Rotating frames desynchronization

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of clocks in rotating frames, particularly focusing on the desynchronization of clocks on the Earth's surface due to its rotation. Participants explore concepts related to simultaneity, the effects of rotation on time measurement, and the implications of non-inertial frames in the context of relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that while clocks on the Earth's surface are mutually at rest, they become desynchronized due to the rotation of the Earth and gravitational time dilation.
  • It is mentioned that only inertial frames agree on simultaneity, and that rotating frames exhibit different behavior.
  • One participant explains that clock desynchronization also occurs in linearly accelerating frames, highlighting a fundamental obstruction in rotating frames that prevents global Einstein synchronization.
  • The Sagnac effect is introduced as a phenomenon that illustrates the impossibility of achieving global synchronization in rotating frames.
  • A concrete example is requested to clarify the concept of simultaneity among clocks on Earth, with emphasis on the criteria for their disagreement.
  • Another participant proposes a thought experiment involving a rotating ring in free space to demonstrate the failure of transitive synchronization among clocks, contrasting it with ideal clocks in inertial frames.
  • Mathematical details regarding the synchronization process and the resulting desynchronization are discussed, with specific calculations mentioned for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement on the implications of clock desynchronization in rotating frames. There is no consensus on a single explanation or model, and multiple competing views remain regarding the criteria for simultaneity and the effects of rotation.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the complexity of gravitational effects when considering Earth-bound clocks, as well as the potential dependence on specific definitions of synchronization and simultaneity. The discussion also highlights the unresolved nature of mathematical steps involved in the synchronization process.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying relativity, non-inertial frames, and the synchronization of clocks, particularly in the context of rotating systems and their implications for time measurement.

  • #61
pervect said:
term 2 represents "the relativity of simultaneity" and is responsible for the issue under discussion

Given the numerical approach above, you basically apply the result from the Einstein train thought experiment around a closed loop of "trains", summing together the second term around the loop.

Ha! I like that.
 
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  • #62
WannabeNewton said:
The simplest simultaneity convention that makes use of light signals along the rim to and fro observers is Einstein simultaneity and as you know this will not give rise to a valid global time coordinate for the family of observers on the rim. On the other hand if you use the Einstein time of the inertial frame fixed to the symmetry axis as the global time coordinate for the family of observers on the rim then you will get a consistent global simultaneity convention and it will just be given by the simultaneity surfaces of the observer at the center of the disk. The observers on the disk will agree on simultaneity of events anywhere and everywhere as per this convention-it's trivially transitive because it's just the synchronous time of an inertial frame. Keep in mind this simultaneity convention only works because of axial symmetry.

Per our follow up discussion on another thread ("Synchronizing rotating clocks"), there is another convention that does work by sending signals only around the rim, see post 70 linked here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=732892&page=4. Interestingly, even though the signals only go around the rim, they likely also synchronize the clocks on the rim to an axis centered inertial coordinate system -- despite there being no signals sent from the axis or from any other point at rest with respect to the axis.
 

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