Complaint Requirements for Posting Engineering Inventions Online

[drizzle]

I have an idea, exclusively for PF!
Is it possible to add a set of options as a new feature, where one can choose the level of the discussion/question, and let it shows next to the thread's title? If so, members would only see the level of the matter in question and decide whether they want to respond/help/whatever to it or ignore it without wasting their time reading. And I think it’s better than creating new sub-forums in PF, what do you think?

 

[Brian_C]

There are a lot of crackpots on this forum, not just the engineering sections. It's almost as bad as Usenet.

 

[lisab]

There are a lot of crackpots on this forum, not just the engineering sections. It's almost as bad as Usenet.

The mentors have a tough job. They can't be everywhere, so if you read a post that you believe isn't up to PF standards, please report it.

 

[Cyrus]

Part of the template I'm suggesting would list "What answers have you sought and found?" as a required step.

I think I realized two things

-a) design engineering sub-forum to segregate all these threads out of the main engineering sections

-b) a lot of faux engineers come up with ideas and just post it, without doing any kind of background into the fundamentals of what they are doing or why they are doing it. I think that is a very important part of the process that is missing.

 

[russ_watters]

There are a lot of crackpots on this forum, not just the engineering sections. It's almost as bad as Usenet.

You should have seen it before we changed the rules to disallow crackpottery about 4 years ago!

 

[DnD Addict]

You should have seen it before we changed the rules to disallow crackpottery about 4 years ago!

How long has PF been around?

 

[russ_watters]

We haven't yet come up with an official response to this, but I suspect what we will end up doing is adding a sticky to the appropriate forums that contains elements of the OP. Something entitled "Read this before posting your new invention".

The direction the discussion in the mentor's forum is leaning is that there is no problem with the rules, but a sticky to reference would help improve the posting quality and act as a reference to refer "look at my new invention!" posters to rather than having to explain from scratch what they should be doing every time we see a new thread.

 

[russ_watters]

How long has PF been around?

I thought we used to have a sticky with our history, but it is about 7 years ago that the current form solidified (addition of other related fields and with them additional mentors such as myself), with the exception of the removal of our crackpot-infested "theory development" forum, which happened a few years later.

 

[tchuck]

For what it's worth, I just joined this forum and have an opinion on this subject.

I would much rather read the opinion of a creative individual with a HS diploma than an arrogant, jaded, elitist with an engineering degree. I have worked in engineering long enough to know the difference between a good engineer and a jerk with a degree. A good engineer can read between the lines. A jerk with a degree asks for the same thing in a different format to make himself feel important. A good engineer listens to good ideas, no matter their origin and provides guidance. A jerk with a degree listens only to other engineers with similar experience and education levels. A good engineer is a teacher. A jerk with a degree will always be just that, a jerk. Good engineers also have more friends, participate in more interesting discussions, complain less, and command far more respect.

Obtaining an engineering degree does not require intelligence, creativity, ingenuity, or properly understanding the process of filing for or searching for a patent. It requires money and math skills. I've seen it a hundred times.

Finally, at the risk of being banned on my second day I will say: Cyrus, get over yourself. If you don't like a post, can't understand it, or you feel that you're above providing some good advice to an amateur, then by all means stop reading it and move on. Go have a beer, read a book about what engineers USED to do, and leave the innovations to the open-minded.

EDIT: This link is great! http://www.aircraftdesign.com/Advice2Inventors.html
Here's a quote from it...
"Maybe getting such "nut letters" says something about me - after all, I'm the guy with the patent for a jet aircraft with the engine mounted backwards (for VSTOL). Or, maybe the rest of the engineers think it's funny to stick me with them. Actually, I enjoy seeing new thoughts - good or otherwise - but I do dread having to tell someone that their beloved brainchild isn't going to work, or that it might work but probably not have enough benefit to be worth the trouble."

^Good engineer.

 

[Cyrus]

For what it's worth, I just joined this forum and have an opinion on this subject.

I would much rather read the opinion of a creative individual with a HS diploma than an arrogant, jaded, elitist with an engineering degree. I have worked in engineering long enough to know the difference between a good engineer and a jerk with a degree. A good engineer can read between the lines. A jerk with a degree asks for the same thing in a different format to make himself feel important. A good engineer listens to good ideas, no matter their origin and provides guidance. A jerk with a degree listens only to other engineers with similar experience and education levels. A good engineer is a teacher. A jerk with a degree will always be just that, a jerk. Good engineers also have more friends, participate in more interesting discussions, complain less, and command far more respect.

Obtaining an engineering degree does not require intelligence, creativity, ingenuity, or properly understanding the process of filing for or searching for a patent. It requires money and math skills. I've seen it a hundred times.

Finally, at the risk of being banned on my second day I will say: Cyrus, get over yourself. If you don't like a post, can't understand it, or you feel that you're above providing some good advice to an amateur, then by all means stop reading it and move on. Go have a beer, read a book about what engineers USED to do, and leave the innovations to the open-minded.

First off, your post is extremely rude. But, putting that aside, the point of this thread was to show that at a minimalistic level, some effort needs to be shown by the person posting their invention/and or idea. Simply slapping together some sketches in MS paint and asking for analysis doesn't cut the mustard. The fact that you think getting an engineering degree simply "requires money and math skills", but not "intelligence, ... or properly understanding the process of ...searching for a patent" is telling. As an undergrad, I specifically had to do patent searches on an idea - we were told to (And, no surprise, it was for a design course). I really fail to see what part of my thread eludes you. The premise is quite simple: please put more effort when posting new ideas. I also never said I was above anyone, I simply said those who don't know should be instructed on how to formulate a proper explanation of their ideas to save everyone time.

I'm also not sure why you're giving me a quote from a link I specified - I know what it says, I read it...which is why I linked it.

 

[Redbelly98]

How long has PF been around?

It started in 2001; the current format started in 2003. More details are here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/library.php?do=view_item&itemid=83

(Sorry about the brief off-topic post.)

 

[tchuck]

First off, your post is extremely rude. But, putting that aside, the point of this thread was to show that at a minimalistic level, some effort needs to be shown by the person posting their invention/and or idea. Simply slapping together some sketches in MS paint and asking for analysis doesn't cut the mustard. The fact that you think getting an engineering degree simply "requires money and math skills", but not "intelligence, ... or properly understanding the process of ...searching for a patent" is telling. As an undergrad, I specifically had to do patent searches on an idea - we were told to (And, no surprise, it was for a design course). I really fail to see what part of my thread eludes you. The premise is quite simple: please put more effort when posting new ideas. I also never said I was above anyone, I simply said those who don't know should be instructed on how to formulate a proper explanation of their ideas to save everyone time.

I'm also not sure why you're giving me a quote from a link I specified - I know what it says, I read it...which is why I linked it.

I agree. It doesn't suit my point to be rude and I apologize.

However,
It's apparent that the point of your thread is to express personal frustration and assert your own educational status, as opposed to a genuine interest in helping people. Aside from contradicting yourself repeatedly and blowing this whole "too many pretend engineers" thing way out of proportion, you use condescending expressions and assume everyone with a brain agrees with you. I'd fill this reply with your quotes but I think if you read the thread over again you will see what I'm trying to say.

I said "...a PROPER UNDERSTANDING..." in regard to patents, not that you didn't have to do it once in a class. Engineers take and successfully complete English classes as well but they don't all know how to spell. As an engineer with working experience I'm sure you can agree.

I posted a quote from your link because it demonstrates how your "issue" is dealt with by someone who's interest lies primarily in helping people.

No amount of regulation or rule making is going to stop rookies from having ideas, though it may stop you from hearing about them. Even if the perfect (in your opinion) set of rules were created, how do you ensure that everyone reads them? Lots of folks enjoy giving advice and join forums like this to facilitate that desire. Others join these forums to learn something as opposed to engaging in stimulating conversation. I joined just so I could use the "search" function... Considering the aforementioned "signal to noise" ratio, it behooves us to tolerate the occasional overzealous and under prepared inventor. I think it's incredible that we can share ideas on forums like this without any regulations ("crackpottery" excluded). The best we can do is to assume patience and provide guidance.

 

[Brian_C]

For what it's worth, I just joined this forum and have an opinion on this subject.

[snip long-winded drivel]

I hate to burst your bubble, but many of the greatest scientists and engineers were not likeable people at all. See Isaac Newton. Being a good "teacher" and having lots of friends is no substitute for technical skill. Likewise, creativity without formal education is useless. Any doofus can draw a pretty picture in a CAD program, but that doesn't make them an engineer.

 

[FredGarvin]

Yahoo Answers here we come.

 

[Bystander]

"Pretend Forum Admins?" How many times has this topic arisen over the life of PF? Couple times a year at least --- someone gets jaded with the "direction" things are going --- makes a suggestion regarding "vetting/credentials" of the membership, "n-tiering" subfora, banning this, banning that, banning the other, putting together a "smart FAQ" to screen posts --- and totally ignores the fact that Greg is NOT into banning people, public chastisement of idiots, or driving himself and Warren insane trying to manage a multi-tiered monstrosity.

Someone peeves, bores, appalls, offends, or otherwise does unspeakable things in your cornflakes --- IGNORE them.

 

[Cyrus]

"Pretend Forum Admins?" How many times has this topic arisen over the life of PF? Couple times a year at least --- someone gets jaded with the "direction" things are going --- makes a suggestion regarding "vetting/credentials" of the membership, "n-tiering" subfora, banning this, banning that, banning the other, putting together a "smart FAQ" to screen posts --- and totally ignores the fact that Greg is NOT into banning people, public chastisement of idiots, or driving himself and Warren insane trying to manage a multi-tiered monstrosity.

Someone peeves, bores, appalls, offends, or otherwise does unspeakable things in your cornflakes --- IGNORE them.

Then perhaps the entire engineering section should be shut down? But seriously, do you even acknowledge there is a problem?

Again, I never proposed that anyone be banned or chastised, I simply said people should post with more care. It's staggering how many people are spinning what I said.

 

[Bystander]

Then perhaps the entire engineering section should be shut down? But seriously, do you even acknowledge there is a problem?

Again, I never proposed that anyone be banned or chastised, I simply said people should post with more care. It's staggering how many people are spinning what I said.

"Problem?" Certainly. Always has been, and that problem is that people are people --- you and I have not set up our own fora run the way we'd like Greg to run his, therefore, we're neither one in a position to criticize what is and ain't allowed here --- you and I take a little more care constructing posts than we perceive as common practice in the PF subfora, and are in a position to gripe about generally sloppy thinking and presentations of "ideas."

Greg put together a spectacularly successful forum --- with success comes popularity with the ignorant masses --- with that popularity comes a reduction in the signal:noise. C'est la vie.

 

[tchuck]

I hate to burst your bubble, but many of the greatest scientists and engineers were not likeable people at all. See Isaac Newton. Being a good "teacher" and having lots of friends is no substitute for technical skill. Likewise, creativity without formal education is useless. Any doofus can draw a pretty picture in a CAD program, but that doesn't make them an engineer.

My bubble is fine, don't worry.

Let me put it more simply so you can follow:

I wasn't equating technical skill to likability, or education to creativity. I was criticizing the methods and motives of the OP. Both parties in my "good engineer..." example are assumed to be perfectly capable engineers with plenty of technical skill. My point was that one gets results and one doesn't. Like it or not, interpersonal skills are important in science as well as business. If you think it's not true in the real world, you're only fooling yourself.

I see your Isaac Newton and raise you an Albert Einstein.

"...creativity without formal education is useless." -That's just silly.

Had you read the thread, you would know that contrary to the title, the topic is "pretend inventors" if such a thing exists. The title of "inventor" requires zero formal education or training. No one referenced is trying to perform engineering without a license.

I don't want to argue about this anymore. My intention was to express my opinion and suggest an alternative. I think I have said what I have to say. Anything further would be argumentative and redundant.

 

[drizzle]

Then perhaps the entire engineering section should be shut down...

Haven’t I told you!

Listen Cyrus, I really admire your cleverness, but that won’t give you the right to seclude people who’re interested in science, any science, from searching/learning/whatever their own way and post it here! Try to be more patient and guide/help/teach/whatever you want IF you want to! No one is forcing you.


P.S. Sorry, I know you don’t want me to post in your thread… But had to

 

[Cyrus]

Had you read the thread, you would know that contrary to the title, the topic is "pretend inventors" if such a thing exists. The title of "inventor" requires zero formal education or training. No one referenced is trying to perform engineering without a license.

Then why are people posting non-stop inventions in an engineering sub-forum?

I don't want to argue about this anymore. My intention was to express my opinion and suggest an alternative.

What is your alternative? So far, I only see people putting their hands up in the air and saying "oh, well" - that's not an answer. Well, it's an answer if you don't care, I suppose. Chuck, I've seen this problem for 6 years, you've seen it for two days. Your perspective is no where near the same as mine.

 

[russ_watters]

This thread has run its course. We thank everyone for their input and will take the suggestions under advisement. Thead locked.