/ar-AAPaMgq

The CDC report nearly 8 million JNJ vaccines have been administered during March and April 2021.

According to information from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), there were 653 reports of fainting events (fainting and near-fainting) among nearly 8 million doses of J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine administered in the United States in March and April 2021.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/janssen.html

More doses have been given since April. Even so, the risk based on readily available data would be 4 / 8 million, or 0.5 E-6, and that is apparently with folks who have certain rare conditions.

 

[russ_watters]

I think artis you might be missing some relevant information about our understanding of Covid 19 and the vaccination...

Let's move on from this line of discussion please. artis won't be returning to the discussion. I can prune the problematic posts if need be, but was hoping to not have to.

 

[Laroxe]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fourth-person-dies-from-rare-blood-clotting-syndrome-after-receiving-jandj-vaccine/ar-AAPaMgq

The CDC report nearly 8 million JNJ vaccines have been administered during March and April 2021.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/janssen.html

More doses have been given since April. Even so, the risk based on readily available data would be 4 / 8 million, or 0.5 E-6, and that is apparently with folks who have certain rare conditions.

Yes, this is another viral vector vaccine where this has been seen. I wonder why they haven't applied an age restriction as they have with the Astra Zenica vaccine.
https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-reports-rare-clots-uk-scientists-2021-08-11/

 

[Tom.G]

A study of common side effects from the vaccine has been posted. The most common is Fatigue (~67%), with Headache running a close second (~60%).

"An objective systematic comparison of the most common adverse events of COVID-19 vaccines"​

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.11.21264830v1.full.pdf

Or if you prefer a short synopsis,

"Researchers identify common side effects of three COVID-19 vaccines"​

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...-side-effects-of-three-COVID-19-vaccines.aspx

Cheers,
Tom

 

[morrobay]

I'm not sure healthy 20 year olds should risk vaccination. https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...nt-loses-leg-after-second-cross-jab-then-dies. https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/a-26-year-old-woman-dies-after-getting-first-sinovac-vaccine-shot

 

[B4blue]

I had the real thing and I barely noticed it. Probably because I'm dealing with worse issues, like two autoimmune diseases, but I'm slowly healing, with carnivore diet.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not sure healthy 20 year olds should risk vaccination. https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...nt-loses-leg-after-second-cross-jab-then-dies. https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/a-26-year-old-woman-dies-after-getting-first-sinovac-vaccine-shot

I'm not sure corellation proves causation in that case, but risk is a numbers game. How likely is death from a blood clot after a vaccine? How likely is death from COVID? Compare them and you've evaluated risk.

Be sure. Don't guess.

 

[Stephenk53]

According to https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/is-it-true/is-it-true-does-the-vaxzevria-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-cause-blood-clots

There has been a link established between the AstraZeneca vaccine and a very rare but serious side effect called thrombosis in combination with thrombocytopenia. There is a very low chance of this side effect, which may occur in around 4-6 people in every million after being vaccinated

This shows that compared to Covid 19 deaths getting the vaccine is much lower risk than getting Covid 19 unless you have a pre-existing condition related to vaccination.

 

[Laroxe]

I'm not sure healthy 20 year olds should risk vaccination. https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...nt-loses-leg-after-second-cross-jab-then-dies. https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/a-26-year-old-woman-dies-after-getting-first-sinovac-vaccine-shot

Well the vaccine's used were both using killed virus, the traditional approach to many vaccines in the past, it is considered rather less effective than the vaccines using newer technology. Vaccination of course doesn't prevent the day to day risks of adverse health events and in the sad case of the young woman, it seems unlikely that a systematic infection would be related to the vaccine. The mother might blame the vaccine, but unfortunately people do die, even young people and in this case if the diagnosis is right there doesn't seem to be any direct association.

The association for the young man does seem stronger and warrants further investigation. I know that in Thailand around 7.9 million vaccinations have been given with around 24.6 per 100,000 reporting significant side effects, there were also 103 deaths. (1.3 per 100,000). So far, investigations into 43 of these cases have been finished, none were considered to be vaccine related. Overall the rates seem at least comparable to the other vaccines available, the main concern with these vaccines appears to be their lower effectiveness.

It seems that most of the stories and the information is sourced from newspapers without their sources identified and it is true that the data we have on the adverse events to the Chinese vaccines is more limited. However serious illness and deaths remains rare following the vaccine, it looks as if the risks from contracting the disease are around 1000 times greater.

It is true that younger people are less likely to experience a serious illness from Covid-19 and the balance of risks has been the subject of some debate when it comes to vaccinating children. However in the current wave of infections in the west the age demographics of infection appears to have changed with the main drivers of infection being in the 20 – 49 age groups, they tend to be less ill than older people and so maintain their social contacts. Younger children when returning to school, because of their social behaviour can potentially become drivers of infection.

 

[morrobay]

The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of Covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show Covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.

 

[Laroxe]

The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of Covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show Covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.

Yes, I realized that, but the debate follows the reasoning that while 20-year-olds are unlikely to die they are in the age range considered to be responsible for the high rate of infection and they also engage in more risk taking. The greater the number infected the greater the risk, and the risk is real, I recently looked at some figures that showed over 300 deaths in the US in 2021, OK the rate rises quite quickly with age but even so there haven't been that many vaccine related deaths. As you say, its easy to show that Covid is more dangerous than vaccinations, but that's because it is, even in 20-year-olds. As age decreases, the risk gets even smaller, and the issue of the primary purpose of vaccination being to protect others becomes even more problematic.

You have to remember that we don't live in isolation and many institutions face the responsibility to provide a safe environment for the people they serve, this is a legal requirement in many places and so many organisations are actually mandating vaccinations, really to protect themselves. Schools and Universities face the same issues and they are not new, think about the requirements for illnesses like measles. It might seem unreasonable but if we live in a society we are always faced with the issue of social responsibility, while the individual has rights so do the individuals they come into contact with. Even now, a 20-year-old can indeed refuse vaccination, that's their right, but that may mean they can't attend University, they can't get a job and they can't travel abroad, because these organisations have rights as well. It's an interesting moral problem, but when you have ante vaccine /anti mask demonstrations to support their beliefs with threats of violence, it makes the moral uncertainty much easier to bear.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Unfortunately I lost my psychiatrist due to a vaccine mandate being put on people who provide health services here in NZ. He was rather good and having just lost my social worker (who moved onto the role of a social worker in a prison setting), I now need to acquaint myself with new people who don't know me to have my mental health treated. Notes can be handy, but I've had this psychiatrist since 2012.

I had my suspicions when I first asked him 'have you had the jab' and he replied 'that's private medical information'. When I met with my new nurse today, who broke the news to me that he quit, she mentioned its in the news -- online -- where he expresses his view for not getting the Pfizer vaccine (said in his capacity as a private citizen). A subsequent Google has presented those items to me - a video, a news article and two letters he wrote to our Prime Minister (back in 2020 and again 2021).

 

[Borg]

The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of Covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show Covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.

This only considers fatalities. 20-somethings like everyone else, can still get long haul symptoms from Covid when they aren't vaccinated.

 

[hutchphd]

The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of Covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show Covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.

And they can also pass it along to more vulnerable people who may be immunocompromised. And they can provide the system within which the virus can mutate and naturally select.
Please try to see beyond the end of your nose...

.

 

[Borg]

And they can also pass it along to more vulnerable people who may be immunocompromised. And they can provide the system within which the virus can mutate and naturally select.
Please try to see beyond the end of your nose...

.

I've explained this to people using a water analogy. If you're vaccinated you're like a small puddle of water where the virus can mutate. If not, you're the equivalent of Hudson Bay.

Obviously not to scale.

 

[morrobay]

Ok my posts have a narrow scope. And from the perspective of healthy twenty year olds decisions. https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205627/conscript-dies-day-after-second-vaccine-shot

 

[hutchphd]

You are not alone.

 

[jtbell]

My wife and I had our booster (third) doses of the Moderna vaccine two days ago, Wednesday afternoon. On Thursday, my side effects compared to the second dose in March were stronger in some ways (aches, chills and general "lousiness") but weaker in others (no fever or headache). Now, Friday evening, they're mostly gone.

My wife was affected more strongly than I, but less than her second dose.

 

[pinball1970]

Ok my posts have a narrow scope. And from the perspective of healthy twenty year olds decisions. https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205627/conscript-dies-day-after-second-vaccine-shot

Vaccine programs work on populations not individuals. With something like this, a novel virus with previously unknown pathology there is absolutely no reason to avoid vaccination if that age group has been given the ok.
I think the only real sticking point in the UK was 12-15 year age group. The Vaccine advisory body JCVI advised against and the government decided to go ahead but it was not clear cut. Very Marginal benefits verses marginal risk from the Vaccine. Cases were approaching 50,000 per day at the time and these were (and still are ) translating to deaths.
The kids are not dying they are visiting Nana who will die because she is 83.
We hit a high of 263 deaths in a day this week which would give us 96000 deaths in a year. Edit. Yes @PeroK I've changed my mind.

 

[Grasshopper]

Well the vaccine's used were both using killed virus, the traditional approach to many vaccines in the past, it is considered rather less effective than the vaccines using newer technology. Vaccination of course doesn't prevent the day to day risks of adverse health events and in the sad case of the young woman, it seems unlikely that a systematic infection would be related to the vaccine. The mother might blame the vaccine, but unfortunately people do die, even young people and in this case if the diagnosis is right there doesn't seem to be any direct association.

The association for the young man does seem stronger and warrants further investigation. I know that in Thailand around 7.9 million vaccinations have been given with around 24.6 per 100,000 reporting significant side effects, there were also 103 deaths. (1.3 per 100,000). So far, investigations into 43 of these cases have been finished, none were considered to be vaccine related. Overall the rates seem at least comparable to the other vaccines available, the main concern with these vaccines appears to be their lower effectiveness.

It seems that most of the stories and the information is sourced from newspapers without their sources identified and it is true that the data we have on the adverse events to the Chinese vaccines is more limited. However serious illness and deaths remains rare following the vaccine, it looks as if the risks from contracting the disease are around 1000 times greater.

It is true that younger people are less likely to experience a serious illness from Covid-19 and the balance of risks has been the subject of some debate when it comes to vaccinating children. However in the current wave of infections in the west the age demographics of infection appears to have changed with the main drivers of infection being in the 20 – 49 age groups, they tend to be less ill than older people and so maintain their social contacts. Younger children when returning to school, because of their social behaviour can potentially become drivers of infection.

There is one and only one type of source anyone should be trusting or posting here, IMHO: peer reviewed scientific publications.

 

[phinds]

Ok my posts have a narrow scope. And from the perspective of healthy twenty year olds decisions.

You left out the word "selfish" in front of healthy.

 

[Laroxe]

There is one and only one type of source anyone should be trusting or posting here, IMHO: peer reviewed scientific publications.

Not all information is available in such a form and not everything labelled as scientific is trustworthy. We all. and this includes researchers, have to have a starting point perhaps in theory or in observation, maybe of single events, but we then must be able to think critically about the issue. Simply repeating what is said in research would be very boring, we learn from discussing evidence, it allows us to use the expertise of everyone involved. Having said that, the principle you restate is a good one, these publications have at least some sort of review of quality of the information it contains and the articles are written in a way that should help in a critical review.

The management of Covid-19 is embedded in science, but, as yet we can't claim to have many definitive answers. The actions taken by individuals or governments are often based on the selective information of sources with clear biases. There are then moral, ethical, social and economic issues to consider, exactly the same issues that scientists have to take into account in the methods they use and in their conclusions, we ignore this at our peril. I think discussing giving the vaccine to young people, who are unlikely to directly benefit and when the balance of risk/benefit assessments offers less support, has been discussed in the media and is useful. It's become even more relevant as vaccine mandates are being introduced across the world, the issue is ultimately an ethical one and the science uncertain, but, we can't have scientists campaigning for more evidence based government and then dodging difficult issues.