Relating Entropy and the 2nd law

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter guyvsdcsniper
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    2nd law Entropy Law
Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the relationship between the 2nd law of thermodynamics and entropy, emphasizing that the 2nd law can be succinctly stated as "A cooler object never heats a hotter object." The participant highlights that entropy is a state variable that can be used to derive other thermodynamic properties, and its change is determined by heat flow and entropy generation within a closed system. Key concepts include the Clausius inequality, which mathematically represents the 2nd law, and the distinction between reversible and irreversible processes in determining entropy changes.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics
  • Familiarity with the concept of entropy as a state variable
  • Knowledge of heat transfer principles
  • Basic grasp of reversible and irreversible processes in thermodynamics
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the Clausius inequality and its implications in thermodynamics
  • Learn about statistical mechanics and its role in defining entropy
  • Explore the concept of thermal equilibrium and its significance in entropy calculations
  • Investigate the methods for calculating entropy changes in irreversible processes
USEFUL FOR

Students of thermodynamics, educators teaching thermodynamic principles, and professionals in engineering fields focusing on heat transfer and energy systems will benefit from this discussion.

guyvsdcsniper
Messages
264
Reaction score
37
So I am midway through my Thermodynamics course in college and still feel a bit unsure about the 2nd law and entropy.

I've learned that the 2nd law was states 3 different ways, and by contrapositive proofs we can determine they are all equivalent. What we end up getting for the 2nd law is basically, "A cooler object never heats a hotter object". Thats as simple as I believe I could state it with where I am at in my course at the moment.

Then I learned about entropy, which is a bit hard to grasp intuitively. My professor told me we can't truly define entropy until we get to Statistical Mechanics. I may butcher his words a bit, but he stated for now we can just think of entropy as a state variable, and we can use it to find other variables. We worked through an example where a heat reservoir and a Joule apparatus were connected and we found only the reservoir had an increase of entropy equal to mgh/T. I believe he also said for now we can think of it as a transfer of thermal energy. Again I may be butchering his words and he probably stated this a lot more precisely.

Again I am probably messing up somethings my professor said but I believe theyre pretty close and I am only halfway through my Thermo course.

So how do the 2nd law and entropy relate? When you ask someone what's the 2nd law of thermodynamics, they say Entropy. But according to Clausius its "A cooler object never heats a hotter object".
 
Science news on Phys.org
Check out this link to my Physics Forums Insight Article on Entropy and the 2nd law:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/understanding-entropy-2nd-law-thermodynamics/

Also consider these basics:

1. Just like internal energy U, entropy S is a physical (state) property of the material(s) comprising a system at thermodynamic equilibrium, and the entropy change between two thermodynamics equilibrium states of a system depends only on the two end states (and not on any specific process path between the two end states).

2. For a closed system, there are only two ways that the entropy of the system can change:

(a) by heat flow across the system boundary with its surroundings at the temperature present at the boundary##T_B##; this is equal to the integral from the initial state to the final state of ##dQ/T_B## along whatever path is taken between the two end states.

(b) by entropy generation within the system as a result of irreversibility. The mechanisms for entropy generation within a system experiencing an irreversible process include (a) heat conduction with finite temperature gradient, (b) viscous dissipation of mechanical energy to internal energy resulting from finite velocity gradients within the system, and (c) molecular diffusion with finite concentration gradients.

3. Contribution (a) is present both for reversible and irreversible paths. Contribution (b) is positive for irreversible paths and approaches zero for reversible paths. For any arbitrary path between the two end states, the two contributions add linearly: $$\Delta S=\int{\frac{dQ}{T_B}}+\sigma$$where ##\sigma## is the amount of entropy generated within the system as a results of irreversibility. This is the Clausius inequality in equation form, and constitutes a mathematical statement of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is compatible with all "word statements" of the 2nd law.

4. Determining the amount of entropy generation along an irreversible path is very complicated so, to determine the entropy change for a system between any initial and final thermodynamic equilibrium states, we are forced to choose only from the set of possible paths that are reversible in applying our equation (i.e., paths for which ##\sigma## is zero). The reversible path we choose does not have to bear any resemblance to the actual path for the process of interest. All reversible paths with give the same result, and will also provide the entropy change for any of the irreversible paths.

5. One can determine the change in entropy for a closed system experiencing any process, provided that application of the 1st law of thermodynamics is sufficient to establish the final thermodynamic equilibrium state.

Questions?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: BvU
quittingthecult said:
"A cooler object never heats a hotter object".
"A cooler object never spontaneously heats a hotter object".
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 100 ·
4
Replies
100
Views
8K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K