Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

[arildno]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

 

[Curious3141]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

You've expressed yourself very eloquently. I've had a few gay friends (platonic, of course) in the past, they're nice guys and there was no difficulty in interacting with them. Maybe I just wasn't their type, who knows ?

 

[Lisa!]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all

Maybe because it seems abnormal since there is no such a thing in nature for example about animals!But of course don't ask me how I know we don't have the same about animals...!

 

[Curious3141]

Maybe because it seems abnormal since there is no such a thing in nature for example about animals!But of course don't ask me how I know we don't have the same about animals...!

Are you kidding ?! There are *plenty* of examples of homosexual behaviour in the (rest of the) animal kingdom.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

 

[arildno]

You've expressed yourself very eloquently. I've had a few gay friends (platonic, of course) in the past, they're nice guys and there was no difficulty in interacting with them. Maybe I just wasn't their type, who knows ?

I can tell you straight away what's "wrong" with you: You're straight.
You could only "satisfy" a gay man on his "grunt" level; you're not a kindred spirit, and that's what we are attracted to when we've matured.

You're not singing, we can't sense you.

 

[Lisa!]

Are you kidding ?! There are *plenty* of examples of homosexual behaviour in the (rest of the) animal kingdom.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

I'll take a look later.

 

[Curious3141]

Homosexuality is neither as rare or as "deviant" as many of us pretend. I've heard estimates of male homosexuality ranging from 5 to 10 %. Even assuming the lower bound, that means one out of twenty random males in the population (on average) is gay (whether or not they would readily admit it, perhaps even to themselves). Hardly rare.

Given that prevalence, I wouldn't even consider it abnormal in any way. Just normal variation, really. And it hurts no-one.

 

[Curious3141]

I can tell you straight away what's "wrong" with you: You're straight.
You could only "satisfy" a gay man on his "grunt" level; you're not a kindred spirit, and that's what we are attracted to when we've matured.

You're not singing, we can't sense you.

I don't want you to satisfy me, or the reverse. And I wouldn't *want* you to be attracted to me. But would my straightness mean that we can't be friends ?

 

[arildno]

I don't want you to satisfy me, or the reverse. And I wouldn't *want* you to be attracted to me.

So then you ought to be relieved that the vast majority of adult gays wouldn't want you, either.

But would my straightness mean that we can't be friends ?

Not at all, as long as we have enough interests in common , say like literature, science, political views or sports.

 

[Curious3141]

So then you ought to be relieved that the vast majority of adult gays wouldn't want you, either.

Of course. As relieved as you must be that the vast majority of women (straight and gay) wouldn't want you.

Not at all, as long as we have enough interests in common , say like literature, science, political views or sports.

Of course.

 

[Smurf]

So then you ought to be relieved that the vast majority of adult gays wouldn't want you, either.

And the ones who do wouldn't care if you liked them back

 

[arildno]

Of course. As relieved as you must be that the vast majority of women (straight and gay) wouldn't want you.

Can't say that I've been much bothered with adoring females, but when it has happened, I've had to stifle a yawn or two, and resist the urge to go home and get a good night's sleep.

So yes, I am relieved, since I prefer to be present and sharp when I'm awake.

 

[PerennialII]

... interesting thread Arildno ! Have thought about issues such as this one perhaps way too equally & in a simplified sense, interesting to read your "next post" since there do appear to be degrees-of-freedom (like the realization, the following maturation...) which are difficult to grasp on this side of the fence.

 

[Moonbear]

Arildno, it seems you're making the same errors in generalization regarding "straights" as you are arguing is made about "gays."

As for the question of when do you become overtly aware of your sexual preferences? I would guess that most homosexual people would come to that self-awareness at about the same time as heterosexuals become aware of their own sexuality, some time around puberty. Children are generally not inclined to think about sexuality at all, and only as they begin to enter puberty and start feeling "strange feelings" for others, be it of the opposite sex or the same sex, do they begin to become aware of sexuality. Puberty is a tough time for everyone, though the lack of acceptance/intolerance of homosexuality in society must make it more difficult when the other young men are talking about "hot girls" (yes, at that age, they say girls ) and you're thinking about that "hot boy."

I wonder what you mean when you say that you wake up in the morning as gay as you are all day long. I mean, of course you are, just as I'm as heterosexual in the morning as I am all day long, but it's not an active thought every single morning or something that ought to run through one's mind all day long unless you see someone attractive that gets your thoughts onto such a topic. Unless you're trying to say that because you have a harder time being openly yourself (such as, you can't just off-handedly comment while out in a group, "Wow! He's HOT!" the way a heterosexual male might do when he sees an attractive woman) that it weighs upon your mind more often, or that it means you find yourself more comfortable in a community of other gay people where the culture is more open to you just being who you are. If so, it's unfortunate that you haven't met heterosexual friends with whom you can feel yourself, or for that matter, that you need to distinguish among who is heterosexual or homosexual in order to find friends who truly are friends in the sense of fully accepting you as the person you are. I assure you that among the heterosexual population, there are those of us who aren't going to blink or look at you cross-eyed if you want to comment on the hot men instead of the hot women (well, we might blink the first time if we've made fools of ourselves assuming you were straight and trying to point you toward women we thought you'd find attractive). And, of course, comments such as those from Dex and Lisa! here don't help you or anyone else who is homosexual feel comfortable being yourself in a crowd until you've confirmed their opinions of homosexuality.

And to Dex and Lisa!, there is NOTHING sick, disgusting, or unnatural about ANY form of sexuality (although it is has turned out to be rather disconcerting just how natural it is to the zookeepers who were hoping to breed penguins who found out all their male penguins are homosexual).

Arildno, gay men really should let women know they are gay very quickly; I really hate flirting with a really cute guy all night only to learn I've been wasting my time because he's gay. It happens way too often too (and no, I don't just assume someone is gay because he's not interested in my flirting, I'm talking about when they eventually just tell me so).

 

[cronxeh]

Hehe.. I think Dex has an insecure personality and Lisa is simply ignorant of certain things. There are a lot of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - and there are a lot of animals who have sex not to just reproduce but for pleasure - certain monkeys do it every other minute when they are bored, some do it anally - indiscriminate of the gender or method of delivery.

There are a few theories I have on the matter - ranging from scientific to pseudoscientific. For starters it could be a genetic predesposition to a certain pheromone in gay people and they will be drawn towards either gender - and those who have equal predesposition will be bisexual. In some there will be a strong repulsion towards one gender and affection towards another through other chemical traits that evade me at the moment - and they might want to become transgender and either homosexual or bisexual depending on the discrete combination of such traits

From a pseudoscience department I can think of a male being stuck in a female body, or a female being stuck in a male body. This is unlikely to explain the bisexual case, and generally won't be as acceptable as I'd like to admit it - yes, I am a lesbian woman stuck in a man's body, and no, that doesn't really ever work.

As far as this being sick or repulsive, consider that the next time you drop the soap in a male prison block - there are just a few things that give you peak release of endorphins and that is, unfortunately for your tight little buttcheeks, Dex, one of them

Shh.. Hey Dex.. Dont drop the soap, homie

 

[arildno]

Okay, I'll go ahead; I'll try to keep this as Victorian as possible.

First of all, however, I would like to draw attention to a perfectly common psychological distinction we make in our own lives, and that is the difference between our total mental content and our self-conception.
This is absolutely crucial to have clear before you, so I'll devote this post to this issue:
With our total mental content I mean just that:
Every fleeting sensation we experience, every tremor of feeling we have, along with all stray thoughts that hits our head from time to time.

But that doesn't mean that every such mental component is part of our own self-conception:
For example, we might feel uncharacteristically snappish one day and bite those around us, but we say things like "I'm just in a bad mood", "It's just a phase I'm in", that is:
We do not regard these mental elements part of your "true self", in a way it is something "other" than ourselves that occupies our mind.

Perhaps you occasionally get a stray political thought in your head which is totally different from "your" views, and you've no idea how that sort of un-you-ishness managed to sneak its way into your mind.

That is, our sense of ourselves, our self-conception, our identity sense does not claim everything which happens within our heads as "true" expressions of yourself.

 

[arildno]

Arildno, it seems you're making the same errors in generalization regarding "straights" as you are arguing is made about "gays."

Very probably. That's one of the major reasons I made this thread; I very much would like to be challenged to the point where I must discard the theory I'm about to propose.

As for the question of when do you become overtly aware of your sexual preferences? I would guess that most homosexual people would come to that self-awareness at about the same time as heterosexuals become aware of their own sexuality, some time around puberty. Children are generally not inclined to think about sexuality at all, and only as they begin to enter puberty and start feeling "strange feelings" for others, be it of the opposite sex or the same sex, do they begin to become aware of sexuality. Puberty is a tough time for everyone, though the lack of acceptance/intolerance of homosexuality in society must make it more difficult when the other young men are talking about "hot girls" (yes, at that age, they say girls ) and you're thinking about that "hot boy."

There's a subtle issue here, which I'll get back to.

I wonder what you mean when you say that you wake up in the morning as gay as you are all day long.

Quite so; I hope to be able to explain that.
Just in advance, I think you'll get vexated with me and say:
"But that has nothing to do with being "gay", arildno!"..

Arildno, gay men really should let women know they are gay very quickly; I really hate flirting with a really cute guy all night only to learn I've been wasting my time because he's gay. It happens way too often too (and no, I don't just assume someone is gay because he's not interested in my flirting, I'm talking about when they eventually just tell me so).

We are probably assuming that the girls pick up the clues of polite non-interest in the same way that other gays would pick them up.
On this issue, we really should make things crystal clear as fast as is "possible" , I fully agree with you.

 

[Moonbear]

There are a few theories I have on the matter - ranging from scientific to pseudoscientific. For starters it could be a genetic predesposition to a certain pheromone in gay people and they will be drawn towards either gender - and those who have equal predesposition will be bisexual. In some there will be a strong repulsion towards one gender and affection towards another through other chemical traits that evade me at the moment - and they might want to become transgender and either homosexual or bisexual depending on the discrete combination of such traits

From a pseudoscience department I can think of a male being stuck in a female body, or a female being stuck in a male body. This is unlikely to explain the bisexual case, and generally won't be as acceptable as I'd like to admit it - yes, I am a lesbian woman stuck in a man's body, and no, that doesn't really ever work.

You may have your science and pseudoscience issues mixed up a bit. I don't know of anything that would suggest pheromones have anything to do with sexuality. There are studies showing that sexually dimorphic areas of the brain are more similar between heterosexual females and homosexual males than between heterosexual and homosexual males or females. These are areas of the brain that are influenced by hormones, both during early development and at/following puberty, though which comes first, the brain development or hormonal environment, I don't know.

There are indeed transgendered people, which is NOT the same as being homosexual, who really do feel they are a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa. I recently met a person who is undergoing the transition from female to male. Because this person is still undergoing the process of transitioning, and is currently in the stage of hormonal treatments and not yet at the stage of any surgical alterations, I have trouble remembering to use the correct pronouns, but he prefers that we use male pronouns at this stage, though understands when we make a mistake and use a female pronoun. He's been using a masculinized version of a nickname for his first name for some time now, so it's just easier using his name until I get used to referring to him as "him" or "he." The hardest part of the transition for him is that right now, due to the hormonal treatments, he says he has all the emotional stability around women as a 14 year-old boy, which I found really fascinating to learn from a biological perspective of the influence of hormones in adulthood.

 

[Astronuc]

As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.

I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

Just curious, what's the motivation to present this? It's no big deal to me.

I agree - I am as utterly and totally me when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air - but then I am only intimate with my wife.

I have many gay/lesbian friends - for me that's quite natural. My best friend from high school 'came out' to me years ago. He was worried that I might reject him. No way! He's still one of my best friends - and I love him dearly! I was invited and I attended his 'wedding'. He is married to a very nice guy.

On occassion, I have been 'hit' on by gay men. No big deal. I politely decline. I also politely decline when I get hit on by women.

As for "realizing one is gay", I imagine that it has to do with realizing a sexual identity once one passes through puberty in a culture which is predominantly heterosexual. All of us are the product of a 'heterosexual' union (a mom and a dad) - biologically that is just the way it is. Before puberty (sexual maturity) the sexual identity (boy/girl) is more cultural. After puberty - things get a whole lot more complicated.

My best friend in pre-K and kindergarten was a girl. In first grade, I had a girl-friend (seriously!) - the first of many. Looking back I probably was friends with more girls than boys as I was growing up, and actually I would have to say I prefer the company of women to most men.

Anyway, take care arildno. I enjoy reading your posts on math!

 

[dextercioby]

Hehe.. I think Dex has an insecure personality and Lisa is simply ignorant of certain things. There are a lot of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - and there are a lot of animals who have sex not to just reproduce but for pleasure - certain monkeys do it every other minute when they are bored, some do it anally - indiscriminate of the gender or method of delivery.

There are a few theories I have on the matter - ranging from scientific to pseudoscientific. For starters it could be a genetic predesposition to a certain pheromone in gay people and they will be drawn towards either gender - and those who have equal predesposition will be bisexual. In some there will be a strong repulsion towards one gender and affection towards another through other chemical traits that evade me at the moment - and they might want to become transgender and either homosexual or bisexual depending on the discrete combination of such traits

From a pseudoscience department I can think of a male being stuck in a female body, or a female being stuck in a male body. This is unlikely to explain the bisexual case, and generally won't be as acceptable as I'd like to admit it - yes, I am a lesbian woman stuck in a man's body, and no, that doesn't really ever work.

As far as this being sick or repulsive, consider that the next time you drop the soap in a male prison block - there are just a few things that give you peak release of endorphins and that is, unfortunately for your tight little buttcheeks, Dex, one of them

Shh.. Hey Dex.. Dont drop the soap, homie

How do you know i have "tight little buttcheeks" ?? You can't see them in the photo i have here on PF, you might assume, i could still be a fata$$.

I have a sexy butt. It's not a secret anymore.





Daniel.

 

[Astronuc]

How do you know i have "tight little buttcheeks" ?? You can't see them in the photo i have here on PF, you might assume, i could still be a fata$$.

I have a sexy butt. It's not a secret anymore.



Daniel.

Hey Dex, you need to cut back on the caffeine, or is it Dexedrine?

 

[Moonbear]

Quite so; I hope to be able to explain that.
Just in advance, I think you'll get vexated with me and say:
"But that has nothing to do with being "gay", arildno!"..

Well, I guess that depends. If to you it feels like it has to do with your sexuality and feels somehow different than you suppose things feel to a heterosexual as they go about their day, then I can't argue over your own self-identity or self-perception. On the other hand, perhaps it is only through lack of communication among heterosexuals and homosexuals that you've come to believe your experiences are unique to homosexuals when they are really experienced by everyone. Or perhaps a woman can relate more than a man because we face similar obstacles in trying to get ahead when dealing with the "old boys' club," which sadly, does still exist.

We are probably assuming that the girls pick up the clues of polite non-interest in the same way that other gays would pick them up.
On this issue, we really should make things crystal clear as fast as is "possible" , I fully agree with you.

Well, it could be that "polite" non-interest still appears as more interest than the "rude" non-interest we get from an uninterested straight guy. Heck that polite non-interest appears as more interest than even an interested straight guy shows us right away. Or, sometimes it can be interest in the conversation and as a potential friend rather than a sexual interest, and that's okay, but it's just nice to know that a bit sooner so we don't walk away feeling foolish for flirting all night with a gay man.

 

[Moonbear]

Just curious, what's the motivation to present this?

Maybe he's decided it's time to stop confusing the men he's been hitting on/drooling over for some time around here who started wondering if he was female. The only thing I hadn't been sure of was whether he was gay or bisexual.

 

[Dr.Brain]

Two gay men can't produce kids.No Fun. Though gayism is helpful for population control

BJ

 

[Astronuc]

Two gay men can't produce kids.No Fun. Though gayism is helpful for population control

BJ

No, but a gay man (and his partner) could arrange for a woman to be artifically inseminated. Also, lesbian women can arrange for one of the male friends to donate sperm. It does happen.

Beyond that, gay and lesbian couples may adopt. There a plenty of children who need a loving family in which to live.

 

[arildno]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?

 

[Evo]

Hey Arildno, well that explains why you never requested a second set of my nekkid pictues.

(can you send the first set back, you know, the ones I glued on the yule goat)

I've always had male best friends and a number of them are gay. You're my first Norweed though.

 

[arildno]

Hey Arildno, well that explains why you never requested a second set of my nekkid pictues.

That's how a very dumb gay man like me thinks he gives sufficient clues of polite non-interest.

(What straight male wouldn't have nekkid pictures of Evo? )

 

[cronxeh]

pssht arildno.. umm could u click the forward button and umm.. send them over here.. thanks

 

[Moonbear]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?

I can't speak for how straight boys becoming men feel, but I never experienced any feeling of changing into someone else or that I was suddenly different than I was before going through puberty. It's all a gradual process anyway. I always had boys as friends, so there was no sudden shift from hanging around with only girls to suddenly hanging around with the boys too. Now, I've heard people say things like, "I'm not sure who I am," or "I need to find myself," but that's not part of the "heterosexual" experience, that's just that some people are confused in general, and it's not a common thing at all, more the exception. At least for women, or those I know, the only thing that really marked rather suddenly an entrance into adulthood was the beginning of menstruation, but that happens whether you're straight or gay, and then it quickly is realized to be a royal nuisance more than some "mystical" right of entry into womanhood as some of our mothers try to trick us into believing before it happens.

 

[Evo]

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

It wasn't any "change" so to speak it was just a gradual strengthening of sexual attraction to boys, that started well before puberty, I just didn't know what the feelings were because I was too young. Little girls 6-10 also get "crushes" on movie and rock stars, etc... It's just a natural progression of one's self, if that is what you mean.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?

I think it's a bit different for everyone.

When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

Can you clarify? When you say "gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self", are you saying you have no innate sense of sexual fellings that you feel are a normal part of you? (forgive me if I am dense, my head still hurts)

 

[arildno]

Now, how could a boy ever start thinking and believing that his own emotions is not his own emotions, his own self??
It is a total and complete self-contradiction, but there you have it:
That's how I went through puberty; what "I" was, was a-sexual, not-yet heterosexual, the girl hadn't come along yet.
If you had asked me if I was gay, I would have answered with complete sincerity that I was not.
If you had asked me if I got excited at the thought of other boys, I would have lied and said no, because that could make you mistakenly believe that I was gay, something I wasn't (I know, it is totally ludicrous).

That is, I systematically deceived myself, those emotions which at times was the dominating mental content in my were explained away by me in the most ridiculous manner.

However, those emotions I had, was crystal clear and roared within me: They were from day 1 unwaveringly homosexual; the sole source of "confusion" was my consistent refusal to integrate them in my self-conception. I simply wouldn't budge, and hear the call.

Effectively, I stood in my mind on the outside of a vast furnace chamber encased in glass, where the fires leapt and roared within excitedly and excitingly growing stronger and stronger.

To realize you're gay is as simple as it is momentous:
It is to open the door into that chamber and walk in, or that the glass wall simply shatters.

And here's the thing:
Once that happened, something else I had never thought should happen as well:
Suddenly I understood what a zombie-like existence I had led earlier, I was totally drained of emotion in my daily life, all my mental energies had been used to keep that glass wall complete, what was left outside the chamber was merely a hollow shell who led a vegetative existence.
My puberty was therefore never to be rushed along this or that emotional high or low (which it seems to have been for straights), it was extremely dull, and it was only when I was animated by those fires that I truly understood that what I had shut off was simply my life-force, my identity as a human being. My sense-perception widened, and the ardour I used in schoolwork was equally drawn from that source.

Thus, a gay boy matures, I think quite differently from the straights, who in the frightening, but exhilarating ride have to sort out who they are to become; in me, it was effectively two clearly distinguished halves developing on their own who finally choose to clasp hands and become one.

The "fires" which to me is "self-evidently" gay due to the curious development I've been through, is none other than my life-force, my identity which is with me all day.
It does not mean I think about men all the time, my life-force has just some particular colour, even though the expressions of that life-force is differs widely over the day.


For straights, who evidently have a personal identity at least as strong as mine, I think their road to self-identity is quite different.
They build themselves up, I think, "piece by piece", rather than the way in which I've described my own road.

 

[wolram]

I know nothing about the subject, that's why i am reading this, i did know
one chap who was openly gay, and he was certainly a nice person.

 

[arildno]

I'm just about finished now; the "theory" is effectively contained in posts 1,19,29,35.

 

[Astronuc]

It wasn't any "change" so to speak it was just a gradual strengthening of sexual attraction to boys, that started well before puberty, I just didn't know what the feelings were because I was too young. Little girls 6-10 also get "crushes" on movie and rock stars, etc... It's just a natural progression of one's self, if that is what you mean.

Yeah - it was a natural progression with me. I had 'girlfriends' way before puberty - starting when I was 6. I even had crushes on some my female teachers and movie stars. I don't think though that it was sexual - there were no strong sexual feelings - it was more an affinity.

Puberty came along and the whole thing changed - relationships with girls involved strong emotions both ways and consequently the relationships were more complicated and intense. But at that point, I was really starting to think about getting married.

Most other boys at the time (ages 12-13) were just 'discovering' girls, something which I had figured out 6-7 years earlier.

If you had asked me if I got excited at the thought of other boys, I would have lied and said no, because that could make you mistakenly believe that I was gay, something I wasn't (I know, it is totally ludicrous).

That is, I systematically deceived myself, those emotions which at times was the dominating mental content in my were explained away by me in the most ridiculous manner.

However, those emotions I had, was crystal clear and roared within me: They were from day 1 unwaveringly homosexual; the sole source of "confusion" was my consistent refusal to integrate them in my self-conception. I simply wouldn't budge, and hear the call.

Effectively, I stood in my mind on the outside of a vast furnace chamber encased in glass, where the fires leapt and roared within excitedly and excitingly growing stronger and stronger.

To realize you're gay is as simple as it is momentous:
It is to open the door into that chamber and walk in, or that the glass wall simply shatters.

And here's the thing:
Once that happened, something else I had never thought should happen as well:
Suddenly I understood what a zombie-like existence I had led earlier, I was totally drained of emotion in my daily life, all my mental energies had been used to keep that glass wall complete, what was left outside the chamber was merely a hollow shell who led a vegetative existence.

It is not ludicrous at all. This is exactly what a number of gay friends have described.

Why do many gay men go through this. Probably it's because that's the way they learn in the culture. Most (if not all) parents assume their children are heterosexual - since in most cases the parent are heterosexual. It does happen that some men realize they are gay well after marriage and kids, and unfortunately those couples often divorce.

I think socialization is the key factor. Boys and girls are socialized according to cultural stereotypes.

At least that is my experience.

Teenage years can very difficult for gay and lesbian youth - because many in the larger culture disapprove of homosexuality.

 

[Evo]

Now, how could a boy ever start thinking and believing that his own emotions is not his own emotions, his own self??
It is a total and complete self-contradiction, but there you have it:
That's how I went through puberty; what "I" was, was a-sexual, not-yet heterosexual, the girl hadn't come along yet.
If you had asked me if I was gay, I would have answered with complete sincerity that I was not.
If you had asked me if I got excited at the thought of other boys, I would have lied and said no, because that could make you mistakenly believe that I was gay, something I wasn't (I know, it is totally ludicrous).

That is, I systematically deceived myself, those emotions which at times was the dominating mental content in my were explained away by me in the most ridiculous manner.

I think I know what you're saying. You were raised as a "male" and normal expectations would be that you would grow up to sexually desire women. When that didn't happen for you, you dealt with your "normal" gay feelings by separating them from yourself because it didn't fit the image of what you had been taught would happen. I can see the confusion and the need to somehow deal with it.

However, those emotions I had, was crystal clear and roared within me: They were from day 1 unwaveringly homosexual; the sole source of "confusion" was my consistent refusal to integrate them in my self-conception. I simply wouldn't budge, and hear the call.

This is why I think early exposure (on tv for example) of gays leading normal lives and having normal feelings can help teenagers that are gay realize that they don't have to separate their real feelings, that there is nothing wrong with how they feel. That they are normal.

And here's the thing:
Once that happened, something else I had never thought should happen as well:
Suddenly I understood what a zombie-like existence I had led earlier, I was totally drained of emotion in my daily life, all my mental energies had been used to keep that glass wall complete, what was left outside the chamber was merely a hollow shell who led a vegetative existence.
My puberty was therefore never to be rushed along this or that emotional high or low (which it seems to have been for straights), it was extremely dull, and it was only when I was animated by those fires that I truly understood that what I had shut off was simply my life-force, my identity as a human being. My sense-perception widened, and the ardour I used in schoolwork was equally drawn from that source.

Thus, a gay boy matures, I think quite differently from the straights, who in the frightening, but exhilarating ride have to sort out who they are to become; in me, it was effectively two clearly distinguished halves developing on their own who finally choose to clasp hands and become one.

The "fires" which to me is "self-evidently" gay due to the curious development I've been through, is none other than my life-force, my identity which is with me all day.
It does not mean I think about men all the time, my life-force has just some particular colour, even though the expressions of that life-force is differs widely over the day.

Do you feel you gained more by going through the mental turmoil, or would it have been better to have known and accepted who you were sooner? Or is it impossible, now you've gone through this, to even look back and guess in hindsight?

For straights, who evidently have a personal identity at least as strong as mine, I think their road to self-identity is quite different.
They build themselves up, I think, "piece by piece", rather than the way in which I've described my own road.

Yes, it's a much simpler path when you are just meeting expectations already set for you.

 

[arildno]

I quite agree, Astronuc; but just one thing here:

Let's take it as a given that we have a 98/02 distribution of straights/gays.

My contention is that no matter how supportive and gay-friendly a society becomes, the gay child will tend in the direction I described as my own way, whereas the straight will tend the other way.

I think that a major component in any child's psychology is the fear of being abondoned, not liked; and hence, however differently a child feels himself to be, there is a strong wish in him "to be like the others" (reducing chances of abandonment).
But that could well mean that a child who already as say 4-5 years old feels "different" in some indescribable, not necessarily bad way has a strong urge to be like the others, and when puberty arrives and emotions arrives which is known by him to be very different from those of most of his friends, then a practically automatic panic reaction sets in: I do NOT want to be THAT different, that is NOT me at all.
I.e, a gay child will spiral off in the direction I did, with due respect to individual differences and temperaments, of course.

 

[Astronuc]

I think that a major component in any child's psychology is the fear of being abondoned, not liked; and hence, however differently a child feels himself to be, there is a strong wish in him "to be like the others" (reducing chances of abandonment).

But that could well mean that a child who already as say 4-5 years old feels "different" in some indescribable, not necessarily bad way has a strong urge to be like the others, and when puberty arrives and emotions arrives which is known by him to be very different from those of most of his friends, then a practically automatic panic reaction sets in: I do NOT want to be THAT different, that is NOT me at all.

I.e, a gay child will spiral off in the direction I did, with due respect to individual differences and temperaments, of course.

I quite agree. It is difficult to project how a 'gay-friendly' society would affect how gay/lesbian children develop, because we don't live in such a society.

The church and religious denomination with which I am affiliated does however work toward that goal.

I think I know what you're saying. You were raised as a "male" and normal expectations would be that you would grow up to sexually desire women. When that didn't happen for you, you dealt with your "normal" gay feelings by separating them from yourself because it didn't fit the image of what you had been taught would happen.

I agree with Evo's point. Children are raised with certain expectations - especially based upon what they obseve their mom and dad, grandparents and other family members. Boys seem naturally to expect to be like their father, and girls seem naturally to expect to be like their mother. The 'natural' may be somewhat culturally arbitrary. To be different to what is expected of one by others can be very stressful.

 

[arildno]

Now, I didn't start this thread in order to tell a tale of woe and misery; rather, Iwas interested in hearing if there are psychological experiences by which straights and gays differ in their maturement, and hence, that we quite possibly might have rather divergent mentalities as adults.

Just one thing about "emotional turmoil":
It certainly didn't feel like I was going through an emotional turmoil which it was so evident to me that the others went through.
I felt my old self really, it was dull, the only puzzling aspect was all that mental content in me which I didn't think of as myself, yet which was deeply attractive nonetheless.
Thus, to me it was a revelation that I was gay;
I fell head-long in love more strongly than ever before, and couldn't understand how divine perfection could sit beside me in this totally ordinary class-room.
That is, effectively, I think my own emotions had matured a lot further before I embraced them than what is the case with the straights around me.

(they fell in love constantly, broke up after a day and would never ever speak to that horrible person again, and Mum was just awful today and so on..).

At the time I did embrace myself fully, I was 16, the hormones had settled somewhat relative to the period 12-14.

 

[Clausius2]

I cannot believe how the hell a man doesn't like women. Women are the sweetest thing on the world, no matter they result a bit expensive by the way...

Anyway, I sincerely belong to the group of people who thinks this behavior is not as "natural" as the relationship between a man and a woman. I do thing nature designed us and every alive being to reproduce and evolute its proper specie. Two men never could do that. If every men were gays, then our specie will disappear soon. Besides it, accepting the gay behavior as a natural one implies we are accepting that part of our specie is unable to keep on reproducing. I do know this thinking could sound a bit primitive, but it's an scientific point of view. No matter we are too many people on Earth, each human being was primarily designed to mantain the specie and reproduce. From a biological point of view, what I have just mentioned is an essential characteristic of human beings.

I respect gays, and I don't think it's fair to discriminate them only by sexual issues. But I will never believe those who claim that two men having sex is as natural as a man and a woman doing so, understanding the word "natural" on
the broadest meaning. Also, there are two living ways for a gay. One is being discrete and behaving as an heterosexual, this kind of homosexual guys are elegant. The other one is going screaming over there the homosexual condition, and getting dressed ridicully as woman as someones make in parties and so. This last behavior degradates any gay fight against discrimination, because on this way all people laughs at them. If gay people want to fight for their rights, they must look like serious people, and not being over there dressed up in costumes.

By the way, if you're a gay and feel discriminated, please come to Spain. Zapatero is hearing the claims of gays. Spain has been the third? country who has approved the gay marriage. Unfortunately, Zapatero doesn't hear to the victims of terrorism, he doesn't hear to Catholics too, and he doesn't hear to normal workers. But you should know this kind of """"social advances"""" such as allowing gay marriage has the result of more votes in next elections. They are "effective measures".

 

[arildno]

Do you feel you gained more by going through the mental turmoil, or would it have been better to have known and accepted who you were sooner? Or is it impossible, now you've gone through this, to even look back and guess in hindsight?

I don't really know.
I never really felt ashamed of having those puzzling and deeply exciting fantasies (which wasn't me); I had made some truly ludicrous ways of explaining them away which actually made me feel smug in my supposedly pre-heterosexual life.

I didn't realize how deeply unhappy I'd been before I realized I was gay.
I thought I was quite happy, actually.

Yes, it's a much simpler path when you are just meeting expectations already set for you.

I'm not too sure it was that simpler for you; it seemed to me that you all went through these heart-wrenching episodes almost every day.
It actually felt like a "relief" to remain the dull, old, not-yet sexual me.

 

[arildno]

Clausius2:
To define the "meaning" of your own sexuality at the basis on what might happen two or three times in your life (i.e actually procreate) is rather wrong.
the "meaning" of your sexuality is what you in general get out of it in your daily life.

 

[Astronuc]

Now, I didn't start this thread in order to tell a tale of woe and misery; rather, Iwas interested in hearing if there are psychological experiences by which straights and gays differ in their maturement, and hence, that we quite possibly might have rather divergent mentalities as adults.

I didn't see a tale of woe and misery as the reason for the thread. I just thought that there was something significant going on.

I think 'gays' and 'straights' do develop differently, mostly for reasons already discussed. However, I do not think this necessarily leads to "divergent mentalities as adults." It might, but not necessarily. Afterall, everyone develops differently.

As for turmoil - that was my teenage years. I was at odds with the 'world' and I still am, and most likely will always be. I was at odds with my parents in some cases, with the religion in which I was raised, with every political system that exists and ever existed, and with the culture in which I live in general.

I have never met any authority that didn't need to be challenged. That said, I have quite a few people in positions of authority who I deeply respect. They are often few and far between though. I also respect Greg, Warren, and the Supermentors who do a very good job of keeping PF running relatively smoothly!

I rage against the injustice, hypocrisy, inequality and stupidity that I see. But that's me, and it makes for an interesting life.

 

[Moonbear]

Now, I didn't start this thread in order to tell a tale of woe and misery; rather, Iwas interested in hearing if there are psychological experiences by which straights and gays differ in their maturement, and hence, that we quite possibly might have rather divergent mentalities as adults.

Just one thing about "emotional turmoil":
It certainly didn't feel like I was going through an emotional turmoil which it was so evident to me that the others went through.
I felt my old self really, it was dull, the only puzzling aspect was all that mental content in me which I didn't think of as myself, yet which was deeply attractive nonetheless.
Thus, to me it was a revelation that I was gay;
I fell head-long in love more strongly than ever before, and couldn't understand how divine perfection could sit beside me in this totally ordinary class-room.
That is, effectively, I think my own emotions had matured a lot further before I embraced them than what is the case with the straights around me.

(they fell in love constantly, broke up after a day and would never ever speak to that horrible person again, and Mum was just awful today and so on..).

At the time I did embrace myself fully, I was 16, the hormones had settled somewhat relative to the period 12-14.

Well, one of the trickier parts of this is that there is a lot of variation in age of puberty. Even among just straights, the age at which you enter puberty relative to your peers is going to affect your outlook on relationships. If someone enters puberty a bit later, after watching all their friends act all goofy with the emotional ups and downs of lust and attraction, they may be mature in going through that themselves, or, the first person going through puberty may be the one seemingly wiser in giving good advice to their peers who go through puberty later because they've sorted out all those feelings and had their hormones stabilize a bit sooner.

But, I see what you mean now about not feeling different. You somehow closed your emotions up, so didn't go through the emotional ups and downs, you just went through puberty in more of a detached emotional state than those boys who are jumping out of trees to "impress" the girls one moment and feeling down and mopey when they get ignored or called stupid the next.

What always puzzled me was the situation of the guy one of my friends dated in high school. He insisted he was straight, and dated several of the girls in high school, but unlike other boys, he seemed to prefer going shopping with them, or just holding hands. To the girls he was dating, he was the "perfect gentleman." I know I and a few others suspected he was gay from the day we met him, just something seemed "different" about him and the way he interacted socially, yet, he was dating the girls. Then in the summer before his senior year, he finally came to realize he was gay and came out in his senior year. So, some of your description here has helped finally explain what has puzzled me for a very long time, which was that I didn't understand how many of the rest of us were aware or suspected that he was gay but he himself wouldn't admit it and truly didn't seem to believe it. I think some of his ex-girlfriends were shocked by the news, but other than that, most of us just kind of had this reaction like, "How did you not know this before," or, "Why did you pretend to be straight when we asked if you were gay?" So, I'm actually really glad you finally explained that in a way that makes sense. I had always thought people just didn't admit it to others for fear of rejection, not that they didn't even admit it to themselves and were somehow in denial about it, not just to others, but even to themself.

 

[Clausius2]

Clausius2:
To define the "meaning" of your own sexuality at the basis on what might happen two or three times in your life (i.e actually procreate) is rather wrong.
the "meaning" of your sexuality is what you in general get out of it in your daily life.

I don't understand your point, and I don't understand why you adopted the word "meaning". Anyway, a sexual event between a man and a woman hasn't got the result of procreating every time. But that's because we use anticonceptive methods. It doesn't imply that the proper fact of such sexual moment is not to procreate. It's to procreate indeed, but voluntarily we don't want to do that. Nature didn't create sex to spend a great moment of pleasure only, the main mission of sex is to procreate. But we usually only chose one part of the movie, which is the pleasure moment it implies.

I prefer to talk you in a sincere way rather than saying politically correct stupidities which sound very good from a politician, but not from me.

 

[Astronuc]

Anyway, a sexual event between a man and a woman hasn't got the result of procreating every time. But that's because we use anticonceptive methods. It doesn't imply that the proper fact of such sexual moment is not to procreate. It's to procreate indeed, but voluntarily we don't want to do that. Nature didn't create sex to spend a great moment of pleasure only, the main mission of sex is to procreate. But we usually only chose one part of the movie, which is the pleasure moment it implies.

Being married as I am, most of the time it is for fun. My wife and I have had two children. She is now beyond child-bearing, so now sex is strictly for fun.

 

[Moonbear]

Anyway, I sincerely belong to the group of people who thinks this behavior is not as "natural" as the relationship between a man and a woman. I do thing nature designed us and every alive being to reproduce and evolute its proper specie. Two men never could do that. If every men were gays, then our specie will disappear soon. Besides it, accepting the gay behavior as a natural one implies we are accepting that part of our specie is unable to keep on reproducing. I do know this thinking could sound a bit primitive, but it's an scientific point of view. No matter we are too many people on Earth, each human being was primarily designed to mantain the specie and reproduce. From a biological point of view, what I have just mentioned is an essential characteristic of human beings.

Actually, that's not a very good "biological" point of view. From a biological point of view, one recognizes that non-reproducing individuals in a social species can be highly advantageous. Consider colonies of ants. Only one female reproduces, the queen, the rest are workers that help care for the eggs and larvae and ensure the best chance of survival of those offspring. The same in bee colonies. The same occurs with other social mammals where one dominant female bears the litters and the other females and subdominant males are more like "aunts" and "uncles" that can provide a group effort in raising offspring rather than everyone having to manage to take care of their own. Considering how much effort and energy must be put into raising a human child from infancy to independent adulthood, having members of our society who are non-reproductive yet still feel a desire to nurture those young is beneficial. One doesn't even need to be gay to be non-reproductive. I'm quite straight, and love being around children, but if I never reproduce, I'll be quite content to lavish my nephew with all my love, or perhaps to adopt a child that a heterosexual couple produced yet was not sufficiently fit to raise.

 

[Clausius2]

Being married as I am, most of the time it is for fun. My wife and I have had two children. She is now beyond child-bearing, so now sex is strictly for fun.

Agreed. But if we want to speak about the naturality of a sexual event between two men, we must leave what we usually do and make scientific judgements. And the fact that nature designed the sexual act to procreate is one of them, despites we nowadays don't use it for that. But we have been using it for procreating during the last 100.000 years.

 

[Moonbear]

Nature didn't create sex to spend a great moment of pleasure only, the main mission of sex is to procreate.

If that was the case, then it makes little sense that women are sexually receptive at all times during their menstrual cycle. It seems there may be more reason for sex in humans, such as social bonding, than just procreation, or else we'd have as high of selection for an overt estrus at the time of ovulation, and only at the time of ovulation, as other mammalian species exhibit. Or, for that matter, when a woman is already pregnant, she will still have sexual desire. This would make no sense if the only purpose was procreation as she has already successfully accomplished that and cannot produce any additional children until the one gestating is born.

 

[Moonbear]

Agreed. But if we want to speak about the naturality of a sexual event between two men, we must leave what we usually do and make scientific judgements. And the fact that nature designed the sexual act to procreate is one of them, despites we nowadays don't use it for that. But we have been using it for procreating during the last 100.000 years.

Just because that is ONE function of sexual behavior, it doesn't mean it is the ONLY function.