RF Network for 2-Way Communication, Security, 3.5x1.5mi Community

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around designing an RF network for two-way communication within a 3.5 x 1.5 mile community, focusing on security, low power consumption, and cost-effectiveness. Participants explore the suitability of different technologies, specifically comparing Xbee and Lora, while considering the specific requirements of the application, including data handling and environmental challenges.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the final goal of the RF network, suggesting that the end use will significantly influence design choices.
  • One participant describes the need to pull data from 1000 controllers, each with 34 data points, and the requirement to control motors remotely.
  • There is a discussion about the coverage area being challenging due to obstacles like houses, trees, and buildings, raising questions about the feasibility of different network types.
  • Participants debate the advantages and disadvantages of Lora and Xbee, noting that Lora is half duplex while Xbee is full duplex, which may impact the ability to control and monitor simultaneously.
  • Some participants mention that Lora is generally used for monitoring, while Xbee can handle both monitoring and controlling tasks.
  • Concerns are raised about the bandwidth limitations of mesh networks and the potential issues with data transmission in a city environment with obstacles.
  • One participant suggests using cellular modems for communication, citing existing infrastructure, but others express a desire to avoid the costs associated with cellular solutions.
  • There is uncertainty about the best approach, with participants seeking further input and clarification on the technologies involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether Lora or Xbee is the better choice for the application. Multiple competing views remain regarding the effectiveness of mesh versus star networks, the feasibility of cellular solutions, and the overall design considerations for the RF network.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the bandwidth capabilities of mesh networks in urban settings and the implications of not having line of sight for star networks. There are also discussions about the potential need for additional infrastructure or investment to achieve the desired communication capabilities.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals or organizations involved in designing RF communication networks, particularly in urban environments with specific requirements for data handling and control systems.

btb4198
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I need a RF network that has this :
1) two way communication.
2) Security
3) can work in a 3.5 x 1.5 mile community : with houses, trees, buildings and a park ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_Hill_North,_Victoria).
4) have about 1000 endpoints.
5) low power and low cost

would Xbee be better or would Lora ? and why ?
 
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Please help me understand. What is your final goal? Sounds somewhat like a part of a local wifi project. The end use is going to play a major part in the design and component choices.
 
jim mcnamara said:
Please help me understand. What is your final goal? Sounds somewhat like a part of a local wifi project. The end use is going to play a major part in the design and component choices.

I am pulling data from 1000 controllers. Each controller has 34 data points for monitoring . I am going to write back to the controller to start and stop a motor. all the data will go back to a collector . I am planing to only have one collector but I might need more if there is too much data. but really there will only be 34000 data points/ Tags.
 
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anyone?
 
btb4198 said:
3) can work in a 3.5 x 1.5 mile community : with houses, trees, buildings and a park ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_Hill_North,_Victoria).
That's a pretty wide area to try to cover with an RF network. Would you be able to install a cellular modem card in each endpoint/controller?
 
yes I am
 
which would be better Lora or Xbee and why?
 
btb4198 said:
which would be better Lora or Xbee and why?
Can you tell us what you know about each, and what you think the advantages/disadvantages would be?
 
Lora is half duplex so you can only send data or listen for data that at a time.

Xbee is full duplex so you can do both at the same time.

Lora is lower power than Xbee.
Lora seems to mainly be used for monitoring.
Xbee seems to used for both monitoring and controlling .

Xbee does a mesh networkand Lora does a star neworks

That is the most important things I know about the two but I still do not know with one is best for my application.

I think Xbee just because it is full deluxe and I want to be about to start /stop a motor for a website, so I need to be about to control and monitor at the same time.

I think lorawan class C can do that but then it is no longer lower power.

So I really do not know with one.

It is a city to maybe a mesh network is best to used, because you can use repeaters and go around certain objects, but since Lora is a star network you and cannot...

Ok what do you guys think ?
 
  • #10
btb4198 said:
Xbee does a mesh networkand Lora does a star neworks
But can you get the bandwidth you need out of a mesh network? It can be very problematic to get a lot of data through a mesh network.
btb4198 said:
It is a city to maybe a mesh network is best to used, because you can use repeaters and go around certain objects, but since Lora is a star network you and cannot...
So you're saying you will not have line of sight over this 5 square mile service area? That will be problematic for a star RF network as you say.

You didn't say much about my idea of using the cell phone network for your communication. If you put a cell phone modem in each controller node, the rest of the infrastructure is already there... (We do this for some of our RF device networking at the company I work for)
 
  • #11
berkeman said:
But can you get the bandwidth you need out of a mesh network? It can be very problematic to get a lot of data through a mesh network.

So you're saying you will not have line of sight over this 5 square mile service area? That will be problematic for a star RF network as you say.

You didn't say much about my idea of using the cell phone network for your communication. If you put a cell phone modem in each controller node, the rest of the infrastructure is already there... (We do this for some of our RF device networking at the company I work for)
So we do that right now, but We want to break away from it because of the cost for each cell modem.
We have over 1000 pumps out there.
 
  • #12

berkeman said:
But can you get the bandwidth you need out of a mesh network? It can be very problematic to get a lot of data through a mesh network.

So you're saying you will not have line of sight over this 5 square mile service area? That will be problematic for a star RF network as you say.

You didn't say much about my idea of using the cell phone network for your communication. If you put a cell phone modem in each controller node, the rest of the infrastructure is already there... (We do this for some of our RF device networking at the company I work for)
it is a City so no line of sight.
There is a lot hills, trees and building.

Look up the area
 
  • #13
  • #14
does anyone have any questions, that might help you guys help me ?
 
  • #15
anyone ?
I really need help with this.
I am new to this subject
 
  • #16
btb4198 said:
So we do that right now, but We want to break away from it because of the cost for each cell modem.
We have over 1000 pumps out there.
btb4198 said:
anyone ?
I really need help with this.
I am new to this subject
I don't see a different solution, unless you and your company are willing to invest in an infrastructure equivalent to the cellphone network. It's nice that you are turning to the Internet for free advice, but maybe you and your company should consider spending the money to hire consultants in your local area who are skilled in your local wireless infrastructure laws and protocols, to see what the lowest cost alternative is for you. You may be able to purchase a license for some wireless modality that is available only to license holders, for example. Best of luck.

IBTL...
 
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