Suggestion Reverse Direction of Physics Forums: Old Friends and Experts Gone

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The discussion highlights concerns about the current state of Physics Forums (PF), with members expressing dissatisfaction over its shift from a technical community to one dominated by students seeking basic homework help. Many long-time users feel that the absence of experienced professionals has diminished the quality of discussions, leading to a proliferation of simplistic questions that detract from in-depth technical conversations. Suggestions include renaming the forum to attract a more knowledgeable audience and enhancing professional engagement through debates and targeted outreach. There is a consensus that while homework help is valuable, it should not overshadow the need for expert-level discussions. The overall sentiment reflects a desire to restore PF to its former status as a hub for serious scientific discourse.
  • #51
TurtleMeister said:
By the way, my fiance loves your avatar. :)

Thank you.
 
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  • #52
Cyclovenom said:
Thank you.

And not "Thank her"? :wink:
 
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  • #53
Cyclovenom said:
Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...

I'm just as saddened as anyone else by the loss of high-profile members such as these, but new experts join the site every day. If anything, we look too fondly on our past, and spend too little time recognizing and showing appreciation for our newest talent.

We don't nominate new HH and SA folks very often, after all.

I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.

Perhaps we need to spend more time actively looking for "hidden talent" in new posters, and sending PMs and public messages thanking them for their contribution and support. Maybe a few mentors (or a group of well-intentioned members... headed by Cyrus?) could form a sort of "professional welcome wagon?"

I also think that we should implement a rating system, and encourage everyone to rate threads they feel are of high quality. These threads will then rise to the top in listings and search results, naturally improving the apparent quality of the site. Google captured the search market by reliably ranking pages by quality and relevance, and delivering the best results first.

And, yes, it's not without irony that Cyrus, one of most problematic and unprofessional members we've ever had, is now telling us how the site does not meet his standards for professionalism...

- Warren
 
  • #54
chroot said:
I'm just as saddened as anyone else by the loss of high-profile members such as these, but new experts join the site every day. If anything, we look too fondly on our past, and spend too little time recognizing and showing appreciation for our newest talent.

Again, as I've said: I don't see new qualified people posting in AE/ME forums.

I also think that we should implement a rating system, and encourage everyone to rate threads they feel are of high quality. These threads will then rise to the top in listings and search results, naturally improving the apparent quality of the site. Google captured the search market by reliably ranking pages by quality and relevance, and delivering the best results first.

There is also the problem of repetative topics. Some things get asked over and over again, becuase people don't use the search function to find similar threads.

And, yes, it's not without irony that Cyrus, one of most problematic and unprofessional members we've ever had, is now telling us how the site does not meet his standards for professionalism...

- Warren

I said we are loosing some of our tallent pool, particularly in Engineering. Anyways, I'm your favorite member on PF, admit it. You can try discrediting what I said based on my naughty behavior, but that isn't going bring in new people (But it does make for good tv). :wink:
 
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  • #55
chroot said:
I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.

This is all part of the same problem. Yes, in the past, sometimes someone did post a thread-ending post. But, more often, a well-formed post didn't end the thread, but would lead to more questions and more discussion once the initial question was answered. I think this is the lack of intellectual curiosity Cyrus is talking about.

We used to get questions, even from students, that didn't have simple answers. They were people seeking more information than you could get out of a textbook or in their courses. The questions would require delving into the literature and piecing together information from multiple sources and sometimes coming to the conclusion that there really wasn't an answer to the question, but lots of indirect evidence that really opened up discussion.

Now, too often, the questions getting asked are so basic that all anyone needs to do is point someone toward a textbook (because students don't read books anymore).

Though, I'm trying to figure out if this is a problem with the direction of PF, or with the current generation of students in general. Just the other day, I actually had to show one of my students (halfway through the semester in sophomore year) that the textbook has an index and how to use it. And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.
 
  • #56
Moonbear said:
And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.
But how do you know whether someone who has never had a training in the subject, and thus has no relevant textbooks, is asking the question or someone who is currently taking a class?

Homework questions can be identified based on the phrasing of a question, but the origin of other questions is often obscure.
 
  • #57
Moonbear,
The new generation sees the internet as you used to see the library. If you have a question about a specific problem, you could go to the library and search around for the answer by reading through tens of books or you could ask a colleague or a lecturer and he could direct you to the "right" book. Now it is a case of doing a search on the internet and reading through tens of web pages or asking a colleague or online expert (a pfer for example) to find the "right" resource. Nothing has actually changed, just the medium of information and communication. I am stuck in between both generations. I know how to use books and the interent and I use them both as efficiently as I can.

Saying that students don't read books anymore doesn't mean anything, they read internet resources or gather information in the most efficient ways available. You can't punish people for wanting to be spoon fed, it's natural to take the easiest route. IMO a textbook is also a form of spoon feeding, where all the topics are layed out nicely with worked examples and questions for each chapter and answers in the back. It's a lot easier than finding all the resources and reading them all to glean the required information.

Also, sometimes the simple questions are the ones that generate the click that helps someone to understand something. I'm against people just posting their HW and expecting us to give detailed answers, but that's why there is the HW template and if it is not used properly, I don't feel bad ignoring the post or asking for more information or attempts of an answer before sharing my thoughts.
 
  • #58
chroot said:
I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.

I'm certainly no expert, but this happens to me all the time. It's kind of annoying...not that one can do anything about it, though.


As far as the general "depletion of quality" thing...this is something that happens to every forum on the Internet as it grows. I have seen tons of forums grow up from small, motivated memberships, to booming giants of intellect, and finally to unmanageably large swamps of mediocrity, as the popularity of the place begins to attract people who are only passing interested. PF has done a good job staving off that final transition for a while, but I get the feeling that its grip is slowly weakening.

I think part of the problem is that the leadership gets bored. I don't see any "PF Mentors" doing much besides locking threads, answering HW questions, and posting in GD (and this goes double for the owners, who are practically invisible!). Can't really blame them; they probably posted a lot of interesting stuff for a while and then got tired of doing the same thing all the time. Unfortunately, I think a key part of a forum remaining high-quality is to have an active leadership to keep it fresh. That is, they who are in charge must actively work to make the place what they want it to be; not just delete posts and ban unruly members.

I don't have a good solution, though...I know that every time I have authority at any forum (I've owned a few and moderated others), it starts to feel like a job, and it is hard to really maintain interest. Perhaps the PF Mentorships need to be recycled. Perhaps PF needs to appoint "writers" whose job it is only to post interesting stuff on a regular basis, and not moderate threads. I've tried similar things in the past, with not much success; you can't really expect anyone to do some task on a regular basis without paying them.

Everyone eventually has to ask themselves, "Why do I come to X forum?" And if the answer is "Because X forum needs me" rather than "Because I think it's really interesting", you can bet that person won't stay.
 
  • #59
arildno said:
Lots of the early students here at PF, Moonbear, are busy right now with early careers both professionally and familially.

They are the first-generation of helped students, and thus their inability (rather than unwillingness) to participate at PF will be more noticeable than, say for the generation 10 years from now.

I was going to post this exact thing. I joined way back in the day as an undergrad and PF served my needs well for homework help as an undergrad, for some research help and stimulation as a grad student and now as a postdoc I try to make some helpful posts when I find a minute or two. It is much easier (and somewhat less taxing) given my amount of free time currently to make a quick post on something interesting in GD than to spend some real effort in the homework section. I actually would love some free time to help out with HW, but no time.

It is sad to see old members move on but eventually things change (as Zz said) and things evolve. I don't think PF is any less technically proficient than it was so long ago. And having been around here for a while, there is a definite ebb and flow in the forums (well the ones I visit) with what is posted and the frequency of posts made there.
 
  • #60
Ben Niehoff said:
Everyone eventually has to ask themselves, "Why do I come to X forum?" And if the answer is "Because X forum needs me" rather than "Because I think it's really interesting", you can bet that person won't stay.

That's exactly how I feel lately. I get tired of correcting misinformation about aerodynamics all day long, and never having a discussion with someone that knows about the subject.
 
  • #61
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.

EDIT: Furthermore, this might be useful excersize for students, as explaining things to others can help them enhance their own understanding.
 
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  • #62
Galteeth said:
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

It won't work, for HS students way too often questions they can't solve are "Advanced" - no matter how "Beginner" they really are.
 
  • #63
Galteeth said:
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.

EDIT: Furthermore, this might be useful excersize for students, as explaining things to others can help them enhance their own understanding.
As Borek said:

It is only whe you are proficient in the field that the distinctions beginner/intermediate/advanced make much sense.

If you struggle with the borrowing of tens in subtractions, for example, that feels very advanced for you.
 
  • #64
Galteeth said:
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.

You are assuming that members here, especially the new ones, actually read and pay attention to such things, and know what those mean. Would you like to make a guess how often the Mentors have to move threads that are posted in the wrong forum?

Zz.
 
  • #65
I think another thing that is also against us is that, it seems, that we have a large number of broad topic posts that would take a lot of time to answer. I find myself asking people to pare down the post to be more specific. That usually kills a thread right there because it's usually someone who has a homework due and doesn't want to put any thought into it. It's nature of the beast I guess, but it makes it difficult to have decent discussions when someone wants you to explain a year's worth of undergrad in a single question.
 
  • #66
I would like to chime in with my two cents. I have been a member of the forums since '05 and have seen this "change" Cyrus is referring to. I found this forum though a google search because I was trying to prepare for my first uniphys course. I did some searching and found a very vibrant and diverse community of people who loved to actually understand things. A lot of these discussions I found had the same flavor as those you would have with the other handful of trully interested students in a class with the instructor after class. That, "I want to understand more", spark only a few people in a given class/group have when greeted with new subject matter. I think just as a lot of people here, my life has changed big time in the last 4 years and I don't have the same time to devote to my non-work/family interests like I use to. I don't think that is disimilar to many here especially in this economic environment where "more for less" becomes the de facto standard in almost everything. I have never been a big poster but I do try to make this a daily stop to check in on the haps. My only real "complaint" about PF has been the high frequency of political banter of late. I'm follow politics quite heavily but I really try to limit the discussion of them because inevitably most turn into a us vs. them argument and rarely anyone walks away feeling any differently about the subject than they did before. In the end I believe PF is a victim of its own success. It's no longer that "niche" community of "nerds" it once was.

P.S.

I too can't stand the IM speak. I had to tell one of my subordinates just the other day to quit using it in their work emails. Take the extra step and TYPE THE WHOLE WORD!

U IS NOT EQUAL TO YOU
 
  • #67
How about a test that members can take to indicate their level. The tests can also be topical, like the subject GREs. Maybe one test can be used with questions at many levels. Then, the correctness of each answer can be evaluated to determine at what level the member is.

Then, members can be given, separately, read and write access to certain forums based on their level.

"At the end of the day", the test results could always be overriden by a mentor, of course, in either direction.
 
  • #68
Moonbear said:
This is all part of the same problem. Yes, in the past, sometimes someone did post a thread-ending post. But, more often, a well-formed post didn't end the thread, but would lead to more questions and more discussion once the initial question was answered. I think this is the lack of intellectual curiosity Cyrus is talking about.

We used to get questions, even from students, that didn't have simple answers. They were people seeking more information than you could get out of a textbook or in their courses. The questions would require delving into the literature and piecing together information from multiple sources and sometimes coming to the conclusion that there really wasn't an answer to the question, but lots of indirect evidence that really opened up discussion.

Now, too often, the questions getting asked are so basic that all anyone needs to do is point someone toward a textbook (because students don't read books anymore).

Though, I'm trying to figure out if this is a problem with the direction of PF, or with the current generation of students in general. Just the other day, I actually had to show one of my students (halfway through the semester in sophomore year) that the textbook has an index and how to use it. And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.

It might be a problem with students in general. I can only speak from my experience, but "teaching to the test" has taken on a whole new level in recent years. When I was i was in high school (98-02) there was already systematic cheating that was overlooked by the teachers. Since the metric for judging teachers is performance of students on tests, there's no incentive for them to discourage this. The problem has seemingly only gotten worse. My ex-girlfriend of a few years ago was a high honors AP Bio student, and couldn't tell me what a mitochondrion was or how DNA worked (or what state Chicago was in for that matter). This is only an anecdotal report from one school, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a more general phenomenon.
 
  • #69
turin said:
How about a test that members can take to indicate their level. The tests can also be topical, like the subject GREs. Maybe one test can be used with questions at many levels. Then, the correctness of each answer can be evaluated to determine at what level the member is.

Then, members can be given, separately, read and write access to certain forums based on their level.

"At the end of the day", the test results could always be overriden by a mentor, of course, in either direction.

Having a test one must take to join is the hallmark of a website that takes itself way too seriously.

Like I wrote earlier, we don't post on Physics Forums because Physics Forums is some noble cause or great idea in the abstract; we post on Physics Forums because it's interesting and fun. If you remove the "fun" and the "interesting", this all evaporates.

I think it's unrealistic to expect any sort of category system to work perfectly. As long as most people follow it most of the time, it's fine.
 
  • #70
Ben Niehoff said:
Having a test one must take to join is the hallmark of a website that takes itself way too seriously.

Like I wrote earlier, we don't post on Physics Forums because Physics Forums is some noble cause or great idea in the abstract; we post on Physics Forums because it's interesting and fun. If you remove the "fun" and the "interesting", this all evaporates.

I think it's unrealistic to expect any sort of category system to work perfectly. As long as most people follow it most of the time, it's fine.

All that's needed is for members to be aware of the problems and be active in telling people who do make lousy posts to stop. The only solution to the problem is by self correcting (i.e all of us have to take part in it). If the mentors simply lock (or delete) the threads, that won't stop people from continuing to make lousy threads. Its only if other members say "Type properly and don't waste our time with basic questions Google can answer" that visitors will get the impression that such things are not 'culturally' tolerated here by members if they start posting. They can go to Yahoo! questions if they want to participate in that kind of discussion.
 
  • #71
Ben,

Access tests are becoming increasingly common on the internet. Usually they take the form of, "Are you really a human?" Sometimes, they require one to regurgitate some random points of the organization's policy that the participant is obliged to read before joining. I'm just suggesting the same basic idea, but with a much more physics flavor. It has nothing to do with taking these forums seriously or casually. It is merely a response to the increasing bedlam of the internet in which these forums opperate.

Not everyone comes here because they think that it's interesting and fun. For instance, I spend most of my time here in the homework forums, and I would be surprised if even 10% of the posters there were enjoying themselves. They just want to survive. They come here for solid, accurate help. I'm not saying that there is a huge problem with bad help in the homework forums. What I'm saying is that not eveyone shares your motivation for being here. And, furthermore, I get frustrated more than I have fun in the other forums (which is why I mostly stay in the homework forums) because I find that a lot of posters there stubbornly cling to there misconceptions. I do not think that it is fun to argue with someone over and over about some basic point that they obviously are too lazy to consider. I think a lot of people just come here to vent.

Out of curiosity, where on these forums do you have fun?

Cyrus,

It is fine to recognize what is needed. The question is, are we going to get it? No, we are not, not if we expect it to just fix itself. I continue to see even seasoned members (with 1000 posts or more) breaking policy by either letting the newbies slide, or worse, placating them. Not many non-mentors are willing to say, "Hey, stop breaking the rules." It is not pleasant (for me, at least), and certainly not personally rewarding, to constantly admonish people. I see it as a slippery slope. If members see that, in spite of their admonishments, the problem continues to get worse (I see it this way), then why bother. It is not self-correcting.

I suggest that, instead of addressing the problem after it happens, we should address the problem preemptively.
 
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  • #72
This new feature for the educational background is good, thanks staff!
 

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