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Smacks head your right copied the wrong one grrr. Ill restore it after I get some ice for the swelling.
As expansion is homogeneous and isotropic then there is no difference in expansion at one location or another. In the LambdaCDM model expansion is attributed to the cosmological constant.
thus gravity and expansion contribute to Doppler redshift.
It is precisely analogous to a separation speed. If, in one frame of reference, one object is moving East at .9c, and another West at .9c, they are separating by 1.8c. This is their recession velocity. Their relative velocity remains less than c. In cosmology, two things change from this simple picture: expansion can cause separation speeds much greater even than 2c; and relative velocity is not unique, but no matter what path it is compared along, it is always less than c, as expected.
Naty1 said:It is this approximation of homogeneity and isotropism that leads to a cosmological constant.
This is wrong in GR. Since relative motion is not unique, for Doppler in curved spacetime you must specifically compare (parallel transport) along the light path. Gravity (curvature) affect the light path and how it carries the emitter motion (4 velocity). Doppler in GR is a single combined phenomenon influenced by motion and curvature. Only in special cases (lots of symmetry) can you factor out the motion effect from the curvature effect, but both clearly contribute.Naty1 said:This is under 'Doppler Redshift'...
drop 'gravity'...gravity has nothing to do with the redshift of relative motion...
Naty1 said:This is a nice section one does not usually see in explanations:
It might be worthwhile mentioning that separation distance is calculated not directly observed...and perhaps provide a 'radar observation' reading...of less than 'c' for your example.
Also, I don't see how cosmology 'changes' separation speeds...maybe just explain that relative velocity along a given path is less than c while recession speeds may not be.
your call...
Mordred said:I think that should be a sufficient coverage on Cosmic distance ladder. Article looks good now,
I heard a request for an Office Assistant. Your request has been answered...PAllen said:Very nice! I hope a few more people proof read it for polishing, but it looks good enough to me.
Mordred said:EXPANSION AND REDSHIFT
One common Question posters often ask is " What is outside our Universe, this question has no meaning as without space or time you have nonexistence. Also their is no clear consensus on, if the Universe is Finite or Infinite. " When an object is said to leave our universe" we mean that the object has crossed the observable universe or rather that it is redshifted to the point of non detectable.
Jonathan Scott said:Come on, surely you can do better than this garbled mess! For a start "their is" should be "there is" and "consensus" only has one c (like "consent"), and the double quotes seem to be randomly scattered.
I appreciate your attempts, but I don't think this is anywhere near up to the appropriate quality for an FAQ item so far.
DennisN said:I heard a request for an Office Assistant. Your request has been answered...I have read the entire text and I will provide my suggestions below (mostly formal and very little science), from top to bottom:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Redshift -> redshift
Dopplershift -> Doppler shift
Why is the CMB, so vital in cosmology ? (remove comma)
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There are many words that currently are capitalized, but should not be capitalized, unless they are at the start of a sentence.
These are:
Expansion, Homogeneous, Isotropic, Billion, Question, Finite, Infinite, Observable, Redshift, Recession Velocity, Gravity, Galaxy clusters, False vacuum, "Nothing", Quantum tunnel, "Universe from Nothing", "Ultimate free lunch", "Runaway expansion", Parallax, Moving Cluster Parallax
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further suggestions:
The Observable universe from Earth is 46 Billion light years (ambiguous, use e.g. "The radius of the observable universe is...")
---
"So how do we see farther than 13.772 billion years, the answer lies in expansion. As light is traveling towards us, spacetime has expanded."
This is a question without a question mark, split to e.g.
"So how do we see farther than 13.772 billion years? The answer lies in expansion; as light is traveling towards us, spacetime has expanded."
---
"What is outside our Universe, this question has no meaning as without space or time you have nonexistence."
A question without question mark, split to e.g.
"What is outside our Universe? This question..."
---
concensus -> consensus
non detectable->nondetectable
uniformaly->uniformly
"CMB photons were emitted at about 3000 Kelvin and are now 2.73 Kelvin blackbody radiation."
This is repeated twice. CMB is important, but not that important.
"In all cases of Doppler" - insert "shift", I think.
"Red/Blue shifted"-> "red- or blueshifted"
"red/blue end of the spectrum. As shown by the formula below."
-> "red or blue end of the spectrum, as shown by the formula below."
"reciever"->"receiver" (twice)
"relativistic doppler formula"->"relativistic Doppler formula"
"Tansverse Doppler shift"->"transverse Doppler shift"
Insert punctuation: "Doppler shift is used to describe redshift due to inertial velocity. One example..."
"Red Shifted"->"redshifted"
"RedShift"->"redshift"
"Hubbles Law"->"Hubble's Law" (twice)
"GR"->"general relativity" (it's a newbie FAQ, remember)
"East"->"east", "West"->"west"
"Milky way"->"Milky Way"
"distance dependant"-> e.g. "depending on distance"
"Cosmological Constant"->"The cosmological constant"
"dark energy per M3"->"dark energy per m3"
"small amount per M3"->"small amount per m3"
"Heisenburg uncertainty principle"->"Heisenberg uncertainty principle"
"One means of relating to expansion is with the use of the a grid of squares."
I suggest perhaps
"One way to describe expansion is to use a square grid."
"their is no clear concensus"->"there is no consensus"
"blackhole singularity"->"black hole singularity"
"describes Doppler between static emitter"
->"describes Doppler shift between a static emitter"
"red shift"->"redshift" (multiple)
"blue shift"->"blueshift"
"non rotating"->"nonrotating"
"Cosmic Distance ladder"->"Cosmic distance ladder"
"method's"->"methods"
"the sun"->"The Sun" (twice)
"for The AU unit. This Unit"->"for the AU unit. This unit"
"The Sun at right angle"->"The Sun at a right angle"
"the Parsec"->"the parsec"
"Standard Candles"->"Standard candles"
"In particular a Stellar objects Luminousity or brightness"
->
"In particular a stellar object's luminosity or brightness"
Luminousity -> luminosity (multiple)
"Novae"->"novae", "Supernova"->"supernova", "Galaxy clusters"->"galaxy clusters".
From your friendly office assistant, over and out.![]()
This is wrong in GR. ... for Doppler in curved spacetime you must specifically compare (parallel transport) along the light path. Gravity (curvature) affect the light path and how it carries the emitter motion (4 velocity). ...
Mordred said:I never claimed the article is complete. Right now were in the proofing stage. That includes better ways to express the ideas presented in the article. In an article this size its easy to miss mistakes, hence multiple eyes
Jonathan Scott said:For an FAQ you need to be really straightforward and uncontroversial. It's difficult. I hope others have time to help you sort it out.
Have you tried calculating the redshift (to first order) within a rapidly spinning system such as a space station (a) as a Special Relativity velocity effect and (b) as due to the effective "gravitational potential" experienced within the spinning system because of the centripetal acceleration? I've always felt that's particularly educational.
"So how do we see farther than 13.772 billion years?"
One accurate answer in regards to cosmology is nonexistent.
That expansion is homogeneous and isotropic. In other words, there is no preferred location (Homogeneous) and no preferred direction (Isotropic). Keep in mind these terms describe the universe on large scales.
.Naty1 said:A few minor comments...You may want to note:
should be 13.7 billion LIGHT years.
H0 is the Hubble constant currently. .
.Naty1 said:Something is wrong here:
One accurate answer in regards to cosmology is nonexistent.
.
.Naty1 said:This seems a bit convoluted: 'homogeneous and isotropic' are assumptions of space...as you correctly described much earlier. Once such assumptions are made so that we can simplify cosmological model calculations, the uniform expansion of space follows. I am not sure if anyone knows that the actual expansion of space is actually uniform...maybe somebody will comment...
I'd suggest simply saying the uniform expansion of space follows from the assumptions that space is uniform...homogeneous and isotropic.
I'm open to suggestions on better descriptives for the actual homogeneous and isotropic nature of expansion in non gravitationally bound regions.
Naty1 said:It's space that is described this way, not expansion. Such a description of space leads to the uniform expansion...or uniform distance increases, if you prefer...
see what others may comment...if anything...
Naty1 said:regarding the Hubble parameter:
The Hubble “constant” is a constant only in space, not in time,
the subscript ‘0’ indicates the value of the Hubble constant today and
the Hubble parameter is thought to be decreasing with time.
I have trouble extracting any of those concepts from the current description you posted.
/QUOTE]
that descriptive is better than the one I used.
Naty1 said:It's space that is described this way, not expansion. Such a description of space leads to the uniform expansion...or uniform distance increases, if you prefer...
see what others may comment...if anything...
This descriptive sounds good, however is it accurate ? consider the cause of expansion, as vacuum energy as described in the inflationary model. There is no evidence of variations in the vacuum energy. The vacuum energy is also homogenous and isotropic. As this energy is constant, homogenous and isotropic and the rate of expansion requires the cosmological constant. That would mean expansion is also homogenous and isotropic, the difference in expansion rates is a sum of energy densities. However the vacuum energy density in all areas in space remain the same. So in these terms, outside of gravitationally bound regions describing the 100Mpc takes that into consideration.
I'm willing to go either way on the two decriptives but it seems to me that expansion can be accurately described as homogenous and isotropic on the right scales.
Take for example the De-Sitter universe. this is a universe where matter is removed.
the rate of expansion is defined as h\propto\sqrtλ
this shows that its homogenous and isotropic.
I will use your Hubble constant descriptive its more accurate than what I have.
In principle, you could have space that is (at any cosmological time slice) neither homogenous nor isotropic, yet experiences homogenous and isotropic expansion (preserving the spatial asymmetries).
The only real connection I see is that if space retains these symmetries, then the expansion must have them.
Naty1 said:Pallen:
now THAT would be an interesting cosmological model. [LOL]
If there is a mainstream model that does not assume symmetrical space and mass/energy, I have not yet come across it.
The part about the universe retaining assymetries I have read about once but can't recall where.
Mordred said:I've been considering if I should add critical density and space-time geometry to the article. In one camp the FAQ is already large. In the other it would encourage more ppl to use it as a reference.
PAllen said:I lean towards leaving it out. Another FAQ could be created on critical density, open/closed geometry, flat or not, etc.
Supporting this further, is that before finalizing this FAQ, another step is collecting references. Almost all FAQ in PF provide references to more detailed treatment of the issues. As this one is big, I would see a minimum of six, possibly 10 references being required.
Mordred said:Yeah I agree on leaving that out, the references in regards to the FAQ on PF is something I wasn't aware of. Should be easy enough to find some decent articles for reference.
I'll look around for some decent articles, and try to find sites that will stay so that the links don't become broken or unusable.
Here is a good visualization from NASA done as a youtube vid
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sc0_f...=sc0_f3e_qwE
Despite (and perhaps in part because of) its ubiquity,
the concept of expanding space has often been articulated
poorly and formulated in contradictory ways.
That addressing this issue is important must be placed
beyond doubt, as the phrase ‘expansion of space’ is
in such a wide use—from technical papers, through to
textbooks and material intended for school students or
the general public—that it is no exaggeration to label
it the most prominent feature of Big Bang cosmologies.
In this paper, we have shown how a consistent description
of cosmological dynamics emerges from the idea
that the expansion of space is neither more nor less
than the increase over time of the distance between
observers at rest with respect to the cosmic fluid.